I doubt you'll ever be convinced that management is in control of the personnel decisions on this team, so I won't bother debating that with you anymore.Originally Posted by Beach_Red
As for the timelines, I completely disagree. The DeRo and Cann contract situations were both addressed during the pre-season. Winter's intention was clearly to resolve both issues prior to the start of the regular season.
I don't really agree with that. He had to deal with the Celtic shit storm right away and let that cool off. He made an offer to Dero after that and had to give his time to respond and think about that offer. With regards to Cann, in training camp Cann left but what was back for the start of the season. Now his focus turned to Attakora and his offers had to be given time for Nana's side to mull things offer.
Sometimes you can't rush father time, things have to work themselves out.
Wow! The hate rages on, along with the total disregard for his abilities. I suppose Soler, and for that matter, Hans Backe know nothing of what they speak. Surely you and I have a better understanding of what role Dero has been asked to play on their squad and whether he is fulfilling that role! He already has 2 goals this season and let's not forget that he no longer takes free kicks, something that always added to his goal scoring totals here. Let's wait and see where his totals end up EH? That's what people keep saying about TFC and Winter. They need time to adapt. It's a new system. Give them time to gel. Yet you won't afford Dero the same thing.
I really don't get the hate here. Let's compare this to a boyfriend/girlfriend scenario, one where there are promises not to cheat. Said person is great in bed and a great partner but you cheat anyways! He/She gets mad. You say "get over it". They say "I'm done with this shit". Throughout the process they pleaded for you to live up to your word and you repeatedly did not and then set your own NEW conditions on what it would take for you to fulfill that original promise. All the while they continue to live up to their end of the original agreement, minus some understandable contempt for your actions. Finally, they leave.
So what is it that Dero did to you that invokes this negativity? He delivered the goods here in TO, in fact he had career best years, yet you still have this tainted view. Forget the tiny little antics that resulted from the deception. They were a product of their environment.
Seriously, he's gone and will continue to a force in MLS for New York now.
As for Winter being the truth! I am skeptical and have every right to be so. He has been here and built relationships with FO and the players for only 4 months. Dero, Cann and Attakora have had substantially longer relationships with FO than he. And WE the fans have had the LONGEST relationship with FO. Based on what they have done in the past easily allows me to be a skeptic, to be cynical, to hate if I so choose. Winter is just a coach/technical director, nothing more, who gets his paycheque from them. I don't expect for him to speak the truth about his seniors, nor about the players if it is something that goes against his bosses wishes. He needs to secure his own job.
I do not believe that everything we hear is truth, not ever. It's sad but it's reality.
yeah i was sorta thinking this too, this isnt the first time we've heard this.
Of course the opposite argument is that MLSE/FO are the ones causing the players to act like this... (i dont necessarily subscribe to this thought. Initially i believed both parties were in the wrong. Now certain parties are sticking their nose in places it doesnt belong and doing nothing for their reputations)
I was never convinced JFJ was in charge of the Leafs, but I believe Burke is. As soon as they hire a president for TFC I'll be convinced. I've spent a lot of time in a similar business with lots of agents, backroom deals, short-term contracts, big egos and political manouvering. Someday Winter will be able to run the team completely if he's determined enough and really wants to, but there were already loyalties and compliacted relaionships in place when he arrived.
I think there needs to be a stronger buffer between Winter and MLSE. Maybe it's Mariner and he's handling all this behind the scenes. Winter seems like a decent and honest guy who is just telling it like he sees it.
This organization eats those guys for breakfast.
The DeRo situation was most certainly not resolved during preseason. Rewriting of history does not make it so. In fact, it would have lingered on longer if DeRo had not finally put a stop to it.
I can't comment on the promises made to DeRo, because they way it was told to me the understanding was made between DeRo and Mo - I don't know if others were involved or knew about it at the time that it was made. Others definitely became aware of the promises and when that happened the reaction wasn't "Sorry, that's between you and MO" it was "well, we'll see what we can do".
The agreement regarding Cann's contract was absolutely NOT between him and Mo, everyone knew about it, accepted it and understood it. In short, Cann's salary this year plus his salary from last year were supposed to average $124k over the two years. To get to that number, Cann was expecting a salary this year of $170k and the team was offering $160k. The difference stems from differences between "salary" and "earnings" last year (his salary was one figure, but he actually earned more from bonuses etc.).
Mo's departure played no part in the Cann contract dealings. The entire club was aware of the deal, considered the deal to be one that it made, not one that Mo made, it recognized that deal, and was willing to honour that deal until a disagreement over what was to be included from last year ("salary" or "earnings") to determin this year's salary.
god i hate this thread.
im out.
You are neglecting the fact that Winter and Mariner tried to resolve it during the preseason. DeRo didn't accept the proposed contract extension, and that's why the situation lingered.
Whether or not Winter and Mariner made a reasonable offer is up for debate, depending on an individual's assessment of DeRo's relative value, and the fact that he was already legally bound to a contract.
I can't speculate on Winter's motives, but if he was aware of the history (and I can't imagine him not being, but I'll admit that its possible) the offer that he made DeRo wasn't one that would give him anything to think about. It was a token offer, one that would allow the team to say "We made him an offer, but he demanded a trade".
I know he's addressed it already Roogs, but you are setting up the ultimate strawman argument here... (Sorry couldn't resist)
The bottom line is that Mo Johnston initially signed both players and is directly responsible for the terms and conditions of those contracts. The club may or may not have been aware of any verbal commitments that Mo made when the players were signed, but unless those terms are guaranteed in writing, I don't understand how anyone can chastise the current management regime for not honoring those commitments.
Anyway, let's just agree to disagree on the matter, because we've already discussed it ad nauseum.
^ Because of the, "well, we'll see what we can do". That's when they took over responsibility for the verbal agreement. So the the question becomes did they have any real intention of "Seeing what they could do," or was that just another empty promise? Did they actually try and were told no by upper management? Or did they not try?
But you're right, we should just agree to disagree.
And agree that the game against Vancouver tonight is going to be very different from the last one and that TFC is going to win it 2-0.
I am not denying that they tabled an offer, although "try" is a subjective term. Essentially they offered him a coaching position after the contract was up. I don't know how much effort you could say was put into that contract offer. However, I was responding to your claim that they resolved the issue before the season started, the fact of the matter is they did not. It was resolved 2 games into the season. Whether you are pro-DeRo or not, that is fact.
I hope so Beach...
Roogsy, this is what I stated...
My apologies, I understood your statement that it was "addressed" as also having been resolved. You are correct sir.
Not a surprise. JDG played his whole adult life in Europe. He knows how things are done.
Either way, there are lots of people at fault for what happened to these players, but to blame the players ALONE (which means they do bare some responsibility) is just plain wrong. The fact of the matter is that they signed with Toronto under false pretenses. You can argue all you want about getting things "on paper" but all you are doing is reaffirming the fact that a person is forced to do that because otherwise the team is untrustworthy or unethical. That is hardly a vote of confidence.
Personally, I don't blame Winter for much with regards to the player contracts. That's not really what he does for TFC. I do however blame him on how he managed the relationships. What he did to Cann was embarrassing. I know people create excuses for him but in many circles it was viewed as a public shaming. With DeRo he should have either stepped up to MLSE and said "I want this guy, do what you have to do" or "If he does not want to stay under the current contract, get him out of here before the season starts". He did neither, and that is where I have a problem with him. And the whole Nana thing you guys know where I stand with that.
No, I am not impressed with how he "handled" things. But the funny thing is that I think those that are not the public face of TFC are actually more to blame for what has gone on, definitely more than Winter whose real responsibility lies on the pitch and where I have obviously been unimpressed even moreso. That is where I have a real problem with him. I simply don't believe he has the experience necessary to do more than "teach a new style" and that's about it. I think other coaches will outcoach him. I think he will continue to have friction with some types of players. I think that his unfamiliarity with MLS and with North America will be a major handicap for him. In short, I don't think he has what it takes to make us contenders. Teaching soccer players a different style of playing is simply not enough. A good coach has to do more and I have not seen anything from Winter that gives me that confidence.
Yeah, I think this is very much an mlse inspired thing. I think they want (and in a way it's a very noble idea) to be as canadian as they can. there's been all sorts of pronouncements about growing the game in canada, about their investments in brennan, dasovic etc, and helping to create a strong national team. It seems that they see all that as just as important as winning.
Mo fully bought into this, and after starting with a heavy british influence, tried to get as canadian as he could, which reached it's peak in season 3, bringing in de ro, serioux, gerba etc etc.
it ran into problems after they brought in coaches from outside who were committed to winning first and foremost, screw what it meant to soccer in canada as a whole.
first off with preki, who got rid of gerba and serioux as soon as he could, and going by rumnours would have liked to get rid of de ro as well, preki was ousted after a bit of a coup by dasovic and other coaches, secure in the knowledge that the fo would have their backs. he left with his parting shot at de ro and de guz about "a couple of canadians". Now winter is saying similar things.
wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the 'homegrown' players or coaches now have the attitude that they're more important to the club than people from outside, that their development is just as important as the team winning. that's the message that's been running through the club from up high for a long time, why wouldn't they believe it.
mariner talked about winning cultures, that's not what tfc's been about, it's been a 'developing the game in canada' culture. as i said it's a noble idea, but I'd rather see it the other way round, build a winning culture first, then introduce academy players into that and canadian coaches into that winning culture.
Nana signed under false pretenses? What were those?
Nice misdirection. You know who I am referring to, especially since the previous posts to mine are quite specific as to who we're talking about but instead you choose to act dumb. Priceless.
Roogsy with all due respect who would have been the ideal coach then? Bearing in mind that probably the handful of coaches that are difference makers are employed and to getting them to come to this shit show is slim to none.
I think Winter is probably the best option to teach players how to play his system the problem which there are several are: one the majority of players are shit with zero soccer IQ, two he didn't have enough time to sign his players, and three adapting to MLS rules and officiating which even we have problems with it.
Yes it is early but I see enough signs and have spoken to enough people around the organization who all agree we are on the right track for the first time in 5 years. It will take some time, but we will see incremental improvements through out this year andnext offseason is the true test as then we can see who he brings in and truly makes this his team
Steve Nicol!
I mean he's the only coach that would make TFC successful.
My first choice would have been Nichol. Given the resources he's had to work with, I think he's had a sterling MLS career. Besides that, I think a lesson from NY here would have been a good idea. A coach from a smaller European league/country that has actually won something with cheaper rosters and has shown to get the most out of his players. So a coach with a history of winning in Scandinavia or Belgium or something similar. That's where NY showed real intelligence in selecting a coach. Tell me, what has Winter won as a coach?
I don't disagree. That's why he'd be great as the Head of the Academy or as an assistant coach, like he was in Ajax. A head coach is not about development, which is what "teaching players how to play" is all about. I am shocked more people are not in tune to this fact.I think Winter is probably the best option to teach players how to play his system the problem which there are several are: one the majority of players are shit with zero soccer IQ, two he didn't have enough time to sign his players, and three adapting to MLS rules and officiating which even we have problems with it.
I see this often and I have no idea what this means. Anything would have been an improvement on Mo. So in that respect, yeah sure who wouldn't be thankful of the change? But is this change that will result in success for TFC? Some maybe, but to be frank, I don't think we should get our hopes up too high. I think Winter's tenure at TFC will result in TFC adopting this style of play as it's trademark and perhaps a couple of first-round appearances in the playoffs but that's about it. I have not seen anything tactical or innovative from Winter that tells me that he's going to be able to outcoach a Schmid or Arena or that he will be able to outmotivate a Kinnear or Kreis.Yes it is early but I see enough signs and have spoken to enough people around the organization who all agree we are on the right track for the first time in 5 years. It will take some time, but we will see incremental improvements through out this year andnext offseason is the true test as then we can see who he brings in and truly makes this his team
But I suppose a small modicum of success is better than what we've had for 4 years. I just hoped that with a fresh start, we would've aimed a little higher than simply "not crap".
By the way, there are VERY FEW people in this organization that I would care at all if they believe this organization is on the "right track". Mostly because some of them were saying it as well with Preki.
Danny is one person I would respect his opinion even though I wouldn't agree with him. I can't think of any others that I think would know their ass from a hole in the wall.
Last edited by Roogsy; 05-18-2011 at 10:45 AM.
You're missing the point the bottom line is that it has nothing to do with Mo. The deals weren't some secret shared only between Mo and the player, they were well known and understood by everyone at the club. To not realize this, is to think that Cann and Mo had a deal that the club new nothing about, but TFC were willing to accept Cann on his word and offering him $160k. That defies all logic. If the club new nothing about the deal, or felt that the deal was something that they didn't have to honour because it was made by Mo then there's no way they ever would have tabled a $160k offer to a player who was under contract for $124k. Be very clear about it - the team's position isn't "we can't honour this deal because it was made by Mo and not us". The club's offer of $160k is tacit recognition of the deal AND the club's willingness to honour it in principal. The disagreement is over $10k, not the deal itself, who made it etc.
see i thought the way Cann handled it as embarrasing. as a pro athlete you have a responsibilty to the team as well as yourself. walking out at a time where he was really needed in the rebuild i thought inappropriate.
and from management's point of view someone had to put their foot down and show that holding the team ransom tactic would not be tolerated.
not saying that cann didnt deserve the raise, i certainly think he did, but i dont think winter had much of an option. publicly being pushed over by single players was never going to fly. dont think either party wanted to be in that situation though.
This is where Cann screwed up. He should have taken the $160k and run. But since he didn't accept that deal, I guess it was never offered, it never existed and the team has made no recognition whatsoever of these under-the-table deals huh?
Dude, do you even read your own posts? I looked back at ALL YOUR POSTS IN THIS THREAD... and you don't mention who "they" are....
You expect me to read your mind? You said the players are not completely to blame and that "THEY" signed under false pretenses.
I then asked you to explain how Nana signed under false pretenses.
Are you talking about De Ro and Cann only and not Nana? Cuz the thread is about Winter complaining about all three of them. And then you generalized about "THEY".
Don't generalize if you meant De Ro and Cann.
Not only that, this is the first time ever that Winter has coached a professional team.
Coaching a youth team is a totally different thing.
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