Grass Solutions: mlsintoronto

[DigzTFC!]

Help us, help you. I think we are all tired of having an artificial surface, but most threads about this topic is just complaints. I want to dedicate this thread to possible solutions to the issue and resources. Please keep this thread with relative content fellas.

My inspiration came from a discovery channel episode on reliant stadium. They use a modular turf system, or rather interchangeable and removable pallets of grass.



It could work for TFC for two reasons. 1) The artificial surface can be kept underneath with a proper drainage system for public use and 2) it could allow be removable for other events during the year. The main issue would be if the grass would be smooth enough for soccer during the season if it were constantly removed or had section replaced. Anyways, I'm sure this was brought up in other threads, but I want to do my part.....and stop losing players because of it.

Consult: The Hancock Turfgrass Research Center

http://www.michiganturfgrass.org/

[colman1860]

This sounds like it may cost a lot...MLSE may not like that. Also, it seems were winning alot at home, regardless of losing players to the surface. I dont mind it as much anymore.

[NF-FC]

if the houston texans can afford it, so can MLSE

[madzap]

Something similar was used for the Champions League Final in Moscow this year. They were growing the turf with artificial lighting outside of the stadium.

There are some positives MLSE could work with the city on this project. For example, a greywater recovery system could be utilized for irrigation by capturing rain water from many of the structures at the CNE. Using electricity generated from the wind generator, electric powered mowers could be used for turf maintenance.

Off season, the turf would need to be housed in a greenhouse somewhere in the city, Downsview comes to mind. A solar heating system could be employed to minimize impact. Again, wind or solar generation to provide electricity for lighting and maintenance equipment.

Politically, while it's chic to be green, this would look good for MLSE and the city. Trying to provide the best surface to improve the football in the city while trying to minimize the environmental impact would raise the profile of MLSE and the city as good corporate citizens.

And IF the city insists on getting the Argos in to BMO, the existing field turf could be marked up with the grids, and we can have our turf!!

[Marco2K]

This sounds like it may cost a lot...MLSE may not like that. Also, it seems were winning alot at home, regardless of losing players to the surface. I dont mind it as much anymore.

it doesnt bother you.

well any good player wont come cause of our rubber turf. Is that not reason enough?

[rocker]

i too was researching that modular turf.. there's a company in virginia that does it.. one of their sites is the Wales national stadium I believe. The only problem I see is finding a place to store the grass when they want to remove it for concerts or whatever. All the stadia that use the technology have big areas outside the stadium where they put it when not needed. The area needs to be properly set up with irrigation pipes itself.
Although they could just leave it locked in all year with no concerts (or cover it with those hard plastic pieces for concerts, like Chicago does) and just remove it to some far-off location once fall arrives.
I did like the fact that if one of the squares gets worn out, they can remove the single square and replace it while rehabilitating the worn square elsewhere without touching any of the others. And each square has air spaces built in down below and 8 inches of height for root growth. They lock in place, although usually they are placed on hard concrete surfaces for an even pitch.

[The Pope]

^^ That sounds like a decent option if it's true they are already looking at doing something like this

[Section 117]

MLSE has the money... Just spend it already. You charges us $9.25 for a bloody beer

[DigzTFC!]

The only problem I see is finding a place to store the grass when they want to remove it for concerts or whatever. All the stadiums that use the technology have big areas outside the stadium where they put it when not needed. The area needs to be properly set up with irrigation pipes itself.

Well, I don't know the landscape of Toronto that well, but I'm guessing there could be room around the CNE grounds for a greenhouse. That also means renting and building from the municipality. However, there was something interesting that Reliant did. It has a translucent roof which the bubble can be used as. Depending on the type of grass used, you only need a certain amount of light. Maybe you could leave the grass in during the winter under the bubble or have a bubble placed over lamport during the winter to house the grass......not sure if those are better alternatives.

[zeelaw]

Help us, help you. I think we are all tired of having an artificial surface, but most threads about this topic is just complaints. I want to dedicate this thread to possible solutions to the issue and resources. Please keep this thread with relative content fellas.

My inspiration came from a discovery channel episode on reliant stadium. They use a modular turf system, or rather interchangeable and removable pallets of grass.



It could work for TFC for two reasons. 1) The artificial surface can be kept underneath with a proper drainage system for public use and 2) it could allow be removable for other events during the year. The main issue would be if the grass would be smooth enough for soccer during the season if it were constantly removed or had section replaced. Anyways, I'm sure this was brought up in other threads, but I want to do my part.....and stop losing players because of it.

Consult: The Hancock Turfgrass Research Center

http://www.michiganturfgrass.org/

taht is a cool picture

[olegunnar]

If they were going to change the pitch I think they should go to Grassmaster
http://www.dessosports.com/en/desso-grassmaster.html

It's a natural pitch re-inforced with artifical turf, to triple the capacity.

Lambeu field has it.
FCK has it as well as
Emirates stadium
Mile High Stadium
Tottenham uses it.

Even the Crapids have a field made of a version of Grassmaster's turf products.


The Colorado Rapids had already had a taste of Desso Sports’ professional approach. Previously they played on the Desso GrassMaster-field of the American football club the Denver Broncos. A positive experience. “After a careful comparison of difference artificial turf systems, we decided on the monofilament fibre Desso Challenge Pro. Desso Sports has more than proven itself in the field of design, development and installation of monofilament systems” says Bret Baird, Head Turf Manager of Kroenke Sports Enterprises (KSE), the owner and manager of the immense complex.

http://www.dessosports.com/en/sports/football/football-projects/colorado-rapids.html

[rocker]

how do you deal with the winter bubble problem with grassmaster tho?

[olegunnar]

Desso GrassMaster is a sports field of 100% natural grass reinforced with Desso synthetic grass fibres. The unique element of this patented reinforced natural grass system is the 20 million artificial grass fibres injected 20 cm deep into the pitch. During the growing process, the roots of the natural grass entwine with the synthetic grass fibres and anchor the turf into a stable and even field. In this way the natural grass fibres are well protected against tackles and sliding. Moreover, it ensures better drainage of the pitch. Despite the fact that 3% of the pitch is made up of synthetic grass fibres, Desso GrassMaster gives players the feeling of playing on a 100% natural grass pitch.






Expressed in figures: Desso GrassMaster comprises 100% natural grass and 20 million individual artificial grass fibres, or 40 000 km artificial fibres, in a single field (the circumference of the globe). Desso GrassMaster has the playing capacity of 3 standard natural grass pitches and over 250 Desso GrassMaster pitches have been installed worldwide

Top clubs like Arsenal FC, Feyenoord, Denver Broncos, Tottenham Hotspur FC and RSC Anderlecht are certainly convinced of the benefits. Desso GrassMaster is authorized both by FIFA and UEFA for top competitions.

[olegunnar]

how do you deal with the winter bubble problem with grassmaster tho?

Move it to Lamport...the bubble is a ball and chain. Loses money, and saddles us with a sub par pitch.

If that's not an option I think it would depend on the hours of use and what the max load for the turf is. I'm sure you could put the bubble on the field and water the grass etc. in the winter.

[NF-FC]

it'd be nice to have the desso in the modular system

[JonO]

Move it to Lamport...

Agreed. This is really the simplest solution. Keeps the bubble in the area and provides an indoor turf for the winter...

Although there are likely hurdles that I'm not aware of, given its apparent simplicity

[olegunnar]

Agreed. This is really the simplest solution. Keeps the bubble in the area and provides an indoor turf for the winter...

Although there are likely hurdles that I'm not aware of, given its apparent simplicity

I think that the bubble is a money pit that needs TFC gameday revenues to help the facility make money/break even is what the problem is.

How profitable is Lamport? Is it profitable or loses money? Could its budget justify and support the added costs of the bubble?

All questions we don't know.

In my uninformed opinion I think that's the issue. What venue can take on the costs and losses the bubble brings with it....right now it's BMO and that's it.

[JonO]

I think that the bubble is a money pit that needs TFC gameday revenues to help the facility make money/break even is what the problem is.

How profitable is Lamport? Is it profitable or loses money? Could its budget justify and support the added costs of the bubble?

All questions we don't know.

In my uninformed opinion I think that's the issue. What venue can take on the costs and losses the bubble brings with it....right now it's BMO and that's it.

My thought is for "BMO field" to pay for the bubble at Lamport (which is city owned anyway, I believe). That way MLSE/City fulfills its obligation to put up a bubble and it doesn't interfere with the turf at BMO.

[rocker]

Just tossing a bubble on Lamport doesn't add a "new field" tho. It makes Lamport usable all winter, but doesn't add a new field for spring and summer. BMO field was a new field funded by taxpayer dollars and turning it over to private interests just for TFC wouldn't go over well with the council (imagine the hue and cry of Rob Ford on this... UGH!).

But obviously community users don't need 20000 seats, which is overkill.
So what they need is fork over the cash to build a field somewhere nearby, truck the current field turf system there, install the bubble footings there, erect a reasonable changeroom building, and then MLSE looks like the "good guy" in replicating the exact community use field that currently exists. The Raptors have done this with community basketball courts (altho those certainly are cheaper). But reusing the bubble and current turf would save costs.

Then put grass in BMO and make it a completely professional use building. This way you don't get the complaints of the "taxpayer" crew who always complain about this kind of shit, and you still have a new field in addition to Lamport.

Looking at google maps, I would toss such a field immediately south of BMO against the main road there that BMO's west side faces. So the south goal would be near that walkbridge for Ontario place. It would require some road entrance reconfiguration, but it would be a nice location and the community users could still have the use of changerooms inside BMO Field. This could also serve as a nice alternate practice field for visiting teams to BMO if TFC is using the main field. But an alternate site could do as well.

[olegunnar]

I think the PR hit of getting rid of the bubble is overstated.

I'm not sure the displaced frisbee players would have much clout.

Also the city would stand to make more money from a stadium with grass. Don't they get a cut of the revenues? So instead of West Ham, Pachuca etc. we'd have a higher probability of "bigger" teams. Bigger teams would increase tourism etc. etc. We get West ham for the all star game, while NY is putting a grass pitch over their turf and is getting Barca.

TFC would have a better chance to get better players, right around the timetable for expanding.

Grass could mean more national team games which would also mean more $$ for the city.

Grass would be an investment expenditure not a luxury expenditure.

[DigzTFC!]

Lets keep to making solutions rather than arguments. Building another field could work, but would require more capital investment from TFC of about 3-5 million. Plus, using prime real estate for a community soccer field is probably not going to settle well with municipal planners. Anyways, it still could work.

Any other suggestions of grass installations?

[deltox]

Bubble solution.

you do what they do at the millenium stadium.

YOU GROW THE GRASS INSIDE THE DOME......WITH LIGHTS

[noochie]

When I was browsing around a while back I found this company in Georgia, they did the turf at Giants Stadium for the FIFA Womens World Cup in 2003. It is another modular turf system that you can grow on top of a parking lot if you want to.

http://www.greentechitm.com/

[deltox]

the cost to move the grass in oand out is VERY expensive.

you only would want your pro teams on the grass and the turf for the community.

but no one wants to spend $100,000 plus a few times a week to move grass in and out of the stadium

[noochie]

the cost to move the grass in oand out is VERY expensive.

you only would want your pro teams on the grass and the turf for the community.

but no one wants to spend $100,000 plus a few times a week to move grass in and out of the stadium

Why would you move it out every week? I was just thinking once and a while for a concert, and of course once at the end of the year. Not in and out constantly during the season.

[deltox]

well the grass would get torn up if its always being played on.

emmiretes and white hart lane are only ever played on for game time.


BMO is used all the time for TFC and the community.

[noochie]

well the grass would get torn up if its always being played on.

emmiretes and white hart lane are only ever played on for game time.


BMO is used all the time for TFC and the community.

Yes but it is not used during the playing season for the community as often as in the winter under the bubble. Look the solution is pretty simple; if you move to real grass... the charity events happen elsewhere. They have to decide that it is a pro stadium first. Ship out the turf in the winter and leave the FieldTurf for community schtuff.

[deltox]

agreed.

lets make BMO a top level ground.

[Blizzard]

Why would you move it out every week? I was just thinking once and a while for a concert, and of course once at the end of the year. Not in and out constantly during the season.

Are there any concerts scheduled for BMO? We had all of one last year so I'm thinking that concerts are probably not on the agenda in the future.

With the ACC and the Amphitheatre, BMO concerts seemed a bit of an oddity for me.

If they can pull it off, I'm all for it.

[noochie]

Are there any concerts scheduled for BMO? We had all of one last year so I'm thinking that concerts are probably not on the agenda in the future.

With the ACC and the Amphitheatre, BMO concerts seemed a bit of an oddity for me.

If they can pull it off, I'm all for it.

I don't think there are any, however they could do something like this to offset some of the maintenance costs (if it is cost effective of course) and modular turf would be a good solution in this scenario as well. Especially on longer away stretches and towards the end of the seaon. Just a thought anyway... I have no idea how much was made off of the Genesis concert there last year.

The conversation always seems to come back to the revenue generated by renting out BMO as a public facility. Believe me, I understand this argument. However the argument that I am trying to support is that the public use should not be the main focus for stadium usage DURING the MLS season. After that... have at 'er.