"The System"

[Empirical]

All the talk lately seems to be about our "System" or Winters system. Griffit and Johnson have noted that they feel like they fit into it especially well. But what do you think of, what Johnson calls "the free for all Dutch system".

I am by no stretch a soccer tactics expert, but I do know that the Dutch national team has been historically highly individually skilled but poor in terms of results. This scares me. Is it because their "Dutch system" sucks? Is that our system? ahh!

If any of you tactical experts would like to enlighten us on our "system" please chime in!

[CretanBull]

The 'Dutch System' doesn't suck and isn't the reason why Holland have failed to get international results. Their 4-3-3 formation has been used by Barcelona to get results, and a variation on it 4-2-3-1 is used by many top teams (like World Cup winning Spain).

What worries me isn't whether or not the sytem itself is good, its whether or not our players are good enough to play it properly.

[CSO_BBTB]

The "total football" and Dutch national team angle was MLSE marketing hype to sell tickets and not something that came from Winter and DeKlerk. This Guardian blog entry is worth a look because it explains why the diamond 4-4-2 is no longer the dominant formation at the top levels of the sport:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...onathan-wilson

and why various permutations of 4-3-3/4-5-1 have taken its place. Playing a 4-2-3-1 ("point forward" in Dutch terminology used by DeKlerk in web clips) is not hugely exotic and way too much has been made of the whole tactics are too advanced for MLS players angle.

[Shakes McQueen]

The "total football" and Dutch national team angle was MLSE marketing hype to sell tickets and not something that came from Winter and DeKlerk. This Guardian blog entry is worth a look because it explains why the diamond 4-4-2 is no longer the dominant formation at the top levels of the sport:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...onathan-wilson

and why various permutations of 4-3-3/4-5-1 have taken its place. Playing a 4-2-3-1 ("point forward" in Dutch terminology used by DeKlerk in web clips) is not hugely exotic and way too much has been made of the whole tactics are too advanced for MLS players angle.

Good post, and completely agreed. I cringe when people sarcistically deride our focus on "total football", because that angle was never the doing of Winter and De Klerk - it was a marketing slant that got picked up by the media.

- Scott

[TOBOR !]

The "total football" and Dutch national team angle was MLSE marketing hype to sell tickets and not something that came from Winter and DeKlerk. This Guardian blog entry is worth a look because it explains why the diamond 4-4-2 is no longer the dominant formation at the top levels of the sport:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...onathan-wilson

and why various permutations of 4-3-3/4-5-1 have taken its place. Playing a 4-2-3-1 ("point forward" in Dutch terminology used by DeKlerk in web clips) is not hugely exotic and way too much has been made of the whole tactics are too advanced for MLS players angle.

and, in case readers of this thread didn't already know, allow me to point out that Jonathan Wilson is the author of the fine book Inverting the Pyramid: A History of Football Tactics - well worth reading.

[ecospice]

The 'Dutch System' doesn't suck and isn't the reason why Holland have failed to get international results. Their 4-3-3 formation has been used by Barcelona to get results, and a variation on it 4-2-3-1 is used by many top teams (like World Cup winning Spain).

What worries me isn't whether or not the sytem itself is good, its whether or not our players are good enough to play it properly.

We should play more like the Netherlands than Holland. The Netherlands made the WC Final last time round, and played well in the process.

[flatpicker]

^ Second best in the world is shameful.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

The only reason the dutch have done 'poorly' internationally is because their players/team have a habit of imploding/clashing egos

[Beach_Red]

Good post, and completely agreed. I cringe when people sarcistically deride our focus on "total football", because that angle was never the doing of Winter and De Klerk - it was a marketing slant that got picked up by the media.

- Scott

Well, it was more than a marketing "slant." you make it sound like the team fired a coach and GM and then hired a different coach and GM.

The media "picked up" the hiring of a consultant to "identify the culture" and... Well, we never got many specifics, but the whole process was sold by the team as somethimg more than just hiring a new coach. Maybe it was simply another move by the marketing department, but to say it was all media driven isn't the whole story.

[Shakes McQueen]

Well, it was more than a marketing "slant." you make it sound like the team fired a coach and GM and then hired a different coach and GM.

The media "picked up" the hiring of a consultant to "identify the culture" and... Well, we never got many specifics, but the whole process was sold by the team as somethimg more than just hiring a new coach. Maybe it was simply another move by the marketing department, but to say it was all media driven isn't the whole story.

You're debating a point I didn't make. Altering the culture within the team is something Winter HAS talked about on more than one occasion, and something Klinsmann's group was brought in to evaluate.

I'm referring specifically to the ongoing blithe references to "total football". This is not something of Winter or de Klerk's doing.

- Scott

[Wooster_TFC]

"Total Football" is the marketing slant, not the fact that there was a new coach and a new tactical system for the team.

In reference to Johnson's "free for all" comment, I think it's the interchangeable-ness of the 4-3-3 that he's referring to. For example, if he's playing left wing and the CF drops back to pick up a pass and he cuts into the middle, in TFC's system, he's now the CF and the CF should be slotting into LW for him. Most MLS teams don't have that setup, and expect the LW to bust their ass back into position in order to support the defence.

[nickio]

I don't mind the marketing spin on it- it's their job, but I know the difference. The fact that this system will require quality knowledgable players is quiet obvious at this point- don't see anything wrong with that. Now comes the execution...

[CretanBull]

The "total football" and Dutch national team angle was MLSE marketing hype to sell tickets and not something that came from Winter and DeKlerk. This Guardian blog entry is worth a look because it explains why the diamond 4-4-2 is no longer the dominant formation at the top levels of the sport:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...onathan-wilson

and why various permutations of 4-3-3/4-5-1 have taken its place. Playing a 4-2-3-1 ("point forward" in Dutch terminology used by DeKlerk in web clips) is not hugely exotic and way too much has been made of the whole tactics are too advanced for MLS players angle.

I agree with the above point, but disagree that 4-2-3-1 isn't above our player's abilities to play it properly. That formation requires wing-back style full-backs and forward-wide players who can track back on defense (like Lahm and Schweinsteiger) . It also relies heavily on a play-maker who can distribute the ball from the center of the midfield (like Ozil). Most importantly it requires the off-the-ball awareness and movement (that we haven't seen in 4 years) to know when to make the transitions - the interplay between chargining full-backs and the wide players

It's not difficult to stand in position in the 4-2-3-1 formation, but to make use of it's attacking strength requires a pretty high level of footie IQ and intuition. It's a fairly fluid system - like colapsing into 4-5-1 in defense, wide players dropping back, full-backs playing high up the pitch etc - and that's the weakness of most MLS/NCAA trained players. Also, with so many MLS team crowding the mid-field and swarming the ball, the central play-maker has to be very good with the ball at his feet and the other 3 forward players have to constantly be putting themselves in an open position to take passes to relieve pressure on the play-maker. Again, none of those abilities are the hallmarks of MLS/NCAA trained players.

[nickio]

...but disagree that 4-2-3-1 isn't above our player's abilities to play it properly...

misread, disregard

[trane]

All the talk lately seems to be about our "System" or Winters system. Griffit and Johnson have noted that they feel like they fit into it especially well. But what do you think of, what Johnson calls "the free for all Dutch system".

I am by no stretch a soccer tactics expert, but I do know that the Dutch national team has been historically highly individually skilled but poor in terms of results. This scares me. Is it because their "Dutch system" sucks? Is that our system? ahh!

If any of you tactical experts would like to enlighten us on our "system" please chime in!

Realy????? Poor in terms of results?????? Making it to the finals what four times, including in the last world cup, and a smallish country, that is poor??? Hmmm sure there are no USA but no other country is.

[Empirical]

Realy????? Poor in terms of results?????? Making it to the finals what four times, including in the last world cup, and a smallish country, that is poor??? Hmmm sure there are no USA but no other country is.

I don't think there is a single indicator that supports that. They have a higher GDP/capita than Canada and have had a history of left leaning governments, so that indicator would be one of the least flattering.

Call me crazy but maybe all these fancy formations are not so helpful. The MLS all-stars (a jamble of players who have never really played as a team) seem to do REALLY well historically against some of the worlds top clubs.

[Red I]

I don't think there is a single indicator that supports that. They have a higher GDP/capita than Canada and have had a history of left leaning governments, so that indicator would be one of the least flattering.

Call me crazy but maybe all these fancy formations are not so helpful. The MLS all-stars (a jamble of players who have never really played as a team) seem to do REALLY well historically against some of the worlds top clubs.

I think you're misreading trane's post - he wasn't saying the country is poor, but emphasising sarcasticly that their results do not actually equate to poor results.

I think every football coach would call you you crazy, as formations are the foundation of strategy, positioning, movement, etc. It helps to know where everyone is at every moment of the game.

Your point about an all-star team that hasn't played together can actually be successful does give credence to the arguement that with a high-talent team, a free-flowing system (which is a characteristic of the Dutch 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1) is actually both attractive and yeilds results.

[mclaren]

The "total football" and Dutch national team angle was MLSE marketing hype to sell tickets and not something that came from Winter and DeKlerk. This Guardian blog entry is worth a look because it explains why the diamond 4-4-2 is no longer the dominant formation at the top levels of the sport:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...onathan-wilson

and why various permutations of 4-3-3/4-5-1 have taken its place. Playing a 4-2-3-1 ("point forward" in Dutch terminology used by DeKlerk in web clips) is not hugely exotic and way too much has been made of the whole tactics are too advanced for MLS players angle.

Really, how many teams in the whole WORLD would you say actually play TOTAL FOOTBALL right now? Maybe 1 or 2 if that. You're right, it was all just MLSE marketing hype on overdrive.

[Red I]

"Total Football" is the marketing slant, not the fact that there was a new coach and a new tactical system for the team.

In reference to Johnson's "free for all" comment, I think it's the interchangeable-ness of the 4-3-3 that he's referring to. For example, if he's playing left wing and the CF drops back to pick up a pass and he cuts into the middle, in TFC's system, he's now the CF and the CF should be slotting into LW for him. Most MLS teams don't have that setup, and expect the LW to bust their ass back into position in order to support the defence.

^
100% Marketing, agreed

[ag futbol]

Call me crazy but maybe all these fancy formations are not so helpful. The MLS all-stars (a jamble of players who have never really played as a team) seem to do REALLY well historically against some of the worlds top clubs.

There’s nothing crazy about the 4-3-3 formation itself. There are already other teams in the league using it.

Now if you were to say a very attack orientated 4-3-3, well implementing that successfully in a league with so much central tendency will be tough.

[Cashcleaner]

The Netherlands National Team is quoted by many football experts as the best team to never win a world cup and I don't think we are going wrong by trying to emulate their style of management and development. I know some people are probably sick of constantly hearing "Total Football" or "System" or "Winter's Vision" but there is substance to what's being said.

"Total Football" does mean something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Football) and Winter's "system" implements. Personally, I like the idea of encouraging that level of flexibility out of players, though I can totally understand the drawbacks of the strategy as well.

Now, whether or not all this will actually work in MLS is a different story altogether. The concept itself is solid, but I agree that it's unproven in this league.

[Pookie]

FIFA 11 on the xBox is creating a lot of coaching experts.

[Blowing Bubbles]

I agree with the above point, but disagree that 4-2-3-1 isn't above our player's abilities to play it properly. That formation requires wing-back style full-backs and forward-wide players who can track back on defense (like Lahm and Schweinsteiger) . It also relies heavily on a play-maker who can distribute the ball from the center of the midfield (like Ozil). Most importantly it requires the off-the-ball awareness and movement (that we haven't seen in 4 years) to know when to make the transitions - the interplay between chargining full-backs and the wide players

It's not difficult to stand in position in the 4-2-3-1 formation, but to make use of it's attacking strength requires a pretty high level of footie IQ and intuition. It's a fairly fluid system - like colapsing into 4-5-1 in defense, wide players dropping back, full-backs playing high up the pitch etc - and that's the weakness of most MLS/NCAA trained players. Also, with so many MLS team crowding the mid-field and swarming the ball, the central play-maker has to be very good with the ball at his feet and the other 3 forward players have to constantly be putting themselves in an open position to take passes to relieve pressure on the play-maker. Again, none of those abilities are the hallmarks of MLS/NCAA trained players.

at this point how many "NCAA" players are we even using anymore?

Only 2 of the 10 outfield starters today could you pigeon hole in that manner - Harden and Sturgis. And they won't be here long anyway.

I'm finding the bashing of "MLS/NCAA" players and their apparent lack of skill and IQ as a convenient whipping boy in this thread.

[James Oliphant]

FIFA 11 on the xBox is creating a lot of coaching experts.

Now now....they're on the PS3 too...

[Beach_Red]

at this point how many "NCAA" players are we even using anymore?

Only 2 of the 10 outfield starters today could you pigeon hole in that manner - Harden and Sturgis. And they won't be here long anyway.

I'm finding the bashing of "MLS/NCAA" players and their apparent lack of skill and IQ as a convenient whipping boy in this thread.

That's interesting. And the goal was scored by an NCAA guy, wasn't it?

So, only two (plus Frei) from NCAA starting for TFC, how does that stack up against other MLS teams?

[Mikey]

FIFA 11 on the xBox is creating a lot of coaching experts.

Perhaps we should have a collection and buy one for Winter....?

[Detroit_TFC]

Get a bulk order, some of our players seem like they could use the help too. More A and less LB+Y, guys!

[[NBF]]

There's a thread called, "Gordon Dishes on TFC and Winter", I forget who started it but it makes alot of sense when Alan Gordon is saying that the team was unorganized and the players were confused as to what management wanted them to do.

I remember watching the small segments with Bob deKlerk explaining the TFC system to Andy from the "Off The Pitch" program and the TFC preview and post shows, and I myself found it a bit confusing to understand what deKlerk was talking about as far as positioning and duties. It almost seemed like it was a very flexible system, where the players physical attributes would be essential in helping them recover from mistakes and maybe players with high physical attributes and low skill could "get by" on just their natural strengths, but to be successful with guys who are not skilled you almost have to play defensive and invite the attack and rely solely on the counter attack to produce goals. So in other words we definitely need wingers and a solid mobile striker.

[rocker]

at this point how many "NCAA" players are we even using anymore?

Only 2 of the 10 outfield starters today could you pigeon hole in that manner - Harden and Sturgis. And they won't be here long anyway.

I'm finding the bashing of "MLS/NCAA" players and their apparent lack of skill and IQ as a convenient whipping boy in this thread.

You forgot Borman (16 starts). And you forgot Gargan (12 starts). Do you think these guys don't have an "apparent lack of skill and IQ"?

One only has to look at how few college draftees actually end up being starters in this league to see that the college players just don't measure up, unless you dumb down the game.

The cream of the crop can start. The majority will be backups and useful filler (no team could probably survive without their cheap labour).

Winter has quickly reduced the number of college players getting significant playing time from the Preki days.

[barticusz]

Good interview with Koevermans regarding his first game and "the system".

http://www.mlssoccer.com/extratime