Why not sign a proven goal scorer like Taylor 'the twink' Twellman. (100+ mls goals).
Yes, TFC has improved the roster
No, TFC has weakened the roster
The trades will have a negligible impact
Why not sign a proven goal scorer like Taylor 'the twink' Twellman. (100+ mls goals).
I think his playing days are over. He's only good for eye-candy.Originally Posted by Empirical
Retired due to concussions, can't play medically or he still would be. He's only 31.
What prompts that notion? It's quite clear some of these guys can't, because they've publicly admitted it, including Peterson and Sturgis.
Good Luck Tony Tchani
http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/20...k-tony-tchani/
Why I think TFC supporters might regret the day that Tony Tchani left Toronto.
Tchani and Nana are the two that I wish could have stuck around both young and with potential with MSL standards. Otherwise, its waite and see for me, although I hope to see much more roster stability going forward.
such a key thing to me.
Amen.
How are they supposed to play with 6 new teammates every 6 months?
^ It is a bit ridicolous.
This formation stuff is overblown. It's beyond comical. It's as if it's a form of expressing superior football knowledge, to act like formation is everything. But really, it's just clouding our judgment.
It's bs when someone says "he's great (or I'm great) in a 4-4-2, but he should be traded (or I should be traded) if we're playing 4-3-3."
Good players, and good teams, move all over the field, and their teammates read and cover for them. That's the manager's job, to make sure everyone understands their responsibilities, that's where formation comes into it, but really, it's not the be all and end all in itself. Every team does it differently, sure, but all this parsing over whether someone's playing central mid or attacking mid is a crock.
Several people have seriously suggested above that Nana was traded because of the new system. Think about that for second. Think about how crazy that is. I could maybe accept this for wingers or strikers, whose roles are affected a bit by 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3, but even then, I doubt it matters much. We all thought Nana was untouchable last year. I don't know what happened to the guy, maybe he's a stiff now, but accepting that the 4-3-3 is why Nana can't play is nuts.
Why does it matter? It prevents us from seeing Nana's story as the tragedy that it is. Maybe it's not Winter's fault, but somehow now we don't even need to ask the question "what happened there"?
Peterson's comments, give me a break. As though "possession football" was something from Mars. It's football. It's about handling the ball in traffic, one touch control, weighting the through ball properly, tackling, marking, ballwinning, exploiting holes, not creating holes yourself, knowing where your teammates are and not hanging them out to dry. It's about making good decisions. In every system. I bet every championship team in every league, at every level, whatever the system they use, play good "possession football".
We listen too much uncritically to the stories we're told by team management. Sometimes they play it straight, sometimes they tell fairy tales. Sometimes the fairy tales work for the players too, so they parrot them. Doesn't mean we need to buy what they're selling.
Our two best young players are gone, for two players who have not played this year, and a striker who hasn't scored in 35 games. As I write this, only 4 out of 215 people don't like the trades.
I bleed TFC red as much as anybody here. I do understand.
We want to believe so badly, but we give our hearts, too cheaply.
Last edited by ensco; 07-18-2011 at 06:49 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Ensco, the general context of your post is valid.
Attakora and Tchani are players with definite upside, but for whatever reason, they both regressed playing in TFC's 4-3-3 system this season. Perhaps it was the formation and possession oriented approach that exposed their flaws, or perhaps there were external factors that influenced the deterioration in their level of play. In any case, Tchani and Attakora were unimpressive in the majority of their appearances, which is why they became expendable. Based on their limited appearances, the loss of Gordon and Peterson can also be considered negligible.
The question is, have Winter and Mariner strengthened the roster with acquisitions that comprise a stronger skillset and collective football pedigree than the players that have departed?
If so, the players that have been added to the roster will be more effective within TFC's 4-3-3 system, or any other formation for that matter, as your post suggests.
Hypothetically, our two young players with the most potential may be gone, but this season, they did not demonstrate the combination of acquired and innate skills that you articulated in describing what constitutes a competent footballer. Gordon and Peterson are oft injured, journeyman players that would rank as backup forwards on above average MLS squads in this regard.
In essence, TFC gave up two underachieving young players with upside and two veteran, injury prone, role players.
In return, TFC has acquired:
-Ryan Johnson, a 26 year old Jamaican International forward who had an impressive showing in the Gold Cup recently, played a vital role as Wondolowski's wingman, and is two years removed from team MVP honors. Johnson is a durable upgrade over the fragile Gordon as a backup CF, and he can adapt to the wing when necessary.
-Andy Iro, a physically imposing, 26 year old defender who was considered a starting CB on a fairly strong Columbus squad last season. A very capable, intimidating, replacement for Attakora, who was likely going to leave as a free agent anyway.
-Leandre Griffit, a 27 year old experienced winger with speed and crossing ability that saw limited playing time as a result of injuries this season. At worst, he should still represent an upgrade over Jacob Peterson, who was terribly overpaid.
-Terry Dunfield, a 29 year old defensive midfielder with tenacity and character. Dunfield is a proven veteran that will be able to replace Tchani's presence in the midfield in the short term.
I'm not giving my heart cheaply. I'm objectively analyzing the potential benefits and consequences of recent transactions. I have been critical of TFC roster moves in the past, but in this case, I think the ends will jusify the means.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-18-2011 at 09:17 PM.
^ Right now it looks like the team is better - more experienced players, for sure.
So, the question is, has the team changed its philosophy since the start of the season?
Absolutely. The new regime still believes that the youth developed from the Academy, and to a lesser degree, the NCAA Draft, are the future of this club. However, calculated risks were taken in trying to accelerate the rebuilding process and provide immediate results in the interim. In light of the recent DP signings, it makes sense to try and provide them with the right supporting cast; a group that is capable of producing results while Frings and Koevermans are part of the nucleus of the club.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-18-2011 at 09:47 PM.
I think evaluating Tchani based on his play over a dozen games for a terrible team is a mistake.
I accept that Nana's value is severely diminished. I have no idea how anyone could have an independent view of Nana's game in 2011 given his limited minutes. I also think the question "what actually happened with Nana" is important, and is being ignored.
Last edited by ensco; 07-18-2011 at 09:21 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
^ What happened is a good question, not just to Nana but to the whole new direction were sold at the Town Halls. I suppose it doesn't really matter as long as the team starts winning.
If I could, I'd put this in my signature.
He wouldn't be the first young player to believe media hype about him and lose his way if as rumoured his attitude wasn't right because he thinks he's ready for a big money contract in a top European league. Beyond that is it really so hard to believe that there could be a significant difference between what Mo Johnston and Aron Winter look for in a centre back? I seriously doubt that Winter would have used a 9th overall pick in the 2008 superdraft to select Julius James and suspect that he may also have taken Omar Gonzalez rather than Sam Cronin second overall in 2009. Not sure what to make of the fact that James was keeping Iro out of the starting lineup in Columbus, but there seems to have been a falling out between player and coach there as well.
Moderator
It's hard to know. Maybe the team planned to flip Tchani for something else all along.
Trading Peterson and Nana doesn't really signal anything from a philosophy perspective, because those weren't Winter guys to begin with. Gordon was tremendously injury prone in his short time here, so again, flipping him may have simply been the pragmatic thing to do.
I think we are extrapolating a bit too much from trading Tchani. Iro and Griffit aren't in their 30's.
Despite the "building process" of Winter, I never thought the plan was to do an NHL-style rebuild with young draft talent. I thought Winter would take time to identify and sign the pieces he wanted for his team, and his system, whatever their ages. Getting there through trades isn't always a straight line.
We traded a young player with rough edges who was surplus to our needs, to help fill a different hole in our lineup. That's just pragmatism.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Thank you for including something I forgot: The example I meant to put in about why we have to be skeptical about what we "hear" about the team. My answer to your question: I think that's a fairy tale, I don't believe what happened relates to Nana's attitude.
Here's my "wouldn't this be reasonable" rumour for you: all Nana ever did was hold off on signing until he saw how things were going under WinterMariner. Winter, neck deep already in the Dero mess from day one, decided that this was evidence of a broader "Canadian entitlement problem" and decided to show who is boss by bullying Nana (and Cann). imho, based on what we know about both those players situations, both were treated unfairly/harshly by the club, for taking reasonable commercial positions towards the club.
As to "wanting something different in a CB", look, is he a good, hard working soccer player or isn't he? I saw him a lot with my own eyes, and I say he is. Trading guys to get precisely "the right fit" is how you wind up with 125 players in 5 years. Young assets are scarce in this league. No manager has the group he wants precisely. Did Winter really try to help him be better, or fill whatever gaps he has?
I realize he may leave. But if he signs with MLS next year, WinterMariner have serious egg on their faces.
Last edited by ensco; 07-19-2011 at 07:11 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Moderator
It is worth noting that the poll question is only if you think the trades have improved the team. Considering how poorly the team was playing, that isn't a high bar to vault over.
When you also consider that we traded away two players who rarely played this season, one player nobody liked, and a young player who wasn't paying immediate dividends, it's not that far-fetched or illogical to reach the conclusion that the team was made immediately better by these trades.
The rest of your post I generally agree with, though I think coaching has it's limitations in making sure everyone understands and carries out their responsibilities. The footy IQ of the players is a major factor as well.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
I'm not sure that Nana's position was quite as innocent as some are making it out to be. It's actually similar to the Academy player who refused to sign a long-term development deal with the club.
It looked suspiciously like Nana was considering trying his luck on the overseas market. Whether that is true or not, it would be totally reasonable for Mariner to conclude that. Trying to get something for him now is totally reasonable. Maybe his new club thinks they can convince him to stay in MLS.
As far as 4-3-3, I don't believe that the formation has that much to do with keeping or moving players. Rather, the more technical game that the team is moving towards demands a different type of player. That player is not the typical youth who grew up playing on rep teams through to NCAA, but there are enough of them around that you can make up a team right now.
Long-term, the academy is trying to develop more technical players. It looks like Danny Dichio, despite the image of English football, is well suited to teach a more technical side. In his own playing, he combined technical skill (some of the goals he made showed that very well) with physicality. That is actually the ideal way to integrate a technical style within MLS:
The final goal especially (starting at 4:30) shows both those factors.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-19-2011 at 07:29 AM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
The problem with this theory is that we know Nana was willing to sign a shorter term deal, but the club insisted on a 4 year deal (and that was probably the MLS classic 2 years + 2 option years).
It was only after Winter froze him out that Nana refused to sign any contract.
True, he was willing to do a short-term deal, and the question that would be raised is why? I can see two reasonable options:
(1) He thinks that his value in MLS is going to go up.
(2) He thinks that when he is a little older, he can get some interest overseas.
It's the second possibility that would particularly make Mariner take stock.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
We can't know for sure, but considering the history of this club, who could blame him?
As it stands now, Nana can sign anywhere in the world for free. But considering that he hasn't yet, I bet he signs the short term deal he wanted with San Jose.
Dunlevy on the Fan just said he knows for a fact that the trading and player acquisition is not done.
curious to see how quickly it comes
It's a very small target to hit - the young player who will be good in MLS but not so good he wants to play in a higher league.
But hey, even Mariner left MLS for a higher league and then came back, so he should understand.
Precisely.
While there are points in here I find valid, relative to Nana, and while it is eloquently stated, this is not the case.
Positioning off the ball and movement off the ball changes dramatically based on tactical approach. No soccer player understands or knows them all instrinsically. Formation and knowledge of where to be when the man on the ball can't even see you is paramount, it's behind the entire concept of maintaining "shape", which has always been one of TFC's problems.
Yes, that is reliant on bringing in the right players. But the right players do not automatically know and adopt a system by instinctively "filling in" or simply "covering" for teammates as you suggest. And the game is moving too fast for players to generally adopt to more than one or two tactical approaches at one time.
I respect the passion Ensco but this isn't reality. What you're describing is schoolboy football, and if players actually adapted and adopted that freely at the professional level, their shape would be incredibly loose and they'd get cut to ribbons -- which, given that the 433 IS pretty much the most adaptive system, is exactly what has been happening to us.
We're not just losing because we have the wrong players. We're losing because there's no team disclipline yet in maintaining shape for more than 20 minutes a game.
13 games left.
39 available points.
we sit here with 18 points, best mathamatical finish is 57 points.
Typically you need 35-40 points for post-season ball.
so . . . are these players enough to secure play offs?
I say next year, but welcome to our new lads and good luck out there.
we are behind you 100%
NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.
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