Nana traded to San Jose, Ryan Johnson, Dunfield in

[ElvistheEvilScotsman]

Interesting comment about the academy and selling players.

Under-15 and under-13 branches will be added to the existing U-19 and U-17’s, with the goal being to develop players who will improve the top club, the Canadian national team and/or TFC’s bottom line if they become good enough to be sold off.

I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line. I guess the benefit is we get all of the players that are MLS quality for cheap.

[menefreghista]

Unless you think Anselmi is really calling the shots on the ground-floor managerial level, which I don't, there must be a reason Nana was frozen out of the lineup. It's not like Winter arrived in Toronto with a pre-existing bias against Nana.

In that scenario, contract demands or laziness in training would make sense, but I'm certainly willing to entertain any other hypothesis that makes logical sense.

A new Dutch manager who has no pror experience with a player, doesn't freeze that player out of the lineup for no reason.

- Scott

Who brought up Anselmi?

If Winter/Mariner are the ones negotiating contracts I don't think its a stretch to speculate that Winter was the one freezing him out.

[CoachGT]

Interesting comment about the academy and selling players.

Under-15 and under-13 branches will be added to the existing U-19 and U-17’s, with the goal being to develop players who will improve the top club, the Canadian national team and/or TFC’s bottom line if they become good enough to be sold off.

I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line. I guess the benefit is we get all of the players that are MLS quality for cheap.

More often than not, the selling of a single player can fund the academy for several years, and it helps draw in more prospects. Although the intent is to develop players, in a second tier league like this, you hope that you can develop a top tier player, give him a year or two on your development roster and sell him. It speaks volumes to any new prospects about the capabilities of your coaching staff and that you are willing to look at what might be best for both club and player.

[CoachGT]

Unless you think Anselmi is really calling the shots on the ground-floor managerial level, which I don't, there must be a reason Nana was frozen out of the lineup. It's not like Winter arrived in Toronto with a pre-existing bias against Nana.

In that scenario, contract demands or laziness in training would make sense, but I'm certainly willing to entertain any other hypothesis that makes logical sense.

A new Dutch manager who has no pror experience with a player, doesn't freeze that player out of the lineup for no reason.

- Scott

Nana played his way out of the lineup, regardless of contractual situation. His ball handling skills were terrible this year, and it wasn't as noticable under Preki because of having 11 men behind the ball. The difference between Cann and Attakora is that Attakora may be marginally better at stopping an onrushing player than Cann, but when Cann gets the ball, he makes better decisions. Attakora is a "boot it out" guy.

I would expect that most of the contractual stuff is handled by Mariner directly, leaving Winter to tend to players.

I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.

[Shakes McQueen]

Who brought up Anselmi?

If Winter/Mariner are the ones negotiating contracts I don't think its a stretch to speculate that Winter was the one freezing him out.

I brought up Anselmi, and never implied otherwise.

Teams negotiate contracts all the time. Why would you freeze a player out of the lineup over a disagreement over term length, if that's all it was? And if it was Winter/Mariner doing the negotiating, saying "well look at TFC's history!" wouldn't really apply.

The innocuous alternative, of course, is that maybe Winter really did simply think Nana was lazy in training, or that he wasn't playing well enough to crack the lineup. Maybe Nana thought he was in line for a substantial contract, based on being our standout defender in previous years, but our new manager disagreed based on Nana's early performances this season, leading to some acrimony.

Nana was a starter at the beginning of the year, so it isn't a case of him being frozen out since day one.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Nana played his way out of the lineup, regardless of contractual situation. His ball handling skills were terrible this year, and it wasn't as noticable under Preki because of having 11 men behind the ball. The difference between Cann and Attakora is that Attakora may be marginally better at stopping an onrushing player than Cann, but when Cann gets the ball, he makes better decisions. Attakora is a "boot it out" guy.

I would expect that most of the contractual stuff is handled by Mariner directly, leaving Winter to tend to players.

I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.

This is my conclusion as well. I'm just trying to engage these alternative theories of injustice being done to Nana, and so on.

I wasn't impressed with him in his early appearances this season, and I simply suspect Winter wasn't as well. Nana didn't like being relegated to the bench, and wanted to get a chance to play somewhere else, to earn the contract he thinks he deserves. Happens all the time in sports.

That's my theory.

- Scott

[menefreghista]

Sometimes I forget that this is the TFC management supporter's forum.

Teams negotiate contracts all the time. Why would you freeze a player out of the lineup over a disagreement over term length, if that's all it was? And if it was Winter/Mariner doing the negotiating, saying "well look at TFC's history!" wouldn't really apply.

Considering the way Cann was treated, why is it hard to believe that these guys are hard-asses when it comes to contract negotiations?

After seeing Harden trotted out week after week for a period of time, I think its plausible that Nana was being fucked over.

[Pookie]

More often than not, the selling of a single player can fund the academy for several years, and it helps draw in more prospects. Although the intent is to develop players, in a second tier league like this, you hope that you can develop a top tier player, give him a year or two on your development roster and sell him. It speaks volumes to any new prospects about the capabilities of your coaching staff and that you are willing to look at what might be best for both club and player.

Hey Coach, from a player's perspective, do you (or anyone) have an understanding how the "rights" are applied? I've heard of a few stories of players signing with the Academy, looking at no opportunities on the big club and hoping to shop their services elsewhere only to be denied the opportunity.

I am fully behind the Academy model and see big upside from the Club's perspective. Lost in most of the conversation are the details around implications for the player. Not every player on that Acaedmy roster is going to make it to the MLS. Can they pursue educational opportunities, as an example, if desired?

[Shakes McQueen]

Interesting comment about the academy and selling players.

Under-15 and under-13 branches will be added to the existing U-19 and U-17’s, with the goal being to develop players who will improve the top club, the Canadian national team and/or TFC’s bottom line if they become good enough to be sold off.

I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line. I guess the benefit is we get all of the players that are MLS quality for cheap.

Why would this raise a red flag with you? That's the modus operandi of every club academy on the planet. You develop players with the primary goal of bolstering your club, and selling the rest. You can't keep players in your Academy indefinitely, and simply letting them go for no return doesn't make sense.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.

Except this is contrary to what even TFC front office have admitted. I know they offered him a new contract. I know they wanted to sign him. But when they finally had to trade him away all of a sudden they didn't want him?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

There were never rumours of a significant pay raise. Now you are just making shit up.

The story was always that they agreed on money, but disagreed on term. The rest is history.

no need to get testy and yes there are several people who suggested it although you prob dont like them either, do believe it was mentioned on ICF

[Shakes McQueen]

Sometimes I forget that this is the TFC management supporter's forum.

Considering the way Cann was treated, why is it hard to believe that these guys are hard-asses when it comes to contract negotiations?

After seeing Harden trotted out week after week for a period of time, I think its plausible that Nana was being fucked over.

Plausible, in that it's possible? Sure.

And keep your glib condescension to yourself. I've been nothing but respectful to you.

Being a hardass in negotiations is one thing (without getting into specifics about the Cann situation), but intentionally making your team worse for weeks and weeks by freezing a player completely out of the lineup, is another.

- Scott

[Beach_Red]

I brought up Anselmi, and never implied otherwise.

Teams negotiate contracts all the time. Why would you freeze a player out of the lineup over a disagreement over term length, if that's all it was? And if it was Winter/Mariner doing the negotiating, saying "well look at TFC's history!" wouldn't really apply.

- Scott

It's never so straightforward in MLS, though, not all players negotiate from the same positions because there are domestic requirements and a limited number of international spots.

It's too bad this management also used the word "entitled" when talking about some players. It's somewhat understandable that they don't like the idea that there are different rules for different players - but there are, so they have to deal with it.

And maybe they don't always deal with it the best possible way.

[Shakes McQueen]

Except this is contrary to what even TFC front office have admitted. I know they offered him a new contract. I know they wanted to sign him. But when they finally had to trade him away all of a sudden they didn't want him?

Maybe they wanted him, but only as a bench player, making bench player money. Winter may not have been impressed enough with Nana to start him, but you still have to have depth. EDIT: And I could understand Nana not liking being a bench player, OR signing a depth-player calibre contract, after being a starter the last couple of seasons.

- Scott

[ManUtd4ever]

Nana played his way out of the lineup, regardless of contractual situation. His ball handling skills were terrible this year, and it wasn't as noticable under Preki because of having 11 men behind the ball. The difference between Cann and Attakora is that Attakora may be marginally better at stopping an onrushing player than Cann, but when Cann gets the ball, he makes better decisions. Attakora is a "boot it out" guy.

I would expect that most of the contractual stuff is handled by Mariner directly, leaving Winter to tend to players.

I really think that Nana just wasn't good enough with the ball. The contract stuff was just a distraction that other people have hooked onto.

This is my conclusion as well. I'm just trying to engage these alternative theories of injustice being done to Nana, and so on.

I wasn't impressed with him in his early appearances this season, and I simply suspect Winter wasn't as well. Nana didn't like being relegated to the bench, and wanted to get a chance to play somewhere else, to earn the contract he thinks he deserves. Happens all the time in sports.

That's my theory.

- Scott

Agreed. Although I do believe he would have been given the opportunity to earn a place in the starting lineup had he been willing to accept the contract extension that was offered by management. I think Nana's regression on the pitch, his reluctance to commit to the club long term, and his recurring injuries were the factors that sealed his fate in Toronto.

[CSO_BBTB]

....I know its reality in football that players are assets and they can be sold off. I just get the feeling MLSE's motivation with investing in the reserves is heavily focused on winning a big transfer fee that will go right to their bottom line....

Not how it works in MLS, as far as I'm aware. Teams have to reinvest any money made on transfers over and above allocation money received into their soccer operations. The money from Edu went towards paying for the new grass playing surface, for example.

[menefreghista]

Maybe they wanted him, but only as a bench player, making bench player money.

Why would you lock a bench player down for 4 years?

[Shakes McQueen]

Not how it works in MLS, as far as I'm aware. Teams have to reinvest any money made on transfers over and above allocation money received into their soccer operations. The money from Edu went towards paying for the new grass playing surface, for example.

Ahh, I forgot about this as well. So even selling players could give the club an advantage in the league.

- Scott

[denime]

Hey Coach, from a player's perspective, do you (or anyone) have an understanding how the "rights" are applied? I've heard of a few stories of players signing with the Academy, looking at no opportunities on the big club and hoping to shop their services elsewhere only to be denied the opportunity.

I am fully behind the Academy model and see big upside from the Club's perspective. Lost in most of the conversation are the details around implications for the player. Not every player on that Acaedmy roster is going to make it to the MLS. Can they pursue educational opportunities, as an example, if desired?

Yes, kids can pursue educational opportunities(NCAA) in US or Canada.

Junior/Senior academy players will go together to independent HS school(or are already going) in the morning,afternoon TFC.

Because of only 3-4Hrs of school per day they have to go 5 years(Grade13) instead of 4 and after that it is up to the kids,TFC,NCAA or Welfare.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Why would you lock a bench player down for 4 years?

maybe they thought he could get better.
We dont know for certain that it was definitely for 4 years.
everything is basically speculation unless one of us was sitting there with him and his agent

[Shakes McQueen]

There may also be perceived roster advantages to locking down a Canadian national for multiple years, even if that player is only projected to be a sub.

- Scott

[Oldtimer]

Ahh, I forgot about this as well. So even selling players could give the club an advantage in the league.

- Scott

Yes, up to $500 k in allocation directly benefits the club by giving the additional cap room. That can be quite significant.

The rest (after MLS' cut) benefits the club by being used to pay for infrastructure (probably the academy, in this case). MLS holds it in trust, so it can't just be paid in dividends to the Teachers' pension fund.

[rocker]

from a club's perspective, they will always want to get the max years on a young player. If that player improves, then you've got a starting asset at a bench player's price. Purely business logic.

From what I understand, the last 2 years of a typical 4 year MLS deal are team options.
So if you lock down a 22 year old Canadian defender on one of these contracts, you've got him for 4 years if you want him, or you can dump him after 2 years if he fails. And even some CBA provisions allow teams to dump players at the half season or after one season.

MLS teams are always pretty tough on re-negotiations -- they have the power. Look at what happened to Hartman and VandenBurgh.

I wish Nana well... but people on this board were once saying he'd be going to Europe soon enough... I haven't seen enough growth in his play to warrant such an prediction. Everyone looked better defensively under Preki. I found under Dasovic and Winter, however, Nana was regularly exposed.

[Dreadlocks]

Not how it works in MLS, as far as I'm aware. Teams have to reinvest any money made on transfers over and above allocation money received into their soccer operations. The money from Edu went towards paying for the new grass playing surface, for example.

Is a player (U13,15,17 & 19) that is not on the senior reserve squad or first team considered part of of the MLS? For example, if TFC sells a 16 year old who has never made a first team appearance to a European club, does the MLS get the transfer fee with only a portion going to TFC to be strictly put towards football operations?

I would assume that a player would have to be on the MLS books for the MLS to collect or have a say about where the money goes within TFC or MLSE for that matter.

I understand the Edu situation but he was a first team player on the MLS books.

[ag futbol]

Why would you lock a bench player down for 4 years?

That's semantics.

MLS calls it a "four year contract", but really it's series of one year contracts with team options. Terrible for the player, not sure why anybody would sign one.

[menefreghista]

That's semantics.

MLS calls it a "four year contract", but really it's series of one year contracts with team options. Terrible for the player, not sure why anybody would sign one.

I realize how the standard MLS contract works.

I just find it funny that people are trying to say Nana is shit, while management is trying to re-sign him. If he was so shit why not just release him?

And as for the actual contract I agree. Can't blame a player for doing everything they can to avoid such a contract.

I feel bad for TFC players though. We support them until management has a dispute with them. Than we vilify them instead.

[Shakes McQueen]

I feel bad for TFC players though. We support them until management has a dispute with them. Than we vilify them instead.

At what point did we vilify Nana in all of this? The fact that I don't capriciously indict TFC management of heinous wrongdoing, isn't tantamount to vilifying Nana. Why does one side always have to be evil?

Nana valued himself differently than the manager obviously did, in contract talks. Nana asked for a trade as a result. The team traded him.

I didn't think Nana looked very good in the games he played this season. That doesn't mean I think he's a villain, or that he's "shit". On the contrary, Nana has always struck me as a good kid.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

- Scott

[menefreghista]

At what point did we vilify Nana in all of this?

I'm just generalizing based on what I read from these various issues. I don't have the time to catalog them all.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

[Shakes McQueen]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Why is it necessary to take these condescending shots all the time?

Man alive, the internet is the death knell of civil person-to-person communication.

- Scott

[menefreghista]

Why is it necessary to take these condescending shots all the time?

Come on, really?

Anyways, I think Nana wasn't treated good by the club management. You disagree. So be it.

I see a pattern of bad management. Others disagree. What can we do?