View Poll Results: Is TFC a stronger club as a result of the recent transactions?

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  • Yes, TFC has improved the roster

    220 89.43%
  • No, TFC has weakened the roster

    5 2.03%
  • The trades will have a negligible impact

    21 8.54%
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Thread: Rate the Trades

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    . (I find the fact that the majority of people here are saying "good riddance" to Tchani among the most amazing things I've seen in 4+ years around here.) Since TFC come out of the trades with one fewer core asset than they went into it with, I am not wild about the deals, but am hoping that Iro is a stud, but that is a big if. Even if he is, if Tchani pans out, WinterMariner may have made the blunder of a lifetime on that second trade
    tchani had some useful qualities. His ability to pass was not one of them. He could break up an attack, but that is Frings' job now. Tchani didn't fit any more.

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    I don't remember reading anything about people saying good riddance to Tchani (Peterson, yes).

    But I'm not sure why anyone would have any attachment to the guy, considering he was here for a very short time. He was decent. I liked him. I would have been intrigued by keeping him on for the future and seeing what he could develop into.

    He could be a good player in this league as he matures, but in no way is Tchani a "protect at all costs" kind of player. Mariner got good value in return for a key position.

    On the Nana question -- yes he's promising too. But I actually think we have a young promising replacement in Doneil Henry. Actually, Henry is a better overall defender than Nana was at 18. Less of a physical specimen than Nana, but Henry is better with the ball at his feet and reads the game better.
    Last edited by rocker; 07-16-2011 at 06:39 PM.

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    I saw a few times during the games when Nana would make a few passes, and Winter would get up and scream something at him. I think Nana's game on the ball was a big part of the problem and probably cause a disagreement and so forth... Nothing new in that, just my observation from seeing the games in-person, something you don't see on TV most of the time.

    Tchani's passing was starting to piss me off, he's just not the right footballer for the system and it was obvious enough times.

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    My $0.02:

    Out:

    I think there could be a bit of an "addition by subtraction" element to these trades. Based on Peterson's post trade tweets and some of his old interviews, he seems like a bit of a Debby Downer. Just getting rid of him and his contract for noting is a plus IMO. Nana is another one who seemed less than committed to the team based on the contract issues he was having. I love his potential but he didn't seem to have the potential to do well in the 433. So while based on the euphoria from previous years it's hard to see him go, it didn't seem like he had much of a future at TFC.

    Initially I was disappointed when we acquired Gordon based on what LAG fans thought of him, I grew to love what Gordon brought to the pitch... when he was on it. He became injury-prone surplus when Da Koef was brought in. I think he was getting about $100k/yr and since he was playing in fewer than half our games and likely moving to the bench, he wasn't worth it.

    Tchani, while he has a great body for a DM and did quite well at not getting knocked off the ball when he had it, as we all know he can't distribute worth a lick. He took waaaay too long to make a pass (whether this was a result of over thinking due to being in an unfamiliar system, who knows) and when he did was often quite inaccurate. Love that potential but, like Nana, his potential was not right for the 433.

    I think the biggest issue with Tchani is going to be his salary. He's GA this year so it's not an issue now but next year he's definitely not going to be. Correct me if I'm wrong I think he's making almost $200k next two years. Right now he's not worth a $200k per year cap hit and I don't think he will be next year either.

    In:

    Admittedly I don't know much about what we're getting back but, Johnson seems like he can cross a ball from the 11 and might be a buy low kinda player seeing as he was SJ's MVP a few years ago. From what I've read SJ's been moving him around between ST and LW which could explain his poor strike rate. I think this trade was more about cleaning out the chaff but Johnson looks like he could be a better fit here than what we gave up.

    Iro is a healthy left footed CM with size. Not sure need to say more based on our current situation.

    Dunfield looks like a decent pick up considering what we gave up.

    Griffit, based on this vid, looks like he's got some skill and could be a 433 kinda guy:



    In the end I think we brought in some potential help and added some flexibility in terms of the cap. Then again right after a trade is the easiest time to be optimistic. Kudo's to Paul, Aron and Bob.

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    Question Tchani - Who can be sure it was best to let him go?

    Ensco and I watched Tchani play TFC in NY last year. He looked like a star in the making. When I heard we got him, I was over the moon. But (perhaps like the coaching staff) it appeared to me that he was strugling here. Perhaps because of the system, injuries, insufficient familiarity with his team mates or other. In any case, I trust Winter, Mariner and de Klerk (WMD= Weapons of Mass Destruction?). If he didn't fit the sytem or he had to be given up for something that made more sense - then so be it. I have alot of confidence in these guys - unlike Ensco!
    "Failure simply isn't an option at this stage. TFC pushed its chips to the middle of the table when it splurged on Bradley and Defoe and reinforced its bet by making savvy acquisitions elsewhere. This collection of players is capable of delivering on the promises made during the close season. There are no more excuses available for TFC. Only success will continue the process of atoning for the past and establishing a higher standard for the future." FOX Sports

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMIN8R View Post
    I have alot of confidence in these guys - unlike Ensco!
    I'm skeptical, not cynical! I'd love to be proven wrong.

    Anyone else think it's interesting that we collectively rate these trades 114 for, with 2 against? Are the Columbus and SJ FOs such proven rubes?
    Last edited by ensco; 07-16-2011 at 09:54 PM.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Wink No conspiracy theories here

    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I'm skeptical, not cynical! I'd love to be proven wrong.

    Anyone else think it's interesting that we collectively rate these trades 114 for, with 2 against? Are the Columbus and SJ FOs such proven rubes?
    CC and SJ have their own agendas. We're not, at present, a playoff threat for 2011. So trades were probably made thinking that we would not come back to haunt. It appears that Iro and Johnson had "issues" where they were - like we had with Nana. Johnson, Iro and Nana haven't seen many minutes other than reserves.

    They dumped and so did we.

    The question should be - did WMD do their homework and get the better "fit" = value. I would argue that, at face value, - they did.
    "Failure simply isn't an option at this stage. TFC pushed its chips to the middle of the table when it splurged on Bradley and Defoe and reinforced its bet by making savvy acquisitions elsewhere. This collection of players is capable of delivering on the promises made during the close season. There are no more excuses available for TFC. Only success will continue the process of atoning for the past and establishing a higher standard for the future." FOX Sports

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    Or is it Johnson for Dax McCarty? According to the announcers on MSG Network (which carries Red Bulls and Sabres games in Buffalo), DeRosario was shipped out because he wanted a new contract and Designated Player money. Sound familiar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmherstNY_TFC View Post
    Or is it Johnson for Dax McCarty? According to the announcers on MSG Network (which carries Red Bulls and Sabres games in Buffalo), DeRosario was shipped out because he wanted a new contract and Designated Player money. Sound familiar?
    and needing cap space to sign Frank Rost as 3rd DP?
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

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    How do I rate the trades of the past week? With a very firm "I dunno"!

    One thing for sure: I would not even want to rate the trades of this week on their own (even I were to wait longer before judging their impact). I think you at least have to include the signings of Frings and Koevermans in any assessment. For example, the trade of Gordon makes much more sense in light of the signing of Koevermans. Losing Tchani is a big surprise, but is understandable in light of the signing of Frings and Dunfield.

    And I think we also have to see what other trades & signings are still coming in the next few weeks before being able to rate anything. I expect at least another CB to be signed for example. Without that, these trades don't add enough in defense.

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    It's hard to rate a trade before anyone has even taken to the pitch, but on paper I'm really happy with the moves. We've gotten stronger where we needed to get stronger, and we got back usable assets for players who either weren't working out, or rarely played.

    Coupled with the new DPs that will be starting Wednesday, and I think our team will be significantly stronger once they've had a chance to gel, which may take a few games.

    I still think we've got work to do, though. Namely, we need another defender at least.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

  12. #42
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    I rate these trades a wash at best.

    The Columbus players have barely seen the field this year, Julius James has been first choice over Iro. What does that say? Johnson has 1 goal in the past 1 1/2 years. I would say that is a pretty poor run of form for a forward. Dunfield is a journeyman player, I liked what I saw for Canada, but he is still relatively unproven as an MLS player.

    What I don't like about these trades, is that TFC will fail to benefit from the development of two young players in Tchani and Attakora. Attakora was one of our best players last year. The failure to re-sign him isn't all on Nana himself, TFC management bears a lot of responsibility here. Is TFC saying with these trades that they are just going to continue rotating a group of journeyman players instead of developing and keeping good young players? If so, how successful has that been in the last 4+ years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I think these trades on their own a slight improvement but nothing significant. They key here is whether this group fits better with the new DPs. And whether it allows certain players to play their natural positions (ie. Ecks & Yourassowki).

    Based on that yes this is an improvement. The next consideration for me will be whether Winter will know how to get the best out of this group. It's no secret I don't rate Winter's coaching ability very highly.
    Agreed on all points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBest View Post
    Is TFC saying with these trades that they are just going to continue rotating a group of journeyman players instead of developing and keeping good young players? If so, how successful has that been in the last 4+ years?
    Now I see it's 127 to 2.

    ensco's first law of poll results: when they look like the election results for third world dictators, the "group" turns out to be wrong a lot more often than you'd think they would or should.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBest View Post
    I rate these trades a wash at best.

    The Columbus players have barely seen the field this year, Julius James has been first choice over Iro. What does that say? Johnson has 1 goal in the past 1 1/2 years. I would say that is a pretty poor run of form for a forward. Dunfield is a journeyman player, I liked what I saw for Canada, but he is still relatively unproven as an MLS player.

    What I don't like about these trades, is that TFC will fail to benefit from the development of two young players in Tchani and Attakora. Attakora was one of our best players last year. The failure to re-sign him isn't all on Nana himself, TFC management bears a lot of responsibility here. Is TFC saying with these trades that they are just going to continue rotating a group of journeyman players instead of developing and keeping good young players? If so, how successful has that been in the last 4+ years?
    To be fair I think Winter and De Klerk see things differently in terms what they define as a young player. In European standards Tchani and Attakora aren't exactly prospects. Guys like Cordon, Henry and Morgan are the true prospects. So what does it matter if its Alan Gordon or Ryan Johnson playing or any other journeyman for that matter? The long term goal is to develop their own players which will take time and hopefully they can succeed doing that.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Now I see it's 127 to 2.

    ensco's first law of poll results: when they look like the election results for third world dictators, the "group" turns out to be wrong a lot more often than you'd think they would or should.
    I kind of regret voting yes.

    I did mostly because I initially liked the Johnson trade. We gave up a player that wasn't good enough (Peterson), a player that is always hurt (Gordon) and a player that was not in the management's future plans (Nana). Plus I think Dunfield was a decent acquisition.

    That being said, in terms of building, we have actually gone backwards. Tchani and Attakora are probably the closest thing TFC had to prospects. Now we have essentially traded our 2 biggest prospects for two projects (Iro and Johnson).

    In the case of the 3 major players we added, TFC was buying low. Sometimes that ends up working out for you if the players can get back to their previous form. But sometimes players never get it back.

    Also, it wouldn't shock me if after everything is said and done, all we have left from the De Rosario trade is a draft pick.
    Last edited by menefreghista; 07-17-2011 at 08:42 AM.

  17. #47
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    ^ Maybe not so much backwards as they've decided the standard "MLS" way to build a team is the way to go. Maybe they've just put off the new direction they'd planned to take the organization for another year or two, but what this looks like is a more typical MLS set-up, a couple of veteran DPs, some guys who've reached their level in MLS and some kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ren989 View Post
    To be fair I think Winter and De Klerk see things differently in terms what they define as a young player. In European standards Tchani and Attakora aren't exactly prospects. Guys like Cordon, Henry and Morgan are the true prospects. So what does it matter if its Alan Gordon or Ryan Johnson playing or any other journeyman for that matter? The long term goal is to develop their own players which will take time and hopefully they can succeed doing that.
    I agree what is defined as a young player or prospect is far different in Europe than MLS. You'll notice in my post I said developing and keeping good young players. Nana is a player that was with the team since he was 18, developed into key player and starter last year and was considered by many to be a cornerstone player. Now he's gone. What is the point of developing Cordon, Henry and Morgan if you give up on them after doing all the hard work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    ^ Maybe not so much backwards as they've decided the standard "MLS" way to build a team is the way to go. Maybe they've just put off the new direction they'd planned to take the organization for another year or two, but what this looks like is a more typical MLS set-up, a couple of veteran DPs, some guys who've reached their level in MLS and some kids.
    Ya. I can agree with that.

    It appears Winter had to learn the hard way that not just any European player can march into MLS and 'tear this league apart'.

    So they had to readjust and actually grab more players with MLS pedigree. But in order to do so some young prospects had to be shown the door.

    I think there is a certain level of self-preservation going on here. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm with ExiledRed on the point that if the results continued to suck, Winter was a candidate for quitting. These moves are probably his last stand.

    A lot of people keep saying that Winter has to make the playoffs in his 2nd season and that this season was a write off from the beginning. But I get a sense that within the TFC FO that isn't good enough. The team needs to be more competitive this year, playoffs or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    A lot of people keep saying that Winter has to make the playoffs in his 2nd season and that this season was a write off from the beginning. But I get a sense that within the TFC FO that isn't good enough. The team needs to be more competitive this year, playoffs or not.
    There is the minor issue of the looming 2012 SSH renewal problem. The issue of keeping a potential star prospect pales by comparison.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    There is the minor issue of the looming 2012 SSH renewal problem. The issue of keeping a potential star prospect pales by comparison.
    That's partly why I think there is pressure from above.

    IF they can reel off a couple of wins right before the renewals go out, you know they will start selling the hope of 2012. "Imagine how great 2012 will be with a full season from Frings and Koevermans!"

    The real question is how long will it take for this essentially new team to gel? I'm guessing about a month? We're already hearing stories that Koevermans isn't fit. Iro will probably need a few games to get into match shape.
    Last edited by menefreghista; 07-17-2011 at 09:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBest View Post
    I agree what is defined as a young player or prospect is far different in Europe than MLS. You'll notice in my post I said developing and keeping good young players. Nana is a player that was with the team since he was 18, developed into key player and starter last year and was considered by many to be a cornerstone player. Now he's gone. What is the point of developing Cordon, Henry and Morgan if you give up on them after doing all the hard work?
    The academy guys don't count against the cap which means they're not subject to the same type of analysis or cost/benefit. If Nana doesn't fit the system now, the repercussions are more evident because his salary could be used by someone who can better fit the system. Henry and co do not have that pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    The academy guys don't count against the cap which means they're not subject to the same type of analysis or cost/benefit. If Nana doesn't fit the system now, the repercussions are more evident because his salary could be used by someone who can better fit the system. Henry and co do not have that pressure.
    This "system" talk has become absurd. At this level this doesn't matter. It's football. The guy is either a good player or he isn't.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    How do I rate the trades of the past week? With a very firm "I dunno"!

    One thing for sure: I would not even want to rate the trades of this week on their own (even I were to wait longer before judging their impact). I think you at least have to include the signings of Frings and Koevermans in any assessment. For example, the trade of Gordon makes much more sense in light of the signing of Koevermans. Losing Tchani is a big surprise, but is understandable in light of the signing of Frings and Dunfield.

    And I think we also have to see what other trades & signings are still coming in the next few weeks before being able to rate anything. I expect at least another CB to be signed for example. Without that, these trades don't add enough in defense.

    Yes,

    I would say that the greatest benefit to TFC to come out of the past few weeks in that by bringing in two top players with proven records of high performance, we add to our team a level of professionalism that we have never had before.

    Now when the other TFC players are at training day in a day out they will have winners around them who will inspire and push them. Koevermans and Frings will command respect from the others and they will trust these guys. I for one have always felt that this was something severely lacking from TFC since day one. Winners bring a winning state of mind with them.

    As Plata charges towards the box from now on he will have more trust that the guy waiting for the ball will put it away. When Frings breaks up yet another play and turns to put a ball through the team will be lifted by his skill and calmness.

    It will add to confidence and credibility in this league as a winning team. It will plant doubt in the minds of the opposition. All things that this team has never been able to do in the past.
    Last edited by Pigfynn; 07-17-2011 at 10:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    The academy guys don't count against the cap which means they're not subject to the same type of analysis or cost/benefit. If Nana doesn't fit the system now, the repercussions are more evident because his salary could be used by someone who can better fit the system. Henry and co do not have that pressure.
    Is there any evidence that Andy Iro "fits the system" any better than Nana? How many CB's are there in the world who have a high level of skill on the ball (to go with tackling and aerial ability) and have the capability to play a Barcelona style possession game? Answer: Not many and most of those cost 5-10 million euros a year. At an MLS salary? If Winter is searching for that, it may be a long long search.

    BTW, I've watched TFC's games this year, what is this "system" you speak of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBest View Post
    Is there any evidence that Andy Iro "fits the system" any better than Nana? How many CB's are there in the world who have a high level of skill on the ball (to go with tackling and aerial ability) and have the capability to play a Barcelona style possession game? Answer: Not many and most of those cost 5-10 million euros a year. At an MLS salary? If Winter is searching for that, it may be a long long search.

    I was making a point with regard to academy vs. players under the salary cap.

    My answer is I don't know, I also don't know what Nana did on the training ground or his attitude so I can't fully say why Winter was not fond of him. I don't know what Mariner sees in Iro that he would be better than Nana. I haven't seen much of Iro but Mariner knows Iro since college so maybe he knows his capabilities. There's numerous possibilities and it's all speculation.

    BTW, I've watched TFC's games this year, what is this "system" you speak of?
    4-3-3, playing out of the back, possession.

    This "system" talk has become absurd. At this level this doesn't matter. It's football. The guy is either a good player or he isn't.
    Bullshit. Gordon was a prime example of someone who played to the best of his ability when he was in Toronto. Do you think he would have been as effective under Preki? All players and strengths and weakness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
    Woah, woah, woah! Does that mean its too soon to be giving eachother hand jobs at this point from sheer anticipation of us tearing this league up?

    I voted yes to the poll by the way... but would have selected a "too soon option had it been there"
    It's never too soon to give each other hand jobs.

    Definitely too soon to tell about the trades though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post

    4-3-3, playing out of the back, possession.
    Sorry, I was joking, well half-joking really. I just haven't noticed much that is "systematic" in TFC's play this year, unless a propensity to backpass to your opponent's forwards resulting in scoring opportunities against is a system.

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    honestly in my opinion I don't think these guys we brought in are going to make the team worse the we already are.

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    This just strikes me as another rearranging deck-chairs move. Can't really say either way how it will work until there are a few games gone with the new line up. DPs included. I just don't get this bring in Tchani (especially considering who left for him) and then a few months later he's gone. Same with Gordon. As for Gordon ALWAYS being injured. He's injured right now. That doesn't mean he is always going to be injured. Now he's gone. Nana was one of the best we've had over the last couple. Gone. I fully expect Frei to go next.

 

 

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