Toronto FC the joke of the league...

[CSO_BBTB]

TFC showed the league how to market to real football fans...

Were you around online when this was all unfolding? The fan groups were humoured but were not really taken seriously or treated as the central part of a marketing plan from what I could see. RPB got allocated a block of 50 seats out of 3000 in the south end for example. Once their phones were ringing off the hook after the Beckham announcement they made no attempt to expand that they just sold their entire inventory on a first come first serve basis with the result that the vast majority of people in 112 and 113 initially didn't have a clue what was going on at the front of the sections when the season started.

I suspect most of the people who wound up buying seats in the south end did so because they were the cheapest available not because of some marketing wizardry or novel marketing strategy from MLSE. Then there's the whole Tribal Rhythym Nation thing that got in the way of getting chants to spread across all the sections of the south end. Hardly the actions of an organization that saw "real football fans" as the key to getting some atmosphere going. They clearly thought they had to get a band in for that. Sometimes things happen almost by accident rather than by design.

[Oldtimer]

Greed has destroyed what was once a very positive thing.

Exactly. Greed (plus incompetence).

[Oldtimer]

Were you around online when this was all unfolding?

Yes. We both were on Simon's board, along with Batman and a few others.

TFC made some terrible marketing mistakes that other teams have learned from in respect to a proper supporter's section. "Best in the League" is relative.

Anyways, I'm done.... go back to the regular scheduled broadcast of tearing apart ML$E in every way possible. They deserve it for sure.

[drexel10]

TFC didn't save the league.
TFC didn't just create the best atmosphere, as there were some good places for that.

TFC did get a massive boost in corporate sponsorship to the league and were profitable since day 1(MLSE has something to do with the sponsorship). That is what has helped sell the business model to the likes of Seattle, Philly, Van and Portland. Just look at the jersey/stadium sponsors for these newer teams. Not sure where they are now, but TFC had over 40 corporate sponsors a few years ago. Vancouver is now the King of the hill in that department.

TFC was also fortunate to be able to capitalize on the 18-35 year old disposale income group (mostly because of location). Most US soccer was totally missing out on this groups, as it was focusing on soocer mom and suburbanites.

[tfcleeds]

Agreed that TFC should not be given much credit at all for "saving the league". It just isn't true. The sad thing is, we could still be the standard bearers of what support should/can be in this league, if MLSE hadn't killed the golden goose by basing every decision they've made on how it affects the bottom line, rather than how it contributes to the betterment of the club.

[CSO_BBTB]

Yes. We both were on Simon's board, along with Batman and a few others.

Sorry about that, been a while. All I have to say beyond that is that 15,000 candela is only for wussies.

[drexel10]

Also TFC has the most expensive tickets in the league and they are still selling 20K or more per game. I agree with most that they have been greedy and if that isn't adjusted their will be a massive decline in demand next year.

So with showing most games on GolTv, virtually no marketing, a bad product on the field, they are still making a nice profit. I mean that is a business model most owners and the league would kill for

[prizby]

I responded to the question of whether TFC saved the league so that's a non-sequitur. Most of the heavy lifting on turning things around was done elsewhere prior to 2007. Richard Peddie and MLSE deserve praise for being slightly ahead of the curve in seeing the opportunity that had been created (compare and contract with the posture adopted by Greg Kerfoot and the Saputos) but didn't do anything that was hugely pivotal to the league's survival. As for who represents the model on how to do things now do you really think it's TFC? I strongly suspect it tends to be the Sounders.

since TFC has been in the league, how many times have you heard Garber refer to DC or Columbus as an example

[james]

I don't think TFC FO deserves any credit as great marketers. In terms of TFC's initial buzz they were lucky, not smart.

The soccer market came to them, they didn't find it.

There are so many things that fell into MLSE's lap that you can not give them credit for.

-The CSA/3 different levels of government gifted MLSE an essentially free stadium, with out that TFC doesn't even get off the ground.
-For the initial season ticket drive there was very little marketing, it was the grass roots soccer base that drove the numbers to about 7000.
-The Beckham announcement pushed the season tickets to 14,000 and helped create a little buzz for the team.
-The first few home games, culminating in the Dichio goal gave this team a buzz as a great place to go.

This club has lived off those initial few weeks of the 2007 season for nearly 5 years now.

But whenever they have had to do real work and market this team it has not been successful at all.

I don't give them any credit for marketing.

The only thing I give them credit for is ruining something special that was handed to them on silver platter.

MLSE did do a few things id give them credit for.

1) The team name and badge and jersey was the best thing they ever did. They didnt follow the USA typical sport name like the Lions or dragons shit and they made the badge and name look very English, giving fans a sense that this team was going to be a propperly pro team.

2) the scarfs that came with season packages was well done, it did help build the atmsohpere at the beginning of games, something new in MLS at the time. Made me think of games youd see at Liverpool or Celtic.

3) MLSE helped make BMO a bit more like Euro stadiums with the white seats creatting a maple leaf and the words Toronto and BMO, it gave you a feelling like it was a real stadium just for Toronto FC.

4) ticket prices were well done in the first season, and made the cheapest seats behind the goals to help make the supporters section possible for groups to get organized in that section.

5) advertising in year 1 was good if anyone can remember them, i remember the commercial with Jimmy B headding the ball all the way through it. They were clean and easy, but at same time not jumping down your throat like the commercials that followed in the later years with BMO selling the fans as if we were some sort of warriors

6) Handing out those coushins which i thot was stupid at first turned out to be a great decision and sure created one of TFC best memory. Was greate on TV and great pictures in the papper of it. When people saw that they just thot TFC fans were mad.

7) Having those 2 giant TFC banners we use to pass around the stadium was quite cool at the time, before supporters even had time to organize our own tifos it made it feel more like you were in a europe stadium and it really got the fans into, some had never seen things like that before.

8) got real grass!

however thats probably just about it, it was mainly all in year 1, after year 1 i dont know what the fuck happened. Seems as if the FO did everything wrong after that point and ticket price increase vs shit quality on the field was the worst of them all. The FO seemed to even start fighting against the supporters something that created the team. The supporter groups were created without MLSE. The singing, chanting, tifos, flag waving, marching to the stadium, streammer throwing was all done with no help from MLSE. The only positive thing they did was let us bring flags, streammers and giant banners into the stadium, something they dont even seem to let us do that these days.

Now i think new teams look at what Seattle does to attract fans, how to work with fans and create that hype. New teams probably just hold Toronto up as a model on what not to do to scare fans away and fuck it all up.

[Belfast_Boy]

this isn't going to change unless the ownership does. if not, this is our future...

[CSO_BBTB]

since TFC has been in the league, how many times have you heard Garber refer to DC or Columbus as an example

Again I will point you in the direction of what I responded to. Whether TFC saved the league.

[menefreghista]

Also TFC has the most expensive tickets in the league and they are still selling 20K or more per game. I agree with most that they have been greedy and if that isn't adjusted their will be a massive decline in demand next year.

The club might be announcing attendances in the 20,000 range, and they may have even really sold that many to each game, but there definitely aren't 20,000 people in the stadium on most dates.

And unused tickets translate into non renewed seasons in the future.

[menefreghista]

MLSE did do a few things id give them credit for.

A lot of the things you mention aren't even accredited to TFC FO.

The Brennan/Pozniak commercial was by BMO, not TFC.

[drexel10]

The club might be announcing attendances in the 20,000 range, and they may have even really sold that many to each game, but there definitely aren't 20,000 people in the stadium on most dates.

And unused tickets translate into non renewed seasons in the future.

Oh I am very aware, but in spite of that, they are very profitable. Also, if attendance is near 20,000 (regardless of what everyone thinks), ticket sales are much greater, unless they have been giving a lot away.

[Fort York Redcoat]

All this because of Alexi Lalas making fun of us? Can someone find that old pic of him with his ridiculous hair and guitar and tell me how serious i need to take what he says?

[ginkster88]

how many teams post 2007 model themselves after DC United or Shitlombus

ZERO

nuff said

What are you talking about? Columbus Crew Stadium was the first soccer-specific stadium in MLS and franchises began modelling themselves after that almost immediately after.

BMO wasn't even going to be soccer-specific until the Argos owners got way too greedy and lost their chance to share the venue.

[Suds]

All this because of Alexi Lalas making fun of us? Can someone find that old pic of him with his ridiculous hair and guitar and tell me how serious i need to take what he says?

Actually, it was not Alexi Lalas. It was a baseball columnist for ESPN News responding to him. That's how far our reputation as a crap team has traveled.

[menefreghista]

BMO wasn't even going to be soccer-specific until the Argos owners got way too greedy and lost their chance to share the venue.

If the Argos don't pull out of the York U. deal TFC probably never gets off the ground. MLSE had no interest in an MLS team that far north.

[ginkster88]

If the Argos don't pull out of the York U. deal TFC probably never gets off the ground. MLSE had no interest in an MLS team that far north.

That's what I'm saying.

TFC has done nothing "right".

They didn't even expect to sell any tickets.

They advertised to all the wrong groups, on a model that has failed over and over again in the States (soccer clubs, associations, etc.)

They hired an incompetent coach and general manager.

They built a shitty stadium with shitty turf.

I could go on.

TFC have done NOTHING right. There is no model to follow.

They were tremendously fortunate to find a fanbase they didn't know existed in Toronto and have milked those fans dry for five years. Try doing that in any other city and see how long you can do it for.

TFC didn't "save" MLS, RPB, U-Sector and NEE saved TFC.

[menefreghista]

That's what I'm saying.

TFC has done nothing "right".

We are on the same wavelength.

Like I say, TFC were more lucky than smart. And we are suffering for it today.

[TFC07]

That's what I'm saying.

TFC has done nothing "right".

They didn't even expect to sell any tickets.

They advertised to all the wrong groups, on a model that has failed over and over again in the States (soccer clubs, associations, etc.)

They hired an incompetent coach and general manager.

They built a shitty stadium with shitty turf.

I could go on.

TFC have done NOTHING right. There is no model to follow.

They were tremendously fortunate to find a fanbase they didn't know existed in Toronto and have milked those fans dry for five years. Try doing that in any other city and see how long you can do it for.

TFC didn't "save" MLS, RPB, U-Sector and NEE saved TFC.

Don't forget about diehard TFC fans (usually have to buy expensive seats to watch TFC play) who aren't part of any supporter groups.

[P-NUTZ]

I don't think TFC FO deserves any credit as great marketers. In terms of TFC's initial buzz they were lucky, not smart.

The soccer market came to them, they didn't find it.

There are so many things that fell into MLSE's lap that you can not give them credit for.

-The CSA/3 different levels of government gifted MLSE an essentially free stadium, with out that TFC doesn't even get off the ground.
-For the initial season ticket drive there was very little marketing, it was the grass roots soccer base that drove the numbers to about 7000.
-The Beckham announcement pushed the season tickets to 14,000 and helped create a little buzz for the team.
-The first few home games, culminating in the Dichio goal gave this team a buzz as a great place to go.

This club has lived off those initial few weeks of the 2007 season for nearly 5 years now.

But whenever they have had to do real work and market this team it has not been successful at all.

I don't give them any credit for marketing.

The only thing I give them credit for is ruining something special that was handed to them on silver platter.

^ i think thats well put.

[P-NUTZ]

That's what I'm saying.

TFC has done nothing "right".

They didn't even expect to sell any tickets.

They advertised to all the wrong groups, on a model that has failed over and over again in the States (soccer clubs, associations, etc.)

They hired an incompetent coach and general manager.

They built a shitty stadium with shitty turf.

I could go on.

TFC have done NOTHING right. There is no model to follow.

They were tremendously fortunate to find a fanbase they didn't know existed in Toronto and have milked those fans dry for five years. Try doing that in any other city and see how long you can do it for.

TFC didn't "save" MLS, RPB, U-Sector and NEE saved TFC.

^ this is correct as well

[eustacchio]

All this because of Alexi Lalas making fun of us? Can someone find that old pic of him with his ridiculous hair and guitar and tell me how serious i need to take what he says?

The guy slide tackles buffalos, I think that's pretty serious.

[C.Ronaldo]

it should be about the bottom line,
just not short term though, as MLSE has tried to do.

it should have been an organic, slower, long term growth plan.

[C.Ronaldo]

Don't forget about diehard TFC fans (usually have to buy expensive seats to watch TFC play) who aren't part of any supporter groups.

i was once die hard, streamers, costumes, chants.

alas, MLSE has killed that spirit.


kind of hard to support when you are forced to sit 95% of the game

[drexel10]

Don't forget about diehard TFC fans (usually have to buy expensive seats to watch TFC play) who aren't part of any supporter groups.

Yup there are many of us that spend 1K a season hoping for something to cheer for.

[james]

That's what I'm saying.

TFC has done nothing "right".

They didn't even expect to sell any tickets.

They advertised to all the wrong groups, on a model that has failed over and over again in the States (soccer clubs, associations, etc.)

They hired an incompetent coach and general manager.

They built a shitty stadium with shitty turf.

I could go on.

TFC have done NOTHING right. There is no model to follow.

They were tremendously fortunate to find a fanbase they didn't know existed in Toronto and have milked those fans dry for five years. Try doing that in any other city and see how long you can do it for.

TFC didn't "save" MLS, RPB, U-Sector and NEE saved TFC.

well thats is very true. well said!

[mastermixer]

It's barely been mentioned that MLSE has let this team be mismanaged from the beginning. Maybe if we had the plan we do now from the beginning those seats would be full every game.
Too little too late? Possibly.

[ilikemusic]

I was actually thinking of the fact that this league was going nowhere fast. When TFC joined the league if I remember correctly the league was in serious financial trouble and it seemed that almost yearly a team would fold. The support this team received from it's fan base rejuvenated MLS and it showed fans in america that the authentic soccer experience could be replicated in MLS. It took a canadian team to do it. I submit that without the toronto success there would be no philly or portland or seattle or vancouver etc. In my opinion this league would ahve been done without TFC overwhelming success. (financially anyways)

WTF are you talking about? Do you write copy for Paul Berine?