Yeah, I agree that they gave up after those two goals by NY. Speaks to the inexperience and lack of leadership on the field tonight, really.Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen
Contrast that to the fight they gave in LA, and the difference is night and day.
Winter is here to stay, so is 4-3-3. Players will be picked for the system and not the other way around. That's the way it's done with best of the clubs around the world. If you don't stick to the plan you will never know who the right players are. The point is, next year's roster can only be an improvement on this year as the 'inadequate' players are phased out.
Martina and Soolsma with the complement of the right players will be effective. They have the touch, the skills and the knowledge- they created chances tonight overshadowed by bad luck.
If they start adjusting and playing 4-5-1 (which this team is definitely not build for), we would likely have a 0-3 loss with TFC making absolutely no chances at the other end, the Snooze fest that was with Preki. It made me sick to my stomach watching 0-1 loss after loss where we would have 1 shot on goal the whole game.
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I say we just sell the franchise. Start unscrewing the seats at BMO, and let's part this baby out.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
The team is being held accountable- that's the easiest part. The question is what to do? No one knows the answer to that for sure. Whether some fans bring in facts to justify or not- every game compiles into the overall opinion.
Are they doing everything they can to improve and get better? I think so. They are avoiding the temptation of easy fixes and focusing on the real target. I respect that.
If there is ONE thing that we can take away from the last 5 years, is that firing the coaches has NOT worked!
What we haven't tried yet is keeping the same coach for any reasonable amount of time and let him work through it.
No offense, but what you said goes against fundamental knowledge of soccer and in fact all tactics. Only a completely ignorant and foolish coach would keep his team using the same formation against every team regardless of the situation. The best coaches in the world such as Mourinho, Ferguson and Villas-Boas change their formation and tactics depending on the game and the situation in order to maximize the chances of success. Manchester united has played 4-4-2, 4-5-1 and even the 4-6-0 strikerless formation in recent years depending on the match. and while mourinho normally plays a 4-3-3 he has played extremely defensive versions of it against teams like barcalona in the champions league and it is these tactics that have brought him and his team SUCESS.
Additionally, while many big clubs do buy and bring in players to fit their system (or the coaches system). But the system is usually designed around the players at hand, at least initially. a cookie cutter is not thrown at the squad and expected to fit it, It its far more effective and intelligent to design the system around the players to mazimize sucess, and when the appropriate players are brought in to slowly mold the players into what your ideal system is. Mourinho played a 4-3-3 at chelsea because it fit the team, but at Real he plays more of a modified 4-5-1 because it fits them. It is like expecting your donkey to be your guard dog, its never going to happen, so if you play to its strengths and use it to carry your things, your going to have much more success.
Obviously there are different variations and coaches approach each game differently with respect to position, but by and large the squad is built around the main formation(s).
Winter believed that If Toronto was to have any chance of winning they needed to attack from the get-go. And with a bit of luck that was almost going to work, after which they could've dropped back. After they were loosing 0-1, they tried to bring the momentum back by an attacking formation. I understand Winter's idea and that sounds to me more like a winner's ambition rather than a 0-6-4 approach where you Hope to walk away with a tie.
The squad:
This is obviously our "B" squad. If you add it up by cap space, we had a very small portion of our team there.
These guys overall aren't good enough to be even bench strength on an MLS side.
The character of the squad:
The difference between the start and the end of the match showed it all. At least have some pride! It was terrible, just terrible. The score showed it.
The coaching:
Here we see a limitation in having an Ajax product running things. We are wedded to 4-3-3. I don't believe that Winter went to NY expecting to win, most likely he was playing for a draw. If he wanted a point, a tactical adjustment was necessary, (maybe a 4-5-1).
However, the Ajax system is very rigid.
It would be better if the team had at least 2 different formations that they could play. The tactical weakness of playing only one style could prevent our team from ever being a contender. As has been pointed out earlier, a great tactician like Sir Alex has his squad learn several different formations.
Of course, maybe Winter isn't really trying for points in what is a hopeless MLS season, but just trying to teach the Ajax system. In which case, keeping the 4-3-3 is the best way to do that. I'm not convinced that having only one system will work, unless you're Barcelona (which is impossible in a salary-capped league).
The opposition:
They look great. MLS Cup contenders for sure. They could give RSL a real run for the money.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-07-2011 at 05:07 AM.
Wasn't able to watch the game but from the game in six the five goals conceded are for the most part clearly down to the pairing at centre half (plus Gargan ball watching on the first one). It's possible to get away with a right back paired with a league minimum quality player playing at less than 100% fitness against a team like Vancouver but bad things will tend to happen when the quality is there to ruthlessly exploit the minor miscues. Those were mainly coming from Harden but he may have been playing when he really shouldn't have been to try to help the team and if so it's wrong to point the finger of blame. Houston should be closer to the Vancouver scenario again so hopefully the team bounces back from this on the weekend.
I haven't agreed with you much lately, but that's a helluva good post.
now that is the silliest quote I've seen on this board...ever.
My sentiments as well.
This result in the long run is a very good thing imo. We want teams who spend money on Talent/DPs to win and keep winning. It will show to the rest that you need to splash cash on players in order to compete. Only way the league will improve. Henry, Luke Rodgers, Teemo Taino, Jan Gunnar Solli. Fantastic players. Shows good players make a difference in this league.
It would be a sad state of affairs if Tfc, with the lineup they put out there, a bunch of kids and MLS 1.0 players like Gargan/Harden were to win.
It's better this way. In the long run.
What exactly were you expecting to happen in this game given the injury crisis at centre back? For those posting in the pregame thread the discussion revolved around how that issue could be addressed with the general consensus being we were potentially screwed given a player of the quality of Henry was going to be involved.
A very good point. We do want MLS to become one of the better leagues in the world, one in which a Harden wouldn't even make the bench.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-07-2011 at 06:50 AM.
no, it's true, we're unironically supposed to win the v's cup every year
at minimum
sorry
15 minutes in I was thinking how good we looked.
I couldn't even watch after 3-0
Exactly. We're only one point out of the playoffs with two DPs on the way one of which should be able to give us the punch up front that we need.
Plata was only good for 20 mins last night and needs to finish his chances, hopefully a new striker will take the pressure off him.
Get a grip folks, everytime we lose this board goes into meltdown. Back the team.
I know what Frings is like. My point was a general point about thinking this is going to fix anything. Too many people on here are making comments about how after July 15th things are going to be rosy because we have 2 new DPs. It may well become better but you can't expect it to be better based on reputation alone. Last night was a complete horror show. Forget systems, injuries, 4-3-3 etc... we could not complete a short pass. There is absolutely no excuse for 2 professional footballers 5 yards from each other to allow passes to be intercepted. Its nothing to do with any system. After half a season of Winter this is where we are at. Inserting 2 fabulously talented players into this could create a brand new set of problems for the team just as easily as it could fix them.
Meh..... On to the next one....
I think you might want to heed your own advice, ie, get a grip.
TFC is 3 points out of a playoff spot, but the teams it is chasing have games in hand. Plus there are 6 teams between TFC and 10th place.
Again, by my estimations, TFC needs 25 points in 14 games to have a shot at the playoffs.
Anyways, I don't see the meltdown you speak of. Its more like apathy, with a handful of people rightfully calling out the shit they witness, and a handful of people still showing blind faith.
Last edited by menefreghista; 07-07-2011 at 07:39 AM.
Really need to break down the cause of injuries to say for sure (IE - is it lack of fitness work or did someone stomp on an ankle).
It might be a lack of fitness prep, or it might be bad luck. It's not uncommon for team with a good fitness staff to go through a period of injuries.
EDIT: see the injury breakdown was already done.
Last edited by brad; 07-07-2011 at 07:47 AM.
I really don't like this line of argument.
I do agree that successful teams need stability in both the coaching (and playing) staff, and that a revolving door on either is not the way to succeed.
My problem is that this only works if you have the right coach in place.
Do you think we would have been a better team today we'd kept MoJo coaching? We would be in our 5th year of stability now.
I watched til it was 2-0...WTF is Martina still playing for...the guy gets knocked off the ball like he was a 6 year old little boy...and we all know how poor Harden is....TFC -- PADDING GOAL STATS FOR OPPONENTS SINCE 2007.....pathetic....
I though Mo Johnston should have been fired by season 2. But I think if he were still running the team, he would have found a CB replacement by now.
How it could be addressed, by one of the wealthiest teams in the league, is to take a bit less than 5 years to put together a quality side.
However, I agree...it was a little late to fix that problem last night.
How could you know that this early? Any coach would look bad at this point, even a world class one.
If we want to play an Ajax style, maybe he's the best we can get.
in my opinion, the problem lies with the back line. with a stable and confident back 4, the ball transitions through the mid-field. when the mid-field has no confiedence in the back 4,the result is what we saw last night. btw, does anyone elses asshole pucker when you see Thiery Henry go 1 on 1 whith the mighty Dan Gargon?
this is by far the silliest thing i've seen on these boards.
Backe didn't at NY, but I don't really like to use that as an example as a sample size of one isn't really an indication if that was exceptional or the norm.
Anyway - I intentionally didn't comment about Winter in that post (and I'm not calling for his head yet). It's more the line of reasoning that stability will breed success. Winter could very easily leave us in a worse state that MoJo did if he is the wrong guy and we stick with him to see what happens.
There are IMHO more worrying signs than positive ones with Winter. They surround his player selections, lack of ability to motivate his team, and inability to adjust the shape of his team to adapt to the opposition to name a few.
Back line is bad, but the midfield and forwards need to do a better job of keeping the ball to keep the pressure off them.
This system needs to be possession based for it to work, and that is a whole team issue. If we can't hold the ball we are leaving the back four out to dry.
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