Winter Approval Rating - June 2011

[CSO_BBTB]

You can have 10 discovery claims in at any given time and are allowed to make six discovery signings per season:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/2011-mls-roster-rules

Each club has the opportunity to make six discovery signings per season (expansion teams may make 10 discovery signings in their inaugural season). A club may have up to 10 discovery claims on unsigned players at any time and may remove or add players at any time. The last day for discovery player signings is September 15, 2011 – coinciding with the roster freeze date and trade deadline.

___________
Any reference to "we" means the same thing it did on Simon's board five years ago (i.e. TFC in general or the entire TFC support).

[brad]

I think Winter has a middling grade on talent acquisition so far. Tchani was a highly touted prospect, but hasn't been great to this point (though he's still young). On the other hand, he's been far better with the players we've secured on loans, like Ecks and Plata. Yourassowsky looks great some weeks, and terrible others.

It's been a mixed bag. I agree with you that DPs are a separate category altogether.

- Scott

I don't have a good feeling about Winter's talent acquisition skills either at that this point, but I am reserving judgement before I write him off totally.

As others have mentioned, with Martina, Soolsma, ect, Winter had to bring in the players that were available to him at the time - a time when most good players are still under contract. What we don't know, and can only guess at (see what I did there )

• Did Winter/Mariner misjudge the MLS and think these players were good enough.
• Did Winter/Mariner know they were underwhelming but sign them anyway as they were the best players they could find before the season started and they would have to play with 15 players on the roster.
• Have Winter/Mariner identified these guys as the depth players going forward, with the starters coming in at a later time when they are available.

Again, pure speculation, but I'm pretty sure that Mariner has a good handle on what the talent level needed in this league is. As such, I don't think he would be picking up players from a Dutch amature league and expect them to be core players in this team. Of course, it may be that Winter ignored him on this. We don't know.

I am waiting to see what happens this window and the next before I pass judgement on Winter.

As an aside, I think it will be another couple of years before we see whether Tchani fufills his potential.

[Pookie]

@Pookie I'm not entirely certain what your angle is here, but just because someone brings up DeRosario doesn't mean you need to jump in with your "he's a declining asset", but whatever floats your boat man.

Just to clarify, the thread is about Winter/Mariner and the job that they have done. The DeRo situation was a significant moment in defining their authority and vision over the club.

If we accept that DeRo leaving was inevitable we have to ask whether they got fair value. They had 2 choices:

1. option to release him would have freed cap space but little else
2. option to trade him netted 2 players and a draft pick along with cap wiggle room

I use the term "declining asset" because in evaluating their return, it appears that they did well relative to what NY got. It's like stock, they sold at a higher price than NY sold the same asset for. Simply put, receiving a higher price for the same asset is generally a good thing. Therefore, it appears that they made a positive decision for the club which is a point in their favour in this thread about whether they are doing a good job for the club.

---

If folks don't accept that him leaving was inevitable, then the question becomes was it wise thing to let him go?

We can discuss his 6 goals this year, mostly on PKs, or we can discuss his past history here which from an individual production standpoint was outstanding. In the end, we know that a team that wants to "win it now" figured they have a better chance to do it with a depth player from DC after having DeRo for a few months.

Again, the term "declining asset" comes into play as the value of DeRo, to other teams, has declined in a short period of time. He was not valued highly enough to keep by the team that wants to win now and the asking price was less than it was a few months ago. Therefore the decision not to cave in to his demands (or honour depending on your perspective), appears to have been a good one as well.

Either way, Winter and Mariner get a check mark... from me... in terms of this being a good decision and I use the term "declining asset" in explaining why.

Hope that helps.

[Oldtimer]

Given that Winter says the squad isn't good enough, it will be interesting who he moves out and who gets signed. Then we'll get more of an idea where he is going.

[Oldtimer]

You can have 10 discovery claims in at any given time and are allowed to make six discovery signings per season:

http://www.mlssoccer.com/2011-mls-roster-rules

Each club has the opportunity to make six discovery signings per season (expansion teams may make 10 discovery signings in their inaugural season). A club may have up to 10 discovery claims on unsigned players at any time and may remove or add players at any time. The last day for discovery player signings is September 15, 2011 – coinciding with the roster freeze date and trade deadline.

___________
Any reference to "we" means the same thing it did on Simon's board five years ago (i.e. TFC in general or the entire TFC support).

Thanks, that's why I had both 6 & 10 in my head.

[bangersandmash]

• Did Winter/Mariner know they were underwhelming but sign them anyway as they were the best players they could find before the season started and they would have to play with 15 players on the roster.

If you want a decent picture of Mariner's understanding of the MLS, look no further than the New England Revolution's recent form. With Mariner = Perenniel MLS Cup finalists. Without Mariner... well... less than impressive. NER used to be able to scout,identify and develop exciting talent. I don't see that from them anymore. The only variable in the equation is Mariner.

The previous regime(s) clearly made moves and decisions that impacted Mariner/Winter's ability to utalise all of the tools that could have been at their disposal. They did, however, make some moves. Then came the injuries. Lots of them. In the same position.

Could anyone have predicted 4 CB's and a DM and the only target-man we have going down to injury? I suppose you *could* judge Winter/Mariner for the way he has handled it. But our full squad is better than what we are seeing out there. We've seen games where our back 4 has looked strong. We've seen games where we've maintained posession and attacked with some confidence. Those games, however, tended to end as draws rather than wins, so we ignore them.

What I don't see Winter/Mariner doing is going out and making "panic signings." Niether of the two DP signings are "ticket sellers" in Toronto. They are players signed to fill out the puzzle. Smart signings, in my eyes. Unlike other former players who were big names with ailing reputations (Robert, I'm looking at you), Koevermanns and Frings are recognized as unselfish, hard-working and effective players. The tone is changing. That is where I draw encouragement from.

[ManUtd4ever]

If you want a decent picture of Mariner's understanding of the MLS, look no further than the New England Revolution's recent form. With Mariner = Perenniel MLS Cup finalists. Without Mariner... well... less than impressive. NER used to be able to scout,identify and develop exciting talent. I don't see that from them anymore. The only variable in the equation is Mariner.

The previous regime(s) clearly made moves and decisions that impacted Mariner/Winter's ability to utalise all of the tools that could have been at their disposal. They did, however, make some moves. Then came the injuries. Lots of them. In the same position.

Could anyone have predicted 4 CB's and a DM and the only target-man we have going down to injury? I suppose you *could* judge Winter/Mariner for the way he has handled it. But our full squad is better than what we are seeing out there. We've seen games where our back 4 has looked strong. We've seen games where we've maintained posession and attacked with some confidence. Those games, however, tended to end as draws rather than wins, so we ignore them.

What I don't see Winter/Mariner doing is going out and making "panic signings." Niether of the two DP signings are "ticket sellers" in Toronto. They are players signed to fill out the puzzle. Smart signings, in my eyes. Unlike other former players who were big names with ailing reputations (Robert, I'm looking at you), Koevermanns and Frings are recognized as unselfish, hard-working and effective players. The tone is changing. That is where I draw encouragement from.

Agreed on all points. Well said.

[Shakes McQueen]

If you want a decent picture of Mariner's understanding of the MLS, look no further than the New England Revolution's recent form. With Mariner = Perenniel MLS Cup finalists. Without Mariner... well... less than impressive. NER used to be able to scout,identify and develop exciting talent. I don't see that from them anymore. The only variable in the equation is Mariner.

The previous regime(s) clearly made moves and decisions that impacted Mariner/Winter's ability to utalise all of the tools that could have been at their disposal. They did, however, make some moves. Then came the injuries. Lots of them. In the same position.

Could anyone have predicted 4 CB's and a DM and the only target-man we have going down to injury? I suppose you *could* judge Winter/Mariner for the way he has handled it. But our full squad is better than what we are seeing out there. We've seen games where our back 4 has looked strong. We've seen games where we've maintained posession and attacked with some confidence. Those games, however, tended to end as draws rather than wins, so we ignore them.

What I don't see Winter/Mariner doing is going out and making "panic signings." Niether of the two DP signings are "ticket sellers" in Toronto. They are players signed to fill out the puzzle. Smart signings, in my eyes. Unlike other former players who were big names with ailing reputations (Robert, I'm looking at you), Koevermanns and Frings are recognized as unselfish, hard-working and effective players. The tone is changing. That is where I draw encouragement from.

Great post. Completely agreed. This is also one area I draw optimism from.

- Scott

[Wooster_TFC]

@Roogsy Something happened in the entire situation with DeRo that forced him to say "you might as well trade me" to TFC. There are only two situations that I could see having made the situation tenable again for him, either he got a DP contract from TFC, or he was allowed to stay at Celtic for the "to end of season" loan. You could tell as much during his first press conference of the pre-season. Since WinterMariner were also trying to get Koevermans and Frings before the season started (based on comments made at the presser for their signing), it would seem to me that the DP route was not an option. DeRo was already above the max cap, and I have no idea what else he would be looking for that would have caused him to say what he said (straight from the horses mouth in an interview when he joined NY).

@Pookie There's a bit better of a post, your first one seemed intent on only trolling Roogsy IMO.

Some excellent points about the discovery signings, but I don't think that particularly tied their hands. My point is more the guaranteed contracts + opinions of the also rans at the start of pre-season. When you're stuck with 15 guys on the contract, told that you have 2 starting CBs (Nana, Cann), 3 starting mids (JDG, DeRo, Sturgis), a starting winger (Peterson) and a starting striker (Santos) (oh, and a goalie - Frei) by the incumbents, you don't tend to disagree with that until you see them yourself. There's nothing that you could tell based on the tapes of these players as to whether they fit into a 4-3-3. DeRo and JDG would be the only two I would argue that you could determine either way. Oh, you are also told that you have some very solid trialists coming in to fill the holes (Ent, Sidra, Ornoch).

When your support structure basically tells you that you need to fill a couple of spots, wingers and fullbacks, you look for those types of players. It likely took the entire trip in Turkey to determine that the incumbents didn't really know what they were talking about, but that there were some things you could work with. I would bank on Martina being signed as a starting winger, Bouchiba and Soolsma for depth, and Yourassowsky because he would be a reasonable option at LB, with Harden and Gargan as cover.

The youth players were signed for two reasons IMO: depth, and to show to the current academy players that if you show well you will get an opportunity with the big team. I also think that most of them would have gone elsewhere if they were left on the academy. None of them were intended to be bench players in MLS.

[Wooster_TFC]

If you want a decent picture of Mariner's understanding of the MLS, look no further than the New England Revolution's recent form. With Mariner = Perenniel MLS Cup finalists. Without Mariner... well... less than impressive. NER used to be able to scout,identify and develop exciting talent. I don't see that from them anymore. The only variable in the equation is Mariner.

The previous regime(s) clearly made moves and decisions that impacted Mariner/Winter's ability to utalise all of the tools that could have been at their disposal. They did, however, make some moves. Then came the injuries. Lots of them. In the same position.

Could anyone have predicted 4 CB's and a DM and the only target-man we have going down to injury? I suppose you *could* judge Winter/Mariner for the way he has handled it. But our full squad is better than what we are seeing out there. We've seen games where our back 4 has looked strong. We've seen games where we've maintained posession and attacked with some confidence. Those games, however, tended to end as draws rather than wins, so we ignore them.

What I don't see Winter/Mariner doing is going out and making "panic signings." Niether of the two DP signings are "ticket sellers" in Toronto. They are players signed to fill out the puzzle. Smart signings, in my eyes. Unlike other former players who were big names with ailing reputations (Robert, I'm looking at you), Koevermanns and Frings are recognized as unselfish, hard-working and effective players. The tone is changing. That is where I draw encouragement from.

+3, because 2 others beat me to it

[Pachuco]

Pachuco,

Just picked up a comment you made in the closed thread and since the conversation is carrying on, I thought I would ask you about it here:



Are we comparing the same seasons?

You are comparing TFC's current season to "NY at this state in the season the year they turned it around."

Are you talking about NYRB's 2010 season? If so, I don't get your reference to the comment that "both teams couldn't rely on their DPs."

Angel had 9 goals on the season heading into July. In the 2009 campaign he had 7 on record as of July 16th.

Not sure how that implies they weren't getting production from their DP prior to Henry, Marquez.

Clearly our DP hasn't made any significant contribution to match that of Angel. Maybe I'm missing something though...?

I was talking about Henry, Marquez vs Koevermans and Frings. Same situation. People constantly talk about NY's success being due to the DPs that came in, which is crap, they were doing quite good without them. They turned that team around with 1 DP (same number we had) plus a bunch of no name players who are now well known.

[Wooster_TFC]

I was talking about Henry, Marquez vs Koevermans and Frings. Same situation. People constantly talk about NY's success being due to the DPs that came in, which is crap, they were doing quite good without them. They turned that team around with 1 DP (same number we had) plus a bunch of no name players who are now well known.

The only point I would make to this is that who would you rather have as a DP in an MLS context? A DM that does little to nothing offensively, but when on his game can play a decent (sometimes solid) supporting role, or a striker who's been on a tear ever since joining the MLS?

Most would take the striker, hands down. Angel had 8 goals in MLS before the other DPs joined, and you can't say that about any current TFC player.

[ensco]

Unlike other former players who were big names with ailing reputations (Robert, I'm looking at you), Koevermanns and Frings are recognized as unselfish, hard-working and effective players. The tone is changing. That is where I draw encouragement from.

Too soon for endzone dancing on Frings and Koevermans. Too many memories of what people said when JDG was signing. Hope you are right. Let's see.

Not right to compare them to Robert btw. These guys are both probably making 5x or more what Robert made.

[Shakes McQueen]

Too soon for endzone dancing on Frings and Koevermans. Hope you are right. Let's see.

Not right to compare them to Robert btw. These guys are both probably making 5x or more what Robert made.

He wasn't really endzone dancing - he was describing the qualities they've exhibited as footballers over their careers.

- Scott

[menefreghista]

If you want a decent picture of Mariner's understanding of the MLS, look no further than the New England Revolution's recent form. With Mariner = Perenniel MLS Cup finalists. Without Mariner... well... less than impressive. NER used to be able to scout,identify and develop exciting talent. I don't see that from them anymore. The only variable in the equation is Mariner.

Mariner leaving isn't the only factor though, as you state.

The league has changed a lot since NER was a consistently good team. Lots of things have changed, like rapid expansion, the implementation of the DP rule, etc. A lot of the previously successful teams aren't doing as well in the post-expansion era. MLS has change a lot in a very short period.

And really, if Mariner was the genius behind NER and Nichol's success, we have yet to see it have a real effect on TFC.

[trane]

The only point I would make to this is that who would you rather have as a DP in an MLS context? A DM that does little to nothing offensively, but when on his game can play a decent (sometimes solid) supporting role, or a striker who's been on a tear ever since joining the MLS?

Most would take the striker, hands down. Angel had 8 goals in MLS before the other DPs joined, and you can't say that about any current TFC player.

I have not seen Frings alot, but when I have seen him, he does contribute offensively, he is an accurate passer and is able to support the attack.

[Wooster_TFC]

I have not seen Frings alot, but when I have seen him, he does contribute offensively, he is an accurate passer and is able to support the attack.

To be clear, I was referring to JDG vs Angel.

[bangersandmash]

Mariner leaving isn't the only factor though, as you state.

The league has changed a lot since NER was a consistently good team. Lots of things have changed, like rapid expansion, the implementation of the DP rule, etc. A lot of the previously successful teams aren't doing as well in the post-expansion era. MLS has change a lot in a very short period.

Good points. I hadn't thought it that way. Mariner's first season with NER (2004, 4th place) was a low for the club and their worst since 2000. 2005—2008, however were golden days for the club. Expansion and the DP could be factors in the immediate decline that NER experienced. Having Kraft as an owner is probably hurting these days, too. But during Mariner's time with NER they had a sharp attack and a good eye for talent. I would find it surprising if the loss of Mariner wasn't a significant reason for the decline.

[tiberius]

I think this may be a tough question - difficult to answer...


Who is Aron Winter?


What kind of man is he? What kind of values does he bring with him? What strengths does he have?


I believe the values and character of Winter will make or break his success with this club. Oldtimer commented earlier this morning that building team culture is a valuable but long process. If a player trusts the coach, they will do almost anything for him/her - if a player distrusts the coach, he/she won't go out of the way to do anything at all, except pick up the paycheck.


Aron Winter has not written an autobiography, and he strikes me as a quiet introvert, so we may not have many facts to go on. This is probably a "reading the tea leaves" expedition, sprinkled in with some strong opinions that are hard to back up with fact...


That being said, I want to know:
- Is he an honest man? Is he a man of his word or does he speak with forked toungue? Is his handshake his word?
- Is he transparent and straighforward or is he a kiniving backroom politics guy
- Introvert or Extrovert?
- does he tend to consult and gather a lot of facts before making decisions or does he just point in a direction without consultation?

- Is he an endless waffler or can he make decision?
- Does he anger easily or is he slow to boil?
- Is he an intelligent guy or is he dumber than dirt?
- do people like working with him?
- is he arrogant or humble?
- are his language skills improving?
- does he um and errr in Dutch all the time, or is that a result of struggling with the language?
- is he in it for the long run, or is he the type that will cut and run? Clues?
- does he have a vision for this team, or is that all marketing hooey?
- does he treat people well - from the secretary in the FO, to the sidewalk sweeper at BMO?
- does he pop a toonie into the hat of some guy on the street, or does he tell him to get a job?
- does he value dissenting opinions or does he stiffle free discussion
- when he was on the coaching team at Ajax did the players like him?


- What is his favourite drink? Does he drink alcohol? Does he like beer? What brand?
- When he was playing football, was he a diver? A whiner? Taunter of supporters? Or did he just quietly go about the job?
- What kind of car does he drive?
- does he like to read? If so, what does he read?
- What is his favourite TV show? Movie?
- What kind of dog does he have... - When did we get a dog? ;-)


Facts would be preferred over opinion, but I am not sure how much we have to work with here...

[TFC07]

Send this post ASAP to GolTV headquarters so they can do "off the pitch" interview with Winter!

[tiberius]

Can he inspire men to play above their abilities against strong adversity, when it really matters?

Does he have the respect of the players? do they want him to succeed and do they think that they could benefit from working with him for multiple seasons?

Does he know how to adapt the allegedly dutch system to counter traditional MLS attacks and to dominate the run of play?

Has he researched the opposition teams, the depth of talent and the tactics they employ?

Does he bring confidence to the players? does he encourage them, show that he believes him them?

Does he think he's doing well? (Because this is the really important question)

All great questions! Some of these "cultural" questions may take some time to unfold. It often requires going through some tough times together in order for some of these team culture issues to gel... most players are not going to blindly follow a coach, they are going to have a wait and see attitude too...

[ensco]

Does he think he's doing well? (Because this is the really important question)

He clearly does

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer...for-toronto-fc

[Beach_Red]

He clearly does

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer...for-toronto-fc

Wow. Just wow. From a Canadian, or Toronto, cultural persepective this sounds so familiar. Klinsmann wasn't hired to "identify" the culture of Toronto, or Ontario, he was hired to pick which foreign culture would be imposed.

The article talks about the Dutch traning kids and, "sending them out into the bigger world," pretty much the opposite of the immigrant culture of Toronto where over half the people living here are from somewhere else.

This is like every Canadian industry in the 50's, importing skilled workers from the UK. So maybe, in soccer, it's what's necessary but the condescending tone about building a "sports culture" in North America is laughable, as if there are no successful sports teams here.

[tiberius]

He clearly does

http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer...for-toronto-fc

Very interesting! I like the part where Kelly says:

"However, you don’t get the impression that Winter is worried. Quite the opposite. He seems emboldened by the challenge. Over the years, this city has seen every stereotype in coaching, from dreamers to climbers to exhausted legends. Aron Winter may be the first visionary."

I thought the article was leading up to labelling Winter a dreamer, but then Kelly chose "visionary". Did he end up drinking some of the Winter koolaid or did he just get out his thesaurus to find another word for dreamer...

[Auzzy]

Does he think he's doing well? (Because this is the really important question)

Quote fail. Should read:

Does he think he's doing it well?

[tiberius]

Sigh... I am not trying to dis whomever merged the thread "Who is Aron Winter" with "Winter approval rating" but I just gotta say that I find this particularly disheartening. I see a world of difference between a shit storm causing topic where there is a poll and a black and white yes/no on Winter's performance and more neutral topic trying to get a better understanding of the man himself...

Between closed threads and merged threads I feel like there is absolutely no point in creating a thread. Period. We might as well have one big thread called "all about TFC". This is such a dis.

If someone could either post the rationale to assist myself and others or PM me if I did something obvious and dumbass in opening the thread, or you would prefer the conversation offline, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Oldtimer]

Wow. Just wow. From a Canadian, or Toronto, cultural persepective this sounds so familiar. Klinsmann wasn't hired to "identify" the culture of Toronto, or Ontario, he was hired to pick which foreign culture would be imposed.

There is no football culture in Ontario, all of it is a blending of foreign cultures. You need to pick one of them, otherwise you have a messed up mixture. Which, besides our seriously messed up FA, is one of the multitude of reasons why the CMNT is so seriously under-performing.

Hockey has Canadian traditions... I don't know of any footballing traditions.

[Roogsy]

Sigh... I am not trying to dis whomever merged the thread "Who is Aron Winter" with "Winter approval rating" but I just gotta say that I find this particularly disheartening. I see a world of difference between a shit storm causing topic where there is a poll and a black and white yes/no on Winter's performance and more neutral topic trying to get a better understanding of the man himself...

Between closed threads and merged threads I feel like there is absolutely no point in creating a thread. Period. We might as well have one big thread called "all about TFC".

If someone could either post the rationale to assist myself and others or PM me if I did something obvious and dumbass in opening the thread, or you would prefer the conversation offline, it would be greatly appreciated.

I agree with you.



Further to your original thread, (that should not have been merged with an approval thread) I think the question of "what defines a good coach" should be discussed. Because I think it would get to the root of the disagreements between those that are happy with Winter and those that are unhappy with Winter.

[Beach_Red]

There is no football culture in Ontario, all of it is a blending of foreign cultures. You need to pick one of them, otherwise you have a messed up mixture. Which, besides our seriously messed up FA, is one of the multitude of reasons why the CMNT is so seriously under-performing.

Hockey has Canadian traditions... I don't know of any footballing traditions.

Culture and traditions are not the same thing. But that's a discussion for another place , and besides, what we're talking about here isn't either, it's playing styles. It's possible to take a blending of styles and mix them, you don't need to pick one, but you need strong leadership to do it. In fact, a blending of styles is the tradition of Canadian hockey.

There may not he a dominant style in Ontario and maybe this TFC initiative will set the course for everyone but the chances are slim - Ontario culture doesn't react well to the imposition of a single style anymore

[Thomas]

I agree with you.



Further to your original thread, (that should not have been merged with an approval thread) I think the question of "what defines a good coach" should be discussed. Because I think it would get to the root of the disagreements between those that are happy with Winter and those that are unhappy with Winter.

Why does this always have to be characterized in absolute black and white terms. I.E those who love Winter, can't say enough good about him and never criticize him vs those who can't stand him & would love to see him turfed ASAP? Winter has disappointed me, but has been dealing with half a deck of cards until very recently.I am not writing him off just yet.