Originally Posted by Technorgasm
Actually, with the expanded 34 game season, the estimate is that we'd need 43 points for post-season action.
Yes, TFC has improved the roster
No, TFC has weakened the roster
The trades will have a negligible impact
Actually, with the expanded 34 game season, the estimate is that we'd need 43 points for post-season action.
jloome, re "schoolboy" football, nothing in what I said is about discipline. Every team needs discipline, and time to gel, whatever system they play.
If you saying that certain players can only play in certain systems, we will agree to disagree
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Does your estimate also factor in the additional 2 playoff berths?
With the ungodly (and very gambler friendly) trend of draws in MLS, I'm not so sure things will change too much from start to finish. I'd wager 40-41 at most.
Last edited by ryan; 07-19-2011 at 12:09 PM.
Currently the 10th best team in the league is on pace for 41 points. So you figure over 42 points are needed. And possibly more if more teams start winning instead of all these ties.
So TFC will need about 24+ points in 13 games. That's the kind of pace the current league leaders are on.
Last edited by menefreghista; 07-19-2011 at 12:14 PM.
If someone wins, someone else loses. So if NY/LA/SEA start winning vs mid table teams, the projected playoff total should lower. As long as Chivas/HOU/SJ keep drawing, then pace should keep.
Speaking of TFC specifically, for them to make the playoff requires wins vs those mid table clubs in playoff spots. If we're gaining points and they aren't due to us winning, that should make the 40-41 mark a viable squeeker into 10th.
That's why I think the best projection is based on points per game pace.
As for TFC's chances, its all about getting 7 or 8 wins plus ties. That's what is needed.
If you are not the team with the worst goal differential, perhaps. But that is not the case. Toronto needs an extra point ahead of the 6 teams in front of us just because of our extremely poor goal diff. The likelihood that all teams in front of us slow down is not good, one might, others might increase the record. Which means the current clip of 1.2 points per game is bare minimum to get into the playoffs. That works out to 41 points IF you have a favourable goal diff. Which means TFC needs 42 points minimum to get in, and with all likelihood, 43 to make it more secure.
That's minimum 24 points out of the remaining 13 games, but more than likely 25 if there is a dogfight for that last spot among the competing teams.
Further to Jloome's point. Systems are predicated on the players you have at your disposal. Look at Barcelona they play a 4-3-3. Argentina tried a similar set up with their team and it didn't work you need the right pieces and the understanding that players will be where they are suppose to be.
On giving up the potential of what Nana and Tchani can be, IMO their biggest problem is they have no concept on how to passa ball. Yes they are athletic, but at the end of the day you can find other players that are just as athletic. Having a soccer IQ is something that IMO can not be taught. If you watched Tchani play everytime he had the ball he did one of two things: a pass that was uncontrollable or held on too long and gave up possession. Nana is a decent defender, but at his age if you need to teach him how to pass a ball that is not a good sign. He will never amount to more than a bench player on another MLS player and he is definitely no CMNT material.
To play a possession style game regardless of the formation your spine is. GK, CB, CM need to be a comfortable with the ball on their feet and need to be able to make the right pass and control the game. The two young guys we gave up don't reall fit with that. Also, at that age IMO they are not consider to be prospects because either you can play and contribute or you will lean on the tag of potential.
One last thing I trust the judgment of the FO as they could probably pick out a player after watching them for 5 minutes and have more knowledge and understanding of the small intricacies of what a player should be then any of us. This trade looks short term due to the ages of the players, but IMO it will help both short and long if teh culture of team has changed because the players that have been here have a sense of entitlement or kind of like what Burke is doing with the Leafs
At the risk of repeating myself, evaluating Tchani based on less than half a season on a terrible team is a mistake. He came in without benefit of training camp, and we've had no onfield discipline at all, with lots of players running all over the place....no wonder he doesn't know where to go with the ball! He looked composed as a rookie in NY, he just lost his job to a terrific veteran player (Tainio), that's all.
Where is this "Nana can't pass" stuff coming from? I don't remember ever thinking it, I don't remember ever reading it here, but somehow it's become gospel (just because TFC personnel were whispering it this year, I guess). Nana may not be god's gift to the soccer profession, but I dislike this endless running down of the guy for things we didn't actually see on the field. Harden deserves grief for his passing, Nana doesn't.
I don't love what Burke is doing either, btw, that example does nothing for me. He's a self-aggrandizing blowhard making many of the same mistakes the TFC FO is.
Last edited by ensco; 07-19-2011 at 01:32 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Ensco, I agree that Attakora and Tchani's abilities cannot necessarily be measured based solely on their performances this season. It is entirely possible that they will both eventually develop into solid starters with a change of scenery, as both players acquitted themselves well last season playing under different circumstances with other management/coaching regimes.
However, why can't the same logical reasoning be applied to evaluate the incoming players?
It is interesting to note that your abrupt analysis of TFC management's recent acquistions does not account for the possibility that Johnson, Iro, and Griffit may benefit from expanded roles in a new environment. In fact, Johnson and Iro in particular have had a far greater impact in recent years with their respective clubs than Tchani and Nana, and they are still relatively young players in their own right. Johnson is two years removed from team MVP honors with San Jose in which he led his team in scoring. Last season, he was shifted to the wing and led the team in assists. Iro was a fixture in the central defence for a talented Columbus squad the last 2 years, and he was voted their team MVP last season. His role diminished this season under a new coach. Sound familiar?
I understand your point regarding Tchani and Nana's potential, but I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest that TFC recieved more than an equitable return for those assets.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-19-2011 at 02:18 PM.
^This may be true. Or I may be right to think that these guys coming in, may not amount to much. Who knows?
I expected WinterMariner to make their mark by signing non-DPs (that's where Tainio came from), and by teaching. That's what they were pitched as. The DP moves, that's MLSE there.
We finally get to the international transfer date, and we dump what youth we have for veterans with question marks who aren't playing? In a rebuilding situation?
They haven't done much to convince me that they have an edge in finding players or teaching, based on what we've seen on the field and with these moves.
Last edited by ensco; 07-19-2011 at 02:34 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
These moves kind of have a Mo Johnston feel to them.
Based on the history of all the players involved, there is ample evidence to suggest that they could all excel with their new clubs. Time will tell.This may be true. Or I may be right to think that these guys coming in, may not amount to much. Who knows?
Basic football fundamentals can be taught, but I believe certain abilities such as reading the play, making quick decisions, and effective ball distribution are innate qualities that were lacking in Tchani and Nana this season. Tchani has never been adept in that regard, which is why he was widely acknowledged as a raw prospect when he was traded to Toronto. Nana was solid the last two seasons, but he has never been asked to play possession oriented football during his tenure with TFC, which is likely one of the primary reasons why his play regressed.I expected Winter Mariner to make their mark by signing non-DPs (that's where Tainio came from), and by teaching. That's what they were pitched as. The DP moves, that's MLSE there.
Once again, you're using a short sighted approach in evaluating Johnson, Iro, and Griffit, based on this season alone. If supporters of Columbus and San Jose were to evaluate the players their clubs acquired based on that logic, then the likes of Tchani, Nana, Gordon, and Peterson don't seem to constitute a solid return at all. Furthermore, the age difference among the players involved is not substantial.We finally get to the international transfer date, and we dump what youth we have for veterans with question marks who aren't playing? In a rebuilding situation?
I completely disagree. You're judging Winter and Mariner based on a timeframe of one shortened off season, and one week of their first transfer window.They haven't done much to convince me that they have an edge in finding players or teaching, based on what we've seen on the field and with these moves.
Nonetheless...
Plata
Eckersley
Frings
Koevermans
Johnson
Dunfield
Iro
The players listed above have all been acquired by the new regime, and based on their collective skillset and overall football acumen, I believe they will have a significant impact within the starting lineup in the immediate future.
As for the other acquisitions of the new regime, I think the likes of Martina, Soolsma, Yourassowsky, Williams, Borman, Zavarise, and Griffit have played well enough in the past to suggest that they would be more than adequate in a reserve role.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-19-2011 at 06:00 PM.
Let's say they have an MLS feel to them. The skill level of many MLS players is pretty much the same so finding the right chemistry is a big deal. A big part of that is probably finding players who accept their level and certainly by their mid to late twenties guys in MLS are probably here for the duration. Add an over 30 guy (or two) and some kids and that's an MLS roster.
I dont think Mo would have filled the cracks that need filling.
Also he would have immediately offered them some ridiculous salary.
Moderator
Mo would have signed us 37 central midfielders, and promised them all $400k a year, then once they got to Toronto, spit on them and told them the fine print actually said they get $50k and a velvet bag of marbles.
And our two new DPS would be the Bushwhackers.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
also Paul Dickov
Moderator
No, it would turn out Dickov used us as leverage in his negotiations to get a sweet new contract with Stockport County.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Touche
Ensco I have called out Nana for his lack of passing ability since he started and I got called out many times for that. If you go back and watch tape he rarely makes the correct pass and he usually just hoofs the ball down the field. So if you call that talent then sure he has it spades. You can't be teaching player basic skills when they are suppose to be professionals. I think he got hyped cause he is from here, because if he was from somewhere else there is no way we would have put up with his atrocious passing
How many games should it take to see if a player has skills? A year? Two possibly. Tchani is very athletic and can break up plays, but that is not enough. Regardless of how many games he played with us you can tell if he has soccer IQ. I think he is vastly overrated like many of the kids coming through the college ranks. You have to remeber by the time they graduate college or even go to college they licked up so many bad habits that can't be broken. He is will end up being an average defensive midfielder IMO.
The age difference is as much as you think minus Dunfield so if the coaching staff believes they can help us now and moving forward why not give them that chance? How do you know it is not going to work out? Maybe the players we brought in need a change of scenery. Iro has been a starter for a team that has made the playoffs and had a falling out with his coach This is now Winter's team I expect a lot more now then I did before.
117, if you said that before, mea culpa.
There's truth to the point that he was overrated. He was never going to Europe. But I think now he's being underrated.
As to the rest, none of us know. Cheers.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
These trades remind me of the Marvell Wynne trade. A lot of the same criticisms that are being levelled at Nana and Tchani were routinely levelled at Wynne.
After he left, Wynne went on to start 27 games and all 4 playoff games for the MLS Cup champion. Colorado thought enough of him to give him a big multi-year contract.
Tchani and Nana aren't perfect players, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them going on to have success similar to Marvell in the next few years.
I would like to see TFC hold on to some of these good young players instead of trading them away.
Last edited by GeorgeBest; 07-19-2011 at 06:07 PM.
^ Yeah better coaches should have been able to get better things out of Wynne, and the criticism against Wynne was sometimes excessive IMHO. (As so often around here -- we'll go ballistic on one player for a while, even if the whole team is mostly playing shit.) It was also a typical Preki trade, who wanted a mostly stay-at-home defense to grind out the games.
But then again, we also got Nick LaBrocca for Wynne. One of them is now an MLS all-star, and the other isn't. Plus we got a 2011 third round draft pick -- I guess we got Efrain Burgos for that, too bad he didn't work out.
Im not sorry to have lost either one of them
Wynne was heavily overhyped last year. Started strong at CB but had plenty of disaster games too, and was definitely Colorado's weakest backline link. This year he's been shaky several times.
Fair point, but ...
Labrocca, we traded for Gordon....
Who we traded (with Nana and Peterson) for Johnson.....
Who we traded for........... (if he keeps up his current strike rate).
It's a revolving door of MLS journeyman. Why not develop and keep good young guys. Marvell and Nana could have been the right side of our back 4 for years, if developed properly.
Given the salary cap, I think Winter is going to have a lot of trouble getting CB's who are highly skilled on the ball and great passers as well as good tacklers. Those guys cost a lot of money.
Last edited by GeorgeBest; 07-19-2011 at 07:37 PM.
That's your opinion which I respect. Colorado's management clearly didn't share that opinion because they signed him to a new deal at $300K all in per year.
Getting the most out of players like Wynne is the key to success in MLS. As long as there's a domestic quota and a salary cap every team will have players like that on the roster.
Plata not bad but raw so far
Eckersley pretty good so far
Frings Not played yet
Koevermans Not played yet
Johnson Not played yet
Dunfield Not played yet
Iro Not played yet
what about
Gordon ...in and out in a few months
Tchani ..... in and out in a few months
Stefanovic .... no impact and gone
Martina.... one good game
Yourass.... i've got nothing
Soolsma, sturgis... etc etc i cant even keep up anymore
HOw can you form an opinion on what he's brought in when 5/7 you name as quality have yet to play. The legions of players that have been here so far have got us nicely anchored to the bottom. Isn't that a better measure of what the management have done
My position on Winter has been clear. Yes he did have "less" but if we're all honest, he wasn't able to get much out of what he had, as little as it was. Not encouraging.
Now let's hope he can get "more" now that he has "more". Which should be easier. Expectations should be high now. If they're not, its evidence of pretty much accepting anything served up by MLSE.
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