to be fair, he did start his run-up from a very deep positionOriginally Posted by habstfc
to be fair, he did start his run-up from a very deep position
This line right here shows all you have done is gone to Wikipedia before commenting on NYR personnell. Because if you've watched them once, JUST ONCE this year you would know Marquez has been moved back to CB. And yes, Dero is now playing pretty much the position Marquez was playing last year for NYR. Not a DM, not an AM either. Pretty much plays like a CM.
Not sure how you can compare LFC and Hodgson for TFC and Winter. LFC have a stable squad of tenure that aren't trying to play a new system. Hodgson did not inherit a bunch of players (Cann, Gargen, Gold, Harden) who quite obviously have difficulty playing the newly adopted system. Kenny came in as a club hero/coach and instilled some confidence in them, they responded with a renewed vigour and a couple of good signings and things are slowly turning around.
Toronto doesn't have the luxury of a stable squad, or even a squad that has ever played the possession based football that Winter is trying to instill.
The only way this is ever going to work is if it's given time. Winter understands this and has set low expectations for the club this year. Replace the people who can't play the system, 50% of our backline and I'll be happy(er).
People are far to quick to throw Winter under the bus, not just you, but a good portion of this board. We're not going to win jack this season, middle to low table at best. We might win the NCC, but it will be down to luck more than anything. Last nights game proves that.
I expect some signings to replace the "old dogs" who can't adapt, if that doesn't happen THEN I start to question Winter. But as far as this season goes, it is what it is. Them's the breaks. The club is getting to grips with a whole cultural shift on the field and that will not happen overnight.
well said
Not to diminish Dalglish's impact but I think selling a disinterested Fernando Torres and picking up two hungry young guys in Luis Suarez and Andy Carroll also helped.
I think Winter/Mariner will bring in some more pieces when the summer window opens up.
Actually, what I said was that it would be foolish for TFC to offer DeRo a long term, Designated Player contract given his age and the fact that his production would eventually decline. His production has declined this year vs his previous campaigns but there's always a way to spin it and this new "role" thing is apparently the crutch you are hanging on to.
Incidently, are the NYRB equally foolish for not tying up this can't miss, never aging superstar as their 3rd DP?
You folks point to DeRo's departure as a failure of current Management. You use it to suggest they are inept. I call BS on that argument as they effectively unloaded an aging player, with a suck balls attitude, for younger talent.
Stats can be found easily at ESPN.com. That's on the internet.BTW - There's one pretty easy explanation for him taking the same number of shots (if that's even true since I can't believe anything you say and I haven't looked for myself). Anyway, I would venture to guess since he's no longer a striker/forward/winger his shots are more then likely outside the box and less shots where he gets behind the defense.
His year over year shot totals are similar. His goal totals are down.
If he is taking the same number of shots but from weaker positions on the pitch and unable to convert then perhaps he is failing to see better distribution options.
Either way, much more of a season to be played and perhaps he can turn it around. Perhaps the Red Bulls will offer him that 3rd DP slot in the offseason. But as of right now, Winter & Mariner made the absolutely correct decision at this point in time.
I was taking a break, but I cant let this go....
Hodgsons biggest whine was that Rafa left him a poor squad of players. He fucking said that in the press, and sealed his fate in doing so. Liverpool fans dont like the coach blaming the players for their own inadequacies, and we shouldnt either.(re: winters recent outburst)
The reason they were playing like shit was they were trying to follow Hodgsons 'middle of the pack' system, and it went against the grain of everything Liverpool stands for and the players knew it.
Kenny did more than 'instill confidence in the players' he got them to start playing more creatively and freely and anandoned hodgsons system. Previously dodgy players suddenly started scoring hat tricks and braces,
Things arenty 'slowly turninig around' The transition was instantaneous. were winning games with 5 goals even though stevie is on the bench, and were playing the kids. Statistically speaking, if we'd started the season with Kenny, it would have been between us an United for the title.
So your asssessment is somewhat, wrong to say the least.
No, we dont have the luxury ofplaying a system that apparently nobody in MLS is able to grasp (except the coaches who want to break it). The way you talk about this 'system' is that its so alien and outlandish that nobody over here could possibly figure it out.... good reason to scrap it if you ask me or we'll be playing 'can he figure out the system' with every single new arrival.
Setting low expectations at the outset is what turned me off Winter to begin with. Its pre fabricating excuses, and if i were inexperienced and unsure about my initial performance in a job, i might do the same.
Well said.
I agree with those that demand to see tangible improvement after the summer transfer window.
However, given the situation that Winter and Mariner walked into in Toronto, it is absolutely ludicrous to expect them to rebuild this club into a contender a few months into their inaugral season.
To those who are ready to write Winter off in August, all I have to say is, I'm glad you're not my boss.
You should be glad if your goal is not to perform. Every job on the planet has expectations of it...except the TFC coaching position. If no playoffs is a MUST for this season can we at least agree then a contender and dominant team is a must for next season or should we accept mediocrity again with a hint of success in the form of maybe squeaking into the playoffs? That's called aiming low and its what Mo had us buying into for 4 years. Apparently we haven't learned a thing.
And for the millionth time nobody is writing him off. What we're saying is show us something soon other than excuses.
Honestly, as with HabsTFC it couldn't be more obvious that you haven't seen him play with NY. Or you would atleast be capable of commenting on anything other then stats you find on your preferred internet site. So I'm going to stop analysing Dero with you, because at the end of the day, you have no credibility on this subject.
This is a good point. It's really up to Mariner, isn't it? Winter has little experience as a coach but zero in finding players to come to a low-ranked MLS team in Canada. This is where MLSE could really spend some money, there's no salary cap on scouting or kickbacks to agents or bribes (yes, of course, that never happens...)
So you were turned off to Winter when the expecations were set low by who exactly? Winter?
So you're saying that you were turned off to Winter when? Before the season even started?
Fine...it's semantics Roogsy. You're not writing him off. You just hate everything about him and are giving him some arbitrary amount of time to turn it around.
Whatever.
I'm done with this discussion just like I was with the DeRo topic. It's tiresome.
In a league with a salary cap, where teams with the financial wherewithal (TFC being one of them) can sign a few extraordinary players and 10 of 18 make the playoffs I don't think its unrealistic to expect better, even if you are 'rebuilding'.
Yes, by next season it is entirely reasonable to expect results, if not a dominant team, at least a team that is comfortably in a playoff spot by the end of the season and is capable of doing some damage in the playoffs.
Glad you finally realized it.
Never said that. But I have been vocal about what I don't like about him because I think it impacts the team the most.You just hate everything about him
As opposed to giving him no benchmarks at all, no performance measures at all and having no expectations at all? Sounds too familiar.and are giving him some arbitrary amount of time to turn it around.
The schedule I suggest is a compromise between what others have done in short amounts of time and what people on this board seem to be ok with. If he can't even do what I suggest by next year, we're a sad bunch. We might as well just call ourselves the Washington Generals and be done with it.
Do you have ANY expectations of this team or is anything they do, so long as they field 11 guys on a field to kick the ball around, enough for you to be happy? What are more reasonable expectations in your mind?
Last edited by Roogsy; 05-19-2011 at 01:07 PM.
I'm not disagreeing, however, the BIG difference here is that the squad was STABLE. TFC is not. Our roster changes drastically year over year. We have never really had a decent core group since day one, mostly due to the ever changing managerial system and their views on who that core group should be.
Yes of course, but again, the big difference here is that most of the squad already knew how to play free and creative football. The same cannot be said for Toronto.
Fine, I accept that I downplayed the "instantaneousness??" of his impact.
Not sure how you got to "alien and outlandish". I was just saying that given our preki era style it's vastly different, and some players are obviously having difficulty with it. I would hope that we have more scouting ability than to sign a player and then hope he can play possession football. Maybe I'm giving the MT too much credit. But I think giving up on it a third of the way into the season (given the changes) because of a slow start is laughable.
What exactly would you like him to do, set high standards so that you can all ream him out for failing to achieve them instead? It's called being realistic.
Yes, as soon as he started making excuses, which happened to be before a ball was even kicked. I dont want a rookie, who needs all the time in the world to learn how things work around here, I wanted someone with experience, drive and charisma and an understanding that winning games in this league takes as much psychology as it does skill. So far Winter hasnt shown any of these traits, quite the opposite in fact.
Being turned off, doesnt mean I was writing him off though, so give it a rest.
Actually some if the fans are the ones that are giving him excuses. If I recall he said the expectations were the playoffs but he did state that we are in a rebuilding phase so not to expect instant results
The one thing that some of you are forgetting is that he had two months to start on his vision of what the squad was going to look like. Every other team had an extra two months plus they were all in place at the time. Winter and Mariner didn't have enough time to go and find all of the players they wanted.
I know it's quickly dismissed by people on this board, but Winter has had almost the exact same amount of time as Hans Backe did. Winter was hired on January 6, 2011, Backe was hired on January 7, 2010. He turned the team over immediately and started 2010 on fire. He faced almost the exact same scenario as Winter has, with a squad he needed to retool and new talent that needed to be brought in.
It seems Toronto fans are not worthy of loftier expectations.
Last edited by Roogsy; 05-19-2011 at 02:06 PM.
almost the exact same scenario? where does MLSE come in play?
True, but there are examples to support both sides of the discussion.
Hans Backe did produce instant results, and he deserves credit for rebuilding NY into a contending club early last season. He also had the luxury of an MLS brokered deal to sign Henry and Marquez during last summer's transfer window, which bolstered their lineup considerably.
I think RSL and Colorado are prime examples of the typical timeframe in which we can realistically expect positive results after a new regime undertakes a drastic rebuilding assignment with a football club.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 05-19-2011 at 02:22 PM.
His exceptional results right from the start did not have the benefit of Henry or Marquez, that's a red herring argument. In fact, signing them in the summer caused a bit of a drag on performance for the first little while.
Do you think that up until the debacle of the Cup final in Toronto, MLSE could have gotten more out of MLS? They sure talked big about how important TFC was to the league.
Well they did give us DeRo.
I feel like i am debating with the George Bush propaganda machine. If you say I have no credibility often enough, without fact, you'll believe it to be true.
I found those stats from the same place you folks did when quoting his multiple goal campaigns as justification for a raise and DP contract. The only difference is now the stats don't suit your argument.
Let's make this simple.
Did Winter and Mariner err in not signing DeRo to a DP contract?
If not, we agree.
If so, how can your partner in crime praise NYRB for their management of the roster while making this same (alleged) mistake in not offering the DP tag?
You may be putting too much emphasis on the DP tag. The relationship between Deo and management had a lot of problems and that was one of them but maybe not even the main one.
It seems his relationship with the management in NY is better.
The difference is, you have nothing but stats to go on when it comes to proving that Dero is apparantly having a bad year with the Red Bull.
When Roogsy and myself tell you that he's worth the money we think he's worth, we are talking not only stats, but personal observations of what he does on the field. We aren't blindly saying "we've never seen Dero play but he had 13 goals last year, so surely he's worth DP money". If that was the case I'd make the same case for Cunningham.
You of course, have no way to give us any personal observations since you haven't watched him play with NY. So although you may be able to pull one stat that isn't as relevant to his role now, you have no way to even comment on why that stat is what it is. When people who have seem him play tell you that he has an entirely different role on a much different team, you choose to ignore it, for the simple fact you can't comment on it.
So continue to throw out your highly technical observation on Wikipedia, but as long as you don't watch him play, I'm fairly certain you can't be credible on this subject.
YEAP, and it wouldn't be far from the truth if you said Henry was actually dragging them down until the last 4 or 5 games. Plus he was mostly injured on and off until this season.
Marquez has been an impact since he got here, but Winter also has a La Liga DM DP to work with as well.
And then of course, you are right, we aren't at the summer transfer window. So Hans up to this point last year had certaintly done a much better job.
BTW - What's made NYR a much better team is the acquisitions outside of the DP acquisitions. Rogers, Teemu Tanio, Tim Ream, Lindpere for example. NY is nothing without these guys.
Last edited by Pachuco; 05-19-2011 at 03:33 PM.
Let's make this simple.
Did Winter and Mariner err in not signing DeRo to a DP contract?
If not, we agree.
If so, how can your partner in crime praise NYRB for their management of the roster while making this same (alleged) mistake in not offering the DP tag?
From what I read on the NYR boards, there is some agreement that if he plays well this year he'll be their third DP next year. Not sure whether that is valid or not, but who knows, I'm sure Dero will make it known if he's been robbed of another promise when the end of the year comes.
You would think you'd give it more time before you start claiming NY is making the same mistake. Fact of the matter is NY didn't promise him the DP tag when he got there, something TFC made a mistake of doing and they never lived up to their promises, even though in my mind he was overachieving on the field. As much as I liked Dero before he got here, God knows he was unbelievable when wearing a red jersey.
There is also speculation that NYRB might be bringing in a different DP for their 3rd DP come summertime.
How they can fit everyone under the cap I don't know how they'll do it.
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