and those 'key' components didn't bring a winning team till 09. just saying.Originally Posted by spark
we really can't tell which of TFC players will end up being key or what not. hindsight is always 20/20. Kreis also brought in a lot of players that didn't end up working out too
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
well didn't expect any better then this for this game so i guess i can't be to bitter..
Well they made the playoffs in 08 and had a better record that season than in 09 - also they had almost identical home records (only one home loss both years). The team that is strong now was built in the summer 2007 and at the end of the season and began producing (winning) in 2008. Their ascent was there for all to see that year and if you don't think a thirteen point turnaround and last to third in their division with a playoff appearance is not winning that is cool.
What players didn't work out for Kreis? A Keeper? CB? Midfield? Striker? Since he's been on board he's had one solid player holding down all those positions. If anyone didn't work out it was inconsequential because he made the right moves in essential areas.
RSL's rebuild started in 2007 and they made the playoffs -- which require a winning team -- the following year. Yes, they didn't win the cup, but I'd say you've pretty much finished rebuilding when you hit the playoffs, no?
So that's two years... and they were actually below .500 in 2008.... so as far as league play the rebuild wasn't yet complete in 2 years. The three year figure would be what most analysts/media types would say.
The apathy has set in for sure among the fanbase. Its pretty sad when you think about it.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-26-2011 at 08:41 PM.
I just dont get this. I read stuff like this here a lot and i just wonder if i am watching the same game as you. I know i have got really negative about this season but what is the style and philosophy? I mean what is it ? The last game i saw consisted of Frei booting the ball up the park against the Sounders and everybody running for it. If you say style and phylosophy then back it up. You cant just say total football, 4-3-3, academy or whatever bollocks. It isn't there. This is so far from total football that its more like baseball. I watched the dutch team in the 70s. This is not that. Its failure on every level. I mean almost everyone on here last year said that there were about 4-5 players that were indispensible ... Attakora, Cann, dero, Frei and maybe one or 2 others depending on people's borderline opinions. We have essentially lost all of them... whether it actually losing them or in a very short space of time rendering them bloody useless. How is this a style and philosophy ?We replaced them with what ? We have barely scored a well constructed goal this season. We have a negative goal difference in double figures. We have DP that i could play better than, Most goals have been as a result of individual talent (eg Plata v Houston), sheer luck (Martina v portland) or toe pokes from Santos. set pieces are terrible. (2 freekicks at the edge of the box v sounders????). I am tired of watching them. I am tired of people acting like this is part of a masterplan. FFS the union are top of our league. How can that happen after about 18 months ? The really sad thing is that picture when you log in here of fans at the academy game is what BMO is going to look like in the near future. TFC is a disaster.
oops Plata (v chicago)
Actually, I understand why the thread was shut down, and am not upset by it. After following this club for 5 years I am on the verge of giving my tickets away and not renewing, just so bored. One thing to lose occasionally, but to do so predictably week after week, and all the while watching rather mediocre soccer (mls is simply not very good), leads me to wonder why mlse cannot emulate philly...The question about firing the manager irks people but a last place club in a third tier soccer league, that has not won a game in months, plays poorly all the time, cannot be such a shocking suggestion. But I realize the RPB are strong supporters of this team and should try to focus on positive elements of the season, when they can. But don't you feel a little bit betrayed by this team? Can everything they do wrong be excused, or blamed on fate and injuries etc.? For example, if Attakora was given adequate training in this new system, would'nt this be better then using academy defenders who are not nearly as good as he is? That is a managers decision. And, why bother signing stevanovic and Eckersley when one will likely follow the other out of here before the season is over...what is the point of this, particularly in a season where Dero is traded away at a time when the team couldn't score....couldn't Winter wait until the season was over before moving him, or at least wait until the playoffs approached, he would get more for him at that time than a slighly better than average tchani? These are the decisions I question about Winter, and they are rarely explained...when Dero was traded most people around me at the stadium were shocked, yet in RPB it seemed to be accepted as a positive decision just because it was made by the new guy.
Last edited by 69Chevy396; 06-26-2011 at 08:48 PM.
People say that crap because they want to feel like they are "in" on something that other people just aren't getting; people like to feel like they can see what others don't. It makes them feel smart to say "you just dont understand what is happening" so they throw out the same inane bullshit that the suits (who have an actual vested personal and financial stake beyond money spent on tickets) who have their jobs on the line spew out.
edit:
lol, I got an infraction for 'attacking the group', and my post was removed by oldtimer.
Last edited by ilikemusic; 06-26-2011 at 08:48 PM.
Thanks, some people might not get the use of up to 5 numbers rather than 3 for the formation. The aim in modern 4-3-3/4-5-1 systems is to create triangles all over the field exploiting the spaces left between the lines by teams that play a more traditional 4-4-2. If Winter were dogmatically sticking to "point back" I could understand the angst from some but "point forward" is nothing hugely out of the ordinary and is something competitive teams at all levels can reasonably be expected to use successfully.
Ok a few things.
First RSL is a good team playing at home, I didn't expect a win I would hope no one else did either.
Second as mentioned there is a fair number of injuries, which only makes it more difficult in this particular game.
As for the team, Winter had 6 weeks to bring about change, had a lot of issues with multiple things when he came, DeRo, Cann, and several odd trades that Winter had no part in. He then drafted players and signed a young team to build on. It was never expected for him to have a winning team from the beginning.
Then things didn't go well with DeRo who he really was building the squad around. I think if DeRo had left before the Barrett trade you would have seen Barrett in the AM role and Santos traded. Barrett would have fit there better and worked much harder. But the reality is, that left us without the major attacking threat that was expected. And Gordon who has been chronically injured for a while shouldn't have been expected to do much more then be a shot in the arm when he was healthy.
Several players were brought in that didn't really have the knowledge and haven't fully adapted to MLS yet.
All in all the fact that we have only won one MLS game since DeRo left says a lot..
What all this means is, that if a skilled AM comes in during the transfer window, as well as JDG departure and is replaced by a decent DM to do the same thing for less, with a DP Striker or the AM as DP who is worth the price... then we have potential. If Winter doesn't take advantage of the off season, isn't learning from his mistakes in the league, and we still preform like shit next year.. then I think that is all there is for Winter and the overall employment of Dutch coaches in MLS.
Basically I think that Winter was going to count on DeRo to win games, he shipped him off reluctantly, and his other signings just aren't preforming as he had hoped in this league. It is his fault he knows it, but he also deserves the chance to fix it.
Unlike Preki who knew the league, had a decent squad to work with, and gutted it, and had personality issues himself, and a view of MLS that was 5 years old and not totally valid anymore. Winter is learning... he should get the chance to show what he can do.
Last edited by Kaz; 06-26-2011 at 10:36 PM. Reason: fixing so the english language isn't so badly butchered..
Thats actually a fair point and well reasoned out. You didn't dress it up in words like system, style and philosophy. I can accept that as a reasoned opinion
I noticed that. Must have hit a nerve
Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 06-27-2011 at 07:11 AM. Reason: quoted edited post
Ugh. TFC.
I thought it was a perfectly valid question to ask.
I think we are stuck with Winter regardless until at least the end of the season.
Of course there is always the chance that Winter bolts on his own. With the team doing this badly that is entirely possible. He may quit out of embarrassment or to save face. Under the guise of a 'mutual' separation.
Thing to watch is the transfer window. If a player like Danny Koevermans is signed to a multiyear deal they are basically committing to Winter for the medium term timescale. If like last year nothing much happens beyond a short term deal for one European hasbeen until the end of the season we could be seeing another change around about season ticket renewal time. They've stumbled onto what is probably the right approach long term but I have zero faith that they will hang in there with it if it gets in the way of their short term marketing targets given promotion prospects post-Peddie are on the line for people like Paul Beirne and Tom Anselmi.
The part in quotes...this is the part I am most interested in. What exactly points to this being the "right approach"?
Having a preferred style of play through from U14 to the first team based on what is the prevailing trend in the modern game so there can be more continuity in playing personnel from coach to coach.
But that is far too basic to be considered the "right approach". That's like saying that in order for a company to be successful it has to have the "right people". Well, that much is obvious. But what does it mean to have the "right people"? Is it experience? Is it ambition? Is it a mix of youth and veteran? Is it leadership? Is it teamwork? The elements that make up the solution need to be evaluated. Have they been with TFC?
For a solution to be considered appropriate, the devil is in the details. Platitiudes about having a "vision" and "style" are insufficient to generate sufficient hope in a fanbase that has seen a team actually get worse instead of better.
If people are going to fall by the wayside because the team is losing in the short term I think they are no great loss personally. Better to slowly build the fanbase based on the people who will hang in there through thick and thin. If most knowledgeable soccer community people in the GTA can see what they are trying to achieve based on development of players from U14 to the MLS senior roster then that's progress over what was happening under Mo and Carver when the tactics being used were seen by some as being prehistoric.
Last edited by CSO_BBTB; 06-26-2011 at 10:57 PM.
When it comes to a team's fanbase, there is no credible argument of "quality instead of quantity". In the world of sports, quantity IS the only valid argument and anyone espousing this "I'd rather have 5,000 hardcore supporters in the stands vs 20,000 fairweather fans" doesn't know the business of sports or what it takes to build a successful franchise.
When a fanbase declines, revenues decline. When revenues decline, the quality of the product declines. When the quality of product declines, it becomes all that much more difficult to return to previous, higher levels. It's an uphill battle that was never necessary to be fought. It's tying a millstone around your neck unecessarily.
Don't think it would drop as far as 5k (there were already 7k sold pre-Beckham) and they have scope for group sales that they aren't really pushing right now. Anyhoo, we disagree. Maybe best to quit for now having stated our positions before it gets repetitive.
I dont think anybody is suggesting that having a team that is capable of playing formations other than 4-4-2 is a bad thing. Maybe too, getting rid of this philosophical approach to the style of play along with Winter would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
The real question is what type of coach is winter?
Is he the right person to coach this team? Is he able to communicate this philosphy of play to north american players? does he understand the MLS talent pool enough to get the right people ahead of the other coaches? does he have the charisma to convince them to come here? Are his connections going to pay off?
Im sorry, but if you remove all the rhetoric about the global standard of play, and the culture of posession based football, winter looks a bit hapless.
His selections are awful. His substitutions are baffling and he uses them so quickly he leaves injured players limping on the pitch. He fucks with players heads, visibly punishes them over non game related shit. He changes the plan when were pulling it back together and fails to change the plan when were falling apart. He hasnt produced any real talent yet, and he's already losing people he's bought in, which doesnt bode well for 'building the spine'
On top of that, the other coaches have his number and are making him look like an idiot week in and week out. You get the impression that he doesnt 'know his enemy' he rarely adapts his tactics to the team hes facing, even though the other teams seem to know exactly what were going to do, and how to stomp it out.
The system might be the holy grail afterall for all i know, but is winter really the man to hold it?
On the last bit I think best policy is two more transfer windows to get the spine sorted out then we better see a lot more points on the board or it will be time to find somebody else to carry the 4-3-3/4-5-1 approach forward. I'd keep an eye on the FC Edmonton coach Harry Sinkgraven. Getting results at D2 level with a squad of players drawn to a significant extent from the local provincial amateur league is quite impressive. Over and out for at least 24 hours.
There is most certainly a difference between people in the stadium. Well 5000 vs. 20 000 is a large discrepancy, if its 14 000 season ticket holders vs. 18 000 single game tickets and group sales, the 14 000 group is much more likely to produce more revenue over the long-term.
Many people (myself, and if I remember correctly, you self-admittedly) have spent much less money lately. The hardcore supporters aren't as easily replaced. Maybe for a few months, but not over the long-term.
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A lot of the arguments defending Winter are simply repeating his his initial vision of what he wants to happen. People who have been critical are saying "look at the results". Those who back Winter are saying the long term will be better while those who disagree tend to point out we have very little evidence he's capable of doing anything better in the long run.
My point has been (and will continue to be the following):
1) Performance to date has been shit. The excuses (Mo Johnston, prior contract, Winter bringing in "his" players, injuries) are disingenuous at best.
2) We haven't had very long to judge so he still has plenty of time to find his barrings and prove himself. Let's all hope he does.
I absolutely agree.
The problem is that the argument from BBTB and others is that what matters are the "diehard" supporters and the fairweather fan does not matter...to them at least. My argument is that both are needed at their maximum spending power for a team to reach it's full potential. Having either group spend less or eliminate their spending completely (which happens with a fanbase that is continuously exposed to poor results) will have a domino effect throughout the entire team experience. The argument that poor results won't affect team revenues and thus the re-investment the team puts back into the club is outright false. And poor results DO affect revenues from all classification of groups, whether they be the diehards or the fairweather fans. So any fan that says "I don't care if the stadium is full or 25% capacity" obviously does not care about the team's well-being and competitiveness as much as they should.
And you are correct, I count myself as an experience that backs up my claim. My spending for 2011 compared to 2010 is down roughly 80% in all areas of spending, from tickets to concessions to merchandise. I will challenge anyone to argue that on a fan-wide basis this does not affect the team's willingness to invest more into this club in order to have a better chance to compete.
I think the bottom line is, if you don't have the players your fucked thats why he deserves this transfer window and the rest of the season before people start calling for his head.
Hears to a strong transfer window and a better 2nd half to the season
It really depends on how ML$E reads the situation.
PPl say "don't spend anything to send ML$E a message!" ML$E could react one of 2 ways:
(1) Spending is down! We better spend to make things better to bring back the fans!
(2) Spending is down! The bubble has burst. Better cut club spending to face the new reality.
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