Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[Whoop]

My point still stands- even an assistant CHL coach / (good) ex NHL player would know what he is doing.

I can unequivocally say that is not true.

You'd be surprised.

Just because you played a professional sport doesn't mean you will be a successful professional coach.

[Heathen]

I wish you people would learn to separate the System (god I hate that term, it's formation and tactics ffs) and Winter. Winter didn't invent the System, it's not dependent on him.
In business, you can have MBAs from LSE, Wharton etc and try and implement the best most proven and successful business startegy in the world but if you're not any good at communicating it to your employees or not any good at man management you are going to fail!
I don't know whether Gordon and Petersen are right or Winter really is the genius you all think he is but I know which there's more evidence for as of now.

[Pookie]

Just because you played a professional sport doesn't mean you will be a successful professional coach.

Agreed. Wayne Gretzky. Case closed.

[jloome]

Either they do endless passing drills, but have no idea what the heck the bigger picture is of what the system is, or they don't.

Either his comment that Winter is just like Gullit makes sense to you, or it doesn't.

I believe Gordon, and I think it's ridiculous not to.

According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

[Pookie]

I don't know whether Gordon and Petersen are right or Winter really is the genius you all think he is but I know which there's more evidence for as of now.

So, Peterson's career took a backwards step under Winter? A player that we got in exchange for allocation money? Really?

And Gordon, a player who had his best career statistics in Red at the age of 29, equally suffered under Winter's shortcomings?

[Whoop]

Agreed. Wayne Gretzky. Case closed.

There are way more examples than just Gretzky.

[Pookie]

^ prime one though. Best player, ever (arguably), but couldn't coach.

[GeorgeBest]

As far as coaching goes, I said to him that to me, Winter resembles Ruud Gullit. He said: "I've played for both of them. They're the exact same person."

In 4 1/2 years of mayhem, this could be my favourite TFC quotation.

He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.

Gordon's description here sounds about as plausible as anything. I was at the Philly game, I have seen confusion.

[Pookie]

What's the point of Winter trying to explain to Alan Gordon how to play attacking for 4-3-3 if he knows that Gordon is a journeyman who is just a filler....? It's like teaching a 30 year old hockey player to handle the puck without looking at it. It's Fundemental A, B, C's. How did Alan Gordon get into football again?? Oh yea.. baseball player- ok..

In your example, does the hockey coach simply teach the 10 AHL/ECHL players the game plan or does he work with everyone on the same system?

That plan may work fine for the 10 players but what happens when the other 8 take their shifts? Does he simply hope that when they do, they adopt the "Canadian" style?

At some point, you have to teach the same game plan to everyone. They either learn it and buy in or you move them out.

You highlight how silly it is to try to teach Alan Gordon how to play an attacking style, how silly is it to teach an Eckersley to simply send it long when he is capable of more?

[Oldtimer]

Calling Gordon "respected" as one poster here said is a bit of an overstatement. "Liked" is more like it.

You can always count on Gordon to speak his mind. That's why Grant Wahl found him so quotable. I'm not sure I would characterize him as "extremely intelligent" as one poster here has.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's summarize what most of us agree on:

(1) I think we all believe the story that started this thread, although there is no secondary verification, it's heresay, and a casual conversation can always be misinterpreted. That being said, it's plausible.

(2) We all agree that the players seem confused and disorganized

(3) I think most of us agree that most of our players, no matter what the NCAA standard is, or what is typical, or who the coach is, or the turf or the weather, couldn't string very many passes together.

Where there is some disagreement is whose fault is that:

Theory #1 - Winter is failing to communicate how to play the "system." Whether it is coaching inexperience, cultural differences, poor English, it's Winter's fault. At least some players like Gordon who are struggling or are shipped out say that they are having problem understanding the coach and his methods, and doubt his ability. Supporting evidence is this conversation with Gordon, and some player's comments to Roogsy.

Theory #2 - TFC has a lot of crap players who couldn't understand anything but the most basic kick-and-run football. The problems so far are due to the inability of the players. This could be due to NCAA training (which is disputed by some), poor squad building, lack of academy players, etc. Evidence for this view is evident every game, where we see players make simple passes that go out of touch, etc.

OK, I have it clear in my mind now. Carry on.

[Heathen]

So, Peterson's career took a backwards step under Winter? A player that we got in exchange for allocation money? Really?

And Gordon, a player who had his best career statistics in Red at the age of 29, equally suffered under Winter's shortcomings?

I'm talking about overall evidence of Winter's ability that I've seen so far. In the 25 or whatever games tell me how many has he outcoached his opposite number or made a tactical change to influence the game in our favour.
I don't see the point of the argument your making about Peterson and Gordon, it's not about their individual performances, frankly I'm more than happy to see the back of Peterson as you infer he wasn't very good to begin with. It's their views on Winters running of the team that bother me not the influence he had on their careers, they're gone I don't care about them anymore.

[Beach_Red]

In your example, does the hockey coach simply teach the 10 AHL/ECHL players the game plan or does he work with everyone on the same system?

That plan may work fine for the 10 players but what happens when the other 8 take their shifts? Does he simply hope that when they do, they adopt the "Canadian" style?

At some point, you have to teach the same game plan to everyone. They either learn it and buy in or you move them out.

You highlight how silly it is to try to teach Alan Gordon how to play an attacking style, how silly is it to teach an Eckersley to simply send it long when he is capable of more?

You can teach all you want, not everyone will learn it. Using the hockey example, would there be any point in trying to teach a bunch of ECHL/AHL guys to play like an NHL team? If they could do that, they'd be in the NHL.

The only thing we can really agree on is that TFC hasn't won enough games.

So, I think Whoop is right, they've switched gears and whatever "plan" (call it system, call it culture, call it whatever you want) they had at the beginning of the season has been changed. Who knows for how long, but Winter and Mariner now have two and a half years left on their contracts and would probably like to get another contract somewhere - maybe here, maybe not - when it's done.

[Pookie]

You can teach all you want, not everyone will learn it. Using the hockey example, would there be any point in trying to teach a bunch of ECHL/AHL guys to play like an NHL team? If they could do that, they'd be in the NHL.

But you have to teach them all a system. You've got 18 players that take to the ice and there has to be a game plan. While you might tweak the plan to cater to your strengths, not all 18 are going to be strong at the plan you adopt.

Those that aren't strong, are going to need practice time to get good at the system. To suggest they can't learn is silly.

The NHL is filled with players that were once stand outs in Junior only to have to adopt a new style of play in order to earn a spot on the big team. Tim Brent, broke into the NHL as a shut down/PK guy this year. He had 67 points in 53 games in Junior hockey. He adapted.

Peter Zezel, one of the best shut down guys we've had, had 33 goals in one season with the Flyers. 5 years later, he was playing with Berg and Osborne as our primary checking line. In Junior, Zezel had 47 goals with the Toronto Marlboros. He adapted.

The NHL is full of players that have had to adapt to a specific role that supports a system. Hockey players can learn. I'm sure that soccer players can too.

Anyways, perhaps the game plan has changed or perhaps the game plan is the same and the parts have changed. Just because an older player has been brought in doesn't exclusively mean that they are going for it now. Frings' value is also in his ability to teach and lead our younger players.

[v00d00daddy]

There is no interpretation of this other than that it's incredibly negative for Winter. Period

Well...just to challenge this oh so fact laden statement.....

If Gordon said that some of the guys "just don't get it".....please tell me how the only way to interpret that is negatively on Winter of all people

For all we know...Gordon himself didn't get it either.

And that should come as no surprise.

One of the main reasons a lot of these MLSers never made it beyond MLS is because they don't have the ability, or have not been exposed to playing a different brand of football.

Personally...I'll still wait until I see what Winter and de Klerk can do with some more time.

Winter may very well be the second coming of Gullit in North America and a complete flop but Alan Gordon's assesment of this coach is not a replacement for time.

Winter needs time to see if he can succeed.

Again...this tidbit of info has been stretched and contorted to conform to everyones already made up mind....when, in actuality...the only fact here is that we don't know if Winter will be a success or a failure YET!

Unless you've already written him off as a failure and want him fired. There have been a few of those opinions but not many.

Time will tell folks.

Good luck to Alan Gordon.

[v00d00daddy]

You can teach all you want, not everyone will learn it. Using the hockey example, would there be any point in trying to teach a bunch of ECHL/AHL guys to play like an NHL team? If they could do that, they'd be in the NHL.

The only thing we can really agree on is that TFC hasn't won enough games.

So, I think Whoop is right, they've switched gears and whatever "plan" (call it system, call it culture, call it whatever you want) they had at the beginning of the season has been changed. Who knows for how long, but Winter and Mariner now have two and a half years left on their contracts and would probably like to get another contract somewhere - maybe here, maybe not - when it's done.

But you have to teach them all a system. You've got 18 players that take to the ice and there has to be a game plan. While you might tweak the plan to cater to your strengths, not all 18 are going to be strong at the plan you adopt.

Those that aren't strong, are going to need practice time to get good at the system. To suggest they can't learn is silly.

The NHL is filled with players that were once stand outs in Junior only to have to adopt a new style of play in order to earn a spot on the big team. Tim Brent, broke into the NHL as a shut down/PK guy this year. He had 67 points in 53 games in Junior hockey. He adapted.

Peter Zezel, one of the best shut down guys we've had, had 33 goals in one season with the Flyers. 5 years later, he was playing with Berg and Osborne as our primary checking line. In Junior, Zezel had 47 goals with the Toronto Marlboros. He adapted.

The NHL is full of players that have had to adapt to a specific role that supports a system. Hockey players can learn. I'm sure that soccer players can too.

Anyways, perhaps the game plan has changed or perhaps the game plan is the same and the parts have changed. Just because an older player has been brought in doesn't exclusively mean that they are going for it now. Frings' value is also in his ability to teach and lead our younger players.

I don't think they've switched plans at all. They still want to bring up and cultivate players with a strong emphasis on the fundamentals and the 4-3-3, possession based game. Adding a couple of DP's hasn't changed their stance on player development.

As for the hockey analogy....it has nothing to do with trying to teach AHLers to play like NHLers...it would be more like having to teach AHLers basics like crossovers and skating with the puck on your stick and your head up.

That's where a lot of TFC/MLS players (current and former) are at in terms of skill level.

Its shocking to see grown men being paid to play soccer and not even be able to trap a ball with their weak foot. That's what Winter and co. are trying to eliminate.

The growing pains in doing this are to be expected, in my opinion.

[Beach_Red]

^ I think what's changed is they feel a need to win more games this season. It's one thing to say it's the beginning of a long-term plan, it's another to have the worst record in MLS on your resume. If they had longer-term contracts it might be different but atvthis point Mariner and Winter could see how the season was going to play out and likely how next season would play out. There's no one above them at TFC who can evaluate what they're doing and the company will likely have new owners soon.

They need to win more games.

And, getting back to the hockey analogy (I admit I'm a lot more comfortable with it), you have to have them all playing the same system, yes, but it has to be 1) a system they can all play, and 2) a system that's effective against your opposition. Lots of hockey teams with "less talent" have won more games than they should have by using effective game plans. In fact, pretty much every hockey team with a lousy record gets better by going back to basics, playing defensively and grinding out wins. Has any last place hockey team ever said, "Let's play a style like the '85 Oilers; fast-paced, high-skilled, entertaining hockey."

I think Winter and Mariner have thrown out the plan they were given in the off season and are trying to win more games this season and good for them.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

As for using Preki as an example of "MLS experience" this is called argument by selective observation where you count the hits and forget the misses when discussing evidence that supports your argument. Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmid are both coaches with extensive MLS experience, do they not count because one coach didn't work out? Preki should not be used to slam every coach that has worked in MLS.

If you ask me, Winter was cleaning out the lazy complainers and I am glad the players that left did leave.

This board is so very schizophrenic it almost gives me whiplash. One day we are praising Gordon and bemoaning his injury as the key factor in us not scoring and the next day he's lazy and useless and we're happy he's gone.

Just sayin', Roogs

[profit89]

It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

Good analysis.

[Roogsy]

Again I point to the lack of faith you continually exhibit without having given him long enough to fix the previous regime. Both arguments are just as specious and pointless.

Lack of faith? That is only applicable in the face of reasons why you SHOULD have faith. Give me those first and then tell me that faith should be given and that it's unreasonable not to.

Faith should not be given freely. That's credulity. And considering this organization's inability to show a modicum of competence, it would be wiser for fans to show at least some skepticism as opposed to overwillingness to believe anything because they've been told to.

[19Barrett19]

According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

Winter does not like harden he has no other choice to play him at the moment you will see this Saturday in Kansas the backline will be

Eks-------Viator-----Iro------Broman/Youras

nobody want Harden and he cant trade him because in reality we need him at the moment just to fill in a spot. TFC is on the right track. I hope these boys can show everyone including myself that this team is going up not down anymore. I have faith in Winter and De Klerk . A win in Kansas and everybody is on the same band wagon again. Kinda reminds me of those leaf fans that talk shit all the time. Mo fucked up this team point blank. John Ferguson Jr. Fucked up the Leafs so on and so on. Burke will fix the leafs and so will Mariner Winter and De Klerk. Go TFC

[Roogsy]

Just sayin', Roogs

Saying what Vox? This board was overwhelmingly happy with Gordon's performance. Find me one very negative poster about Gordon before he was traded? Just one. Then tell me that these negative comments about Gordon didn't all of a sudden appear out of thin air after he left and made the comments?

[Oldtimer]

Meh, I don't think people loved Gordon, Roogsy, it's just that he was the only target man we had, and we need to play with one to add dimension to our attack. Otherwise we don't score.

[Roogsy]

I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

There are some here who say ridiculous things like "if you don't like what you see then get out"...well if you don't like the level of North American talent, maybe MLS isn't for you and you should go back to following the EPL? Because Winter arriving isnt' going to change the talent level of North American soccer. All he's going to do is frustrate himself for 1 or 2 years that he isn't working with soccer prodigies that have the talent to play in the top leagues in the world. You'd think he wouldn't have realized this fact before he took on the job. Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces and get the results they can. Meanwhile we try to turn Harden into Heitinga.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

Saying what Vox? This board was overwhelmingly happy with Gordon's performance. Find me one very negative poster about Gordon before he was traded? Just one. Then tell me that these negative comments about Gordon didn't all of a sudden appear out of thin air after he left and made the comments?

I'm not arguing that people who criticize Gordon now haven't changed their tune. I think you are correct in that assessment.

At the time you made that post, there hadn't really been much criticism of Gordon. It seemed like you just took Thrillos' comments and ascribed them to the board, kind of like an argument by selective observation.

Anyway, I didn't mean anything by it. Just a little ribbing. Sorry to offend.

[Oldtimer]

Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces

So I would place you as holding Theory number 1: It's Winter's fault.

[Roogsy]

Not offended at all Vox.

It was just an observation. Because I myself was never a huge Gordon fan although there is no denying the team had more punch when he was on the pitch. Nonetheless, there was no Gordon "hate" before but there appears to be plenty now. Is it because people truly feel he is a shit player or because they don't like to hear what he had to say?

To me it seems like people only like to have their ears tickled. Nobody wants to know what's behind the curtain.

[ensco]

According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

There's now too much evidence to the contrary. Much of it is just using your own eyes and ears, what else is there to say? Winter has lost the room and isn't teaching and/or can't teach. His problems run deeper than that, the team's chemistry on the field is not good enough, and he lacks the most basic leadership/people skills (this week's example was insulting Nana after the trade in public).

It's not "arrogant" if it's obvious. If you don't think it's obvious, it's a free country.

As for the "time" argument that others are fixated on....enough. It's not enough time. But it's not a fair or perfect world. Winter is spitting the bit. It's enough time for me to decide I'll be cutting my TFC spend next year, big time.

[ExiledRed]

According to the Beckham experiment, Gullit wasn't even present much of the time. That doesn't gel with what we've seen of Winter. So maybe there are some elements that are and some that aren't; for one, he likes Harden, which smells of Gullit.

But to "think it's ridiculous not to," is just arrogant. You're not prescient. You have no idea whether he's being completely frank, honest and accurate. Maybe he is, but to suggest that other possibilities are "ridiculous" has no factual foundation.

It is ridiculous not to believe gordon, because the evidence for what hes saying is staring you in the face and has been for the whole season.

its ridiculous to suggest he concocted this story out of bitterness and decided to impart it to some random guy at a train station, and the real reason the team play awkward, below their abilities and look confused has nothing to do with winter, but more to do with alan gordon's attitude.

Given that Gordon definitely wasnt the problem in the team, and doesnt have any excuses to make for himself, I think its more than ridiculous to doubt him.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

Meh, I don't think people loved Gordon, Roogsy, it's just that he was the only target man we had, and we need to play with one to add dimension to our attack. Otherwise we don't score.

Other than the injuries, I liked him very much. I liked his movement, hustle, dribbling, attitude and skill. My admiration of Dutch footballers is boundless, but I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed by the Koevermans signing because it signalled the end of Gordon. I thought he was one of the more well-rounded players we had.

Moreover, I would be more apt to trust Gordon's assessment of Winter than I would the average player. But that doesn't mean he's right.

[Beach_Red]

So I would place you as holding Theory number 1: It's Winter's fault.

His fault because he's the front man but it is possible that he's really only taken over the team now, since he said he was going to start trading guys and suddenly a bunch of trades happened.