As speculated, Aleman's MLS rights have been traded to Vancouver as the future considerations in the Dunfield deal.
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/so...199/story.html
As speculated, Aleman's MLS rights have been traded to Vancouver as the future considerations in the Dunfield deal.
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/so...199/story.html
Originally Posted by menefreghista
We all can understand Aleman's desire to test himself in Europe, but, if you'll allow me to defend TFC for a moment you might see how what they were asking for isn't that out there and how the Caps and others should be looking for similar things.
Toronto has already invested a year into his development. They are also preparing to set up u15 and u13 programs. In the future, the next Keven Aleman they produce (and dumb luck dictates they will produce one every few years) will have been in their system a lot longer than a year. Developing these kids isn't free. Any club in the world would look to protect itself. Allowing Aleman to dictate things would send a message to every kid in their system that they control the agenda, not the club. The MLS academies could be used -- and drained of resources -- until something better came along and then the player ****s off for nothing.
Could you imagine a Liverpool or Man United or Barcelona or...youth player just up and leaving the club? No, those clubs make sure that they are compensated whenever a youth player leaves. It's basic business.
In Aleman's case, TFC was as much guaranteeing that they would get a transfer fee if he moved as they were trying to keep him for the first team. Since the made it clear he didn't want to commit, TFC essentially did an end around and got a transfer fee for him in the form of Dunfield. Only in MLS would they hold onto his rights, but it is what it is....
I would think/hope the Caps would want to protect the assets they produce in the same way. Just letting tem walk for nothing would be awfully naive of them.
There is little doubt that there is a risk here for Toronto -- he could come back and bite them in the ass -- but I'd argue that it's minimal. The kid is either as good as people hope and will go on to play a long career a LONG way from Vancouver, or he's overrated/peaked and will not be as good as Dunfield.
Think about it. What's the scenario that sees the Caps win this? That he's pretty good, but not good enough to stick in Europe. Then what have you really gained in the trade?
Terry Dunfield, that’s what.
^ He wouldn't have left for nothing. At the very least TFC would have been entitled training compensation if he left our club for Europe (or any other league). When we released him, we gave up our right to compensation - and essentially let him walk away for nothing.
What we traded to Vancouver was his MLS rights, something which we would have still owned and could have still traded to Vancouver if he left us.
Exactly.
Of course, TFC could have locked him up and put him on their actual MLS roster. Its not like the other Academy graduates are being played. Or where those guys better prospects?
One would assume they are considered better prospects, but they are also older. Perhaps showed greater interest in staying?
But to sign him at 16 and unproven?
They did try to get him to sign a letter of intent which to a certain extent was trying to lock him up. Much ado about nothing. Its clear he didnt want to stay here, doubt thatll change. Doubt thatll change with Vancouver.
Yes I can imagine it. Fabregas. Macheda.
These workings are murky by design, but the star kids are heavily recruited and "dictate terms" in academies everywhere.
I've got no opinion on Aleman the player, but management hasn't earned much faith on this. It could be that our handling of this was correct. But it's certainly interesting to look at the bigger trend. Our FO just seem driven to burn absolutely everything they found here to the ground.
Last edited by ensco; 07-27-2011 at 07:19 AM.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Cmon man, thats going a bit far considering how little we know about the player.
Even if it happens its not the end of the world, its one player.
Im gonna step away from this conversation now as it really is much ado about nothing.
uh no we wouldn't, that's the whole point
I was editing while you wrote that. You're right. What I have up there now is more what I wanted to say.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
There were rumors floating around about Aleman's attitude being an issue - stuff like showing up for practice when he felt like it. Sounded like he's the typical hot shot kid that thinks he's already made it. There could be more behind the scenes than TFC just playing hardball with him.
Hope it's not true for Canada's sake, as he won't have much of a career if true.
Aleman had 4 teams from Spain looking at him during the U17 World Cup. They say he's a special talent. What would you do in his case? Sign with TFC at $40K(if that) or try your luck in Europe at 16/17 when teams actually want you. Unfortunately his best move is probably to go to Europe and that is why he wouldn't sign. His agent has things line up for him and TFC were never in the cards.
Under the newer FIFA rules, I don't think Aleman can sign for a European team until he turns 18. Unless he has a Euro passport.
He can play for TFC because its his domestic league.
He can sign and train but he can't play in a first team game until he is 18. Just like those Gambians here that were signed. They trained with the team and then when they turned 18 they were available for selection. Not sure where Aleman's roots are, but I would think he would start at the academy level. Secondly if his attitude is that bad he may be back in Canada sooner than you think.
Don't really get any angst over losing Aleman.
If he is "can't miss" and has Europe aspirations, he won't play in the MLS. If he falls short of expectations he will be an MLS player, of which there are plenty.
It could be a loss, it might not be. No sense worrying about it
If Aleman ends up signing with Vancouver, this will be a great deal from the Whitecaps perspective. However, as the article and others have suggested, Aleman has several trials in Europe lined up, so there are no guarantees that he will ever play in MLS.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-27-2011 at 08:48 AM.
This is exactly why I don't understand the importance people are putting on the academy. At best it will produce serviceable MLS players which, as you say, there are plenty.
I'm sorry, this is a completely presumptuous statement that is tainted with cynicism. The Academy could very well be the lifeblood of this organization, especially with the immense talent pool in Ontario. Granted, the occasional diamonds in the rough will move on to greener pastures overseas, but some of the Academy graduates that sign with the first team could evolve into impact players at the MLS level. Since MLS Academies are in their infancy stages for the most part, I will use the MLS Superdraft as a comparable example. Many talented young players that were drafted from the NCAA have been stellar players in MLS, but weren't quite good enough to attract interest from Europe.
Why is it that the TFC Academy in particular will only produce "serviceable players" at best for the first team?
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-27-2011 at 10:56 AM.
It's not presumptious at all. What Beach Red describes is the current situation.
What you describe is a vision, an admirable vision, but one that is at odds with the current realities.
btw assuming that TFC Academy will draw from "Ontario", that is a loooong way away. There are many good academies in Ontario (looks like most are better than us).
http://www.soccerfame.com/team/tfc-academy/standings
They will spend years just fighting for a Toronto/GTA beachhead
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
^ Because that's all you can count on. NHL teams gave up owning feeder teams (essentially academies) when free agency became a factor and players started having full-time agents. You know you're going to lose the very top prospects so what's left?
What age does FIFA consider you a minor? Under 18 or under 16? In the Sergio Camargo article it said a Portuguese team offered him compensation and a spot to train but he was only 15, which meant his parents were required to move to Portugal with him so they declined.
The difference will be if we produce decent MLS players or starters that don't count against the cap and given that they don't go through the college system, it's more likely that they will not lose any development in between those 3 years.
This is what I have been arguing for a long time. The simple existance of the academy does not gaurantee its success. I would much rather see TFC go out and hire some established youth trainers from around the GTA (guys like Patrick Tobo or Rafael Carbajal) than play this game of patronage with former players.
I also think the inherent limitations of the way MLS allows you to operate will blunt the academy's success somewhat. This thing needs to be managed properly to be successful.
im going to wait and see the finished product before i make comments on how well the academy is working. i do like the idea of carbajal in there tho but doubt he'd be interested in only an academy position
What the heck? Lets just dump the Academy then since there are plenty of MLS players around
Moderator
At best it will provide the team with above-average MLS players, along with the occasional diamond in the rough who will eventually be sold, and turned into additional allocation for the team, and money that must be spent on the club.
Not every good MLS player runs for the border, so saying that "serviceable" players are the best case scenario, is cynical.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
I'd like to believe this, but is there evidence to this effect? As far as I can remember, Canada has had trouble retaining our top prospects. Of course, we are hoping that having teams in Canada will reverse that trend, but as far as I know, it's still just hope.
I agree.
I also think that viewing TFC aspiring to create an environment where they produce good/great footballers out of the GTA as some kind of negative for TFC is incredibly cynical in general.
Next, cue the "how do we know it will even work" sentiment that has permeated every facet of the new regimes approach.
It's sad when they're trying to do something so desperately needed and getting shit on for doing so before anyone even knows what they're looking at.
Ahh well.
Moderator
Our top prospects, yes. And if that trend continues for the country, at least our club will be left with something to make us better, in the form of allocation, etc. Homegrowing our own Maurice Edu's every now and again still benefits the team, even if we transfer them.
But a prospect with the ability to be a simple above-average MLS lifer? Surely most of these players can be retained.
And like I said, this is a best case scenario. My issue was with the "best case scenario" being deemed nothing more than "serviceable" MLS players. That's cynical.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Sounds reasonable. I do think it's possible although I also agree we will lose more than we'd like.
There are plenty but that doesn't mean you throw out the Academy altogether. Far from it.
The Academy model is the path to improve our national standing. God (or Random Chance) knows that we can't rely on the Club system to do it.
An Academy attached to Toronto's system also might produce players that can grasp the system of the first team quicker than others. You are also well aware of their strengths and challenge areas which isn't something that comes from a scouting report. And then there are the transfers which boosts the club's bottom line and "legitimize" the philosophy for aspiring players. Success feeds itself.
As for drawing from Ontario, I think it is a little ambitious to think that a family from Thunder Bay might pack up and move to Toronto/or billet their teenager for a shot at a $42k starting job.
And ensco's comments regarding a fight for existence in the GTA is bang on. SAAC and the OSA have been going at it for years and while they are coming closer together, to think that the Club system can offer the same advantages of private academies (without asking parents for a $3-4k per year) is silly. Yet somehow, they are going to need to co-exist.
TFCA will also be looking to establish itself as being different from SAAC, and different from a new "elite" level within the Club model. To do so, it will have to do an amazing job in explaining contracts, rights and terms to parents who don't see any benefit in focusing on training when their club is winning trophies. It shall be an interesting next decade.
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