Paul Mariner: We're moving along

[tiberius]

^ five years in and we have to wait and see if the guys the consultant they hired recommended turn into, "seasoned MLS coaching material"?

Sure, why would we have even thought they might have atually hired seasoned coaching material? It's TFC where you get to learn on the job.

Both Mo and Preki were actually hired for their previous MLS experience - hows that working out for yah? I'm sure going to the MLS well again would work out great... what are you relying on? The "close your eyes, third time lucky" approach? Sure lets get another MLS coach... there is such a bountiful crop of great MLS Coaches that want to come to Toronto - Carumba - how did we miss picking one of them up last winter? (no pun intended)

If the rookie coach was a problem for folk, they should have worked it out of their system in Jan/Feb/March. You can't blame Winter for being a rookie... that is just a fact, adjust your expectations. Blame Anselmi for that one if you must get your knickers in a twist!

To bring a European over to be head coach for the first time probably requires a good year of adjustment, particularly since he was brought in to a dog's breakfast. Expecting fast miracles from this hire is utterly unrealistic.

[Roogsy]

Mo had experience? LOL

I guess Ruud Gullit doesn't count among your "European" coaches. LOL

BTW a "European" coach. CAN be a successful choice. While Gullit was a bad experience, Backe seems to have been a good one so far. The point is that the "year" of adjustment wasn't necessary in either case to know whether you picked right or not.

This argument that people are expecting "fast miracles" is a farce. Its an argument of extremes. Nobody wanted world-beaters but there is no plausible argument I have seen that proves any team retooling needs to suck ass as well. That is just giving MLSE a ready-made excuse.

[Beach_Red]

Yes, and no one ever says we should "adjust our expectations" when it comes to Mo and Preki. Maybe if they adjusted prices to go along with our expectations.

What we have to accept is that the people doing the hiring can't research candidates for the jobs themselves and can't judge how well the job is being done. They accept this, too, and hired a consultant.

MLSE could poach like Seattle did, or they could spend some money and bring in someone who has run a team before, not a consultant who works for a few weeks.

All I'm really asking is that they take TFC as seriously as they do their restaurant or their condo business - is there any chance the manager of Real Sports has never run a restaurant before and is learning on the job? You can be sure the waiters had to have more experience than Mo did to get their jobs. Has any architect been hired to design one
of their condos who has never designed one before?

Usually you get what you pay for but as Pookie has pointed out, we pay near the top of the league and we get on the job training.

So, yeah, I guess we need to adjust our expectations. TFC is an entry-level position for management.

[Roogsy]

And they could have had a DP at the beginning of the season like half-a-sozen other teams did instead of looking to bring one in after the season is out of reach. Knowing there were going to be difficulties (which we all acknowledge is an obvious consequence of the changes enacted during the off-season) there were no measures taken to mitigate the effect of the disruption. Instead, the fans once again are asked to be patient while the team makes promises of a better future they can't possibly guarantee. It puts the burden on the fan and places little or no accountability on the front office. Something we should have learned to demand after the experience of our last regime.

[Roogsy]

Yes, and no one ever says we should "adjust our expectations" when it comes to Mo and Preki. Maybe if they adjusted prices to go along with our expectations.

What we have to accept is that the people doing the hiring can't research candidates for the jobs themselves and can't judge how well the job is being done. They accept this, too, and hired a consultant.

MLSE could poach like Seattle did, or they could spend some money and bring in someone who has run a team before, not a consultant who works for a few weeks.

All I'm really asking is that they take TFC as seriously as they do their restaurant or their condo business - is there any chance the manager of Real Sports has never run a restaurant before and is learning on the job? You can be sure the waiters had to have more experience than Mo did to get their jobs. Has any architect been hired to design one
of their condos who has never designed one before?

Usually you get what you pay for but as Pookie has pointed out, we pay near the top of the league and we get on the job training.

So, yeah, I guess we need to adjust our expectations. TFC is an entry-level position for management.

QFFT...

[Chevy]

The system is the foundation, we must stand behind our vision. It is a great system that is attractive. We must let the flower bloom....ive stated before, I will give Winter and Mariner until May 2012 then I will review my position....until then I fully stand behind our vision.

+1 .

[J .]

Both Mo and Preki were actually hired for their previous MLS experience - hows that working out for yah? I'm sure going to the MLS well again would work out great... what are you relying on? The "close your eyes, third time lucky" approach? Sure lets get another MLS coach... there is such a bountiful crop of great MLS Coaches that want to come to Toronto - Carumba - how did we miss picking one of them up last winter? (no pun intended)

If the rookie coach was a problem for folk, they should have worked it out of their system in Jan/Feb/March. You can't blame Winter for being a rookie... that is just a fact, adjust your expectations. Blame Anselmi for that one if you must get your knickers in a twist!

To bring a European over to be head coach for the first time probably requires a good year of adjustment, particularly since he was brought in to a dog's breakfast. Expecting fast miracles from this hire is utterly unrealistic.

How about expecting not to be embarrassed or go into each game with with the very distinct possibility if the other team scores early your side will get routed before half?

I dont think most people had unrealistic expectations, I for one, thought this team would be MLS worst, Ive said that since January and I am sadly so far correct.

Most people I talked to thought we would be competitive. That is not unrealistic.

[tiberius]

... Nobody wanted world-beaters but there is no plausible argument I have seen that proves any team retooling needs to suck ass as well. That is just giving MLSE a ready-made excuse.

You are right.

The thing is, MLSE and TFC FO don't need any excuses, nor would I accept any foolish crap spin from them anyway. They have an announced (almost all paid) attendance of 18K-20K a game when the product is extremely underwhelming, to put it mildly ... hard to apply much "pressure" when the bucks keep rolling in... Who feel like idiots here? Them or us? They have our money, and we bought a low quality product. I certainly knew I was buying a Walmart product this year, didn't you? Or did you really think you were buying from the Bay, Sears or Nieman Marcus? You may have paid Nieman Marcus pricing, but all of the cards have been on the table about this team, since late last summer... I am unclear - are you telling us MLSE and Tommy A. fooled you again???

And they could have had a DP at the beginning of the season... ...Instead, the fans once again are asked to be patient while the team makes promises of a better future they can't possibly guarantee. It puts the burden on the fan and places little or no accountability on the front office. Something we should have learned to demand after the experience of our last regime.

100% Agreement.

Winter et al could have succumbed to pressure for a March DP, but kinda risky don't you think - from past experience? Rushing this big ticket move, when chances of DP success in the MLS are mixed at best, hardly speaks of long term thinking and could screw up Winter's ability to be successful down the road. Let these guys shop for the best DP or two (or three!) that they can get, between now and the start of next season.

Either we get some new players in, in the next few weeks, and things pick up dramatically, or the season is in the dumpster and MLSE will get the wake up call at season renewal time. Either way, we win.

A very poor season ticket uptake in September would be the very first time in FIVE long years, that the supporter and fan base ACTUALLY holds MLSE and Tommy A. accountable for what they have done, in terms that they understand. Tommy A. was saved from complete embarassment by having a reasonable waiting list to bail him out last September. Threatening to not renew your season tickets has not and will not be enough to leverage the change that is needed. I really wish they could be held accountable sooner than September, but that is just wishful thinking - there is very little, if any, leverage anybody has, when paid attendance is still as high as it is this year...

Tommy A. is playing without a safety net this year and he will only be held accountable, for all of these years, for all of the mistakes, for all of the arrogance when he falls hard on the ground at ticket renewal time.

[tiberius]

Yes, and no one ever says we should "adjust our expectations" when it comes to Mo and Preki. Maybe if they adjusted prices to go along with our expectations.

Your expectations are high, so the ticket price is high.

All I'm really asking is that they take TFC as seriously as they do their restaurant or their condo business...

Here is the thing - they are running it like their restaurant/condo business. The TFC diner/condo is still raking in lots of upfront cash, lots of units sold, and plenty of profit. So... they will be focusing their efforts right now, on some other diner/condo that is losing money right now (think Raptors). In October of 2011, if the TFC Condo starts leaking cash, some attention/accountability will swing around to the Toronto FC condo... until then, everyone might as well take a nap!

[Pookie]

^ to use your analogy, the condos residents are paying the fees this year but there are lots of for-sale signs.

Even worse, there is limited to no traffic during the open houses. That should cause the management company to raise their eyebrows.

I see this as our biggest issue as supporters of Toronto FC. We can debate how to win but IMO, winning does not impact our disposable incomes.

Some folks are willing to pay $125 to see Beckham. That's a one off as was the "novelty". We cannot support a team over the course of a season at the current prices.

And here's the thing, with MLS revenue sharing AND the fact that TFC subsidized the league at 2007-08 price levels, we shouldn't have to be subjected to these prices.

[tiberius]

^ to use your analogy, the condos residents are paying the fees this year but there are lots of for-sale signs.

Even worse, there is limited to no traffic during the open houses. That should cause the management company to raise their eyebrows.

I see this as our biggest issue as supporters of Toronto FC. We can debate how to win but IMO, winning does not impact our disposable incomes.

Some folks are willing to pay $125 to see Beckham. That's a one off as was the "novelty". We cannot support a team over the course of a season at the current prices.

And here's the thing, with MLS revenue sharing AND the fact that TFC subsidized the league at 2007-08 price levels, we shouldn't have to be subjected to these prices.

Totally agree, the tickets prices and demand are the bottom line issue - the value for money - Some want to improve things by raising the "value" side of the equation right now, or in the next month or two. I believe we should fix the pricing issue in October first, then move on to the value issues that have not been addressed...

[Beach_Red]

^ to use your analogy, the condos residents are paying the fees this year but there are lots of for-sale signs.

Even worse, there is limited to no traffic during the open houses. That should cause the management company to raise their eyebrows.

I see this as our biggest issue as supporters of Toronto FC. We can debate how to win but IMO, winning does not impact our disposable incomes.

Some folks are willing to pay $125 to see Beckham. That's a one off as was the "novelty". We cannot support a team over the course of a season at the current prices.

And here's the thing, with MLS revenue sharing AND the fact that TFC subsidized the league at 2007-08 price levels, we shouldn't have to be
subjected to these prices.

Yes, I agree with you, but I do want to say that winning does affect our disposable income. Or really, the term we should use is discrectionary income - the money we spend on non-essentials. We rank those non-essentials (at least I do, I can't afford everything I want ) and tickets to see TFC will rise and fall on that list for some people depending on how well they are doing.

There are probably a lot of people in Toronto who had to chose between tickets to the Jays and tickets to TFC and for a couple years chose TFC and have now moved back to the Jays. If TFC got better some of those people might move back.

For a few years there the only way to guarantee a ticket to every game was to have season tickets so that also increased the value (but not the cost) of the tickets. That extra value is gone now but it may return someday.

[Pachuco]

Yes, I agree with you, but I do want to say that winning does affect our disposable income. Or really, the term we should use is discrectionary income - the money we spend on non-essentials. We rank those non-essentials (at least I do, I can't afford everything I want ) and tickets to see TFC will rise and fall on that list for some people depending on how well they are doing.

There are probably a lot of people in Toronto who had to chose between tickets to the Jays and tickets to TFC and for a couple years chose TFC and have now moved back to the Jays. If TFC got better some of those people might move back.

For a few years there the only way to guarantee a ticket to every game was to have season tickets so that also increased the value (but not the cost) of the tickets. That extra value is gone now but it may return someday.

I agree, and I can speak for myself. If TFC didn't play worst then my Rep team ever did then I wouldn't even be considering letting go of my tickets. My brother in law let his tickets go last year and instead has a membership to a Golf Course now. I personally would probably go away on an all inclusive new renewal time if I don't end up renewing. This has everything to do with the product on the field for me, and I know people around the stadium that I've talked to share the same sentiment.

Toronto can 100% afford to support this team at these prices, but not when the product on the field is as bad as it is.

[tfc2008]

Maeple Leafs can play every night worst, Acc sold out. Why they like hockey, good are bad.
The so called (TFC Fans) cry and cry and drink beer and beer (so cheap) and cry about the tickets.
Dont buy tickets and play cricket are something els cryers

[Pachuco]

Maeple Leafs can play every night worst, Acc sold out. Why they like hockey, good are bad.
The so called (TFC Fans) cry and cry and drink beer and beer (so cheap) and cry about the tickets.
Dont buy tickets and play cricket are something els cryers

It's obvious you've never been on a Leaf's forum. And it's obvious you don't understand the demographic of the people that buy seats to a Leaf's game....or should I say, corporations.

[ilikemusic]

Maeple Leafs can play every night worst, Acc sold out. Why they like hockey, good are bad.
The so called (TFC Fans) cry and cry and drink beer and beer (so cheap) and cry about the tickets.
Dont buy tickets and play cricket are something els cryers

It's obvious you've never been on a Leaf's forum. And it's obvious you don't understand the demographic of the people that buy seats to a Leaf's game....or should I say, corporations.

You understood that?

[Pachuco]

You understood that?

What's actually funny is he managed to make a rhyme

[ag futbol]

4-3-3 does not have to be ultra forward thinking... it can be relatively conservative. either way the end result is we need better players.

i hope this soolsma type crap does not repeat itself because for anyone who knows the level of this league could figure out that was never going to work.

[69Chevy396]

I am one of those season ticket holders who has lost all interest in TFC and only go to the games now because I paid for the tickets. There are so many things to do in this city, my weekends are important to me, I don't want to be miserable watching horrible soccer. I don't even care if they win or lose anymore, just give me entertaining football. Based on my experience of the last five years, I must say that this one is by far the most disappointing, I never expected the thrill to be over so soon. MLSE blew it in my view, they have done nothing right it amazes me how they can be so successful at the cashbox while delivering such bush league products. I won't be back next year, and there are many others like myself who feel the same way, that gold and red waiting list this company prides itself on will be like tumbleweed in the desert very soon.