Simon Kuper (Soccernomics) on Aron Winter
http://blogs.thescore.com/footyblog/...cast-apr-26th/
starts ~35:30
-wishes him well
-thought Winter was good player but doesn't strike him as deep thinker about soccer
-no evidence he's the sort of person who's brilliantly equipped to do that kind of job
-TFC might have fallen into the fallacy that a very good player makes a good manager, but no evidence to support
for reference, he's a brit but raised in Holland and knows Ajax.
Well, does TFC really need a "deep thinker" or a brilliant guy?
We've been talking a lot about RSL lately and in that interview with Dave Checketts that was posted he mde a good point - a lot of the credit goes to Jason Kries, deservedly so, but it was just as important that they also hired Lagerwey, "A Georgetown law graduate," as GM. It might have been good for TFC to have had a lawyer negotiating contracts.
Winter isn't a one-man operation so a lot will depend on the job Mariner does, or really, the job they do together.
Well this is whats been sold to us, and what seems like the majority of posts on this board seem to be lapping up. It takes brilliance and careful analysis of the local game to create and implement a system that not only wins trophies but defines the identity of a club for future generations.Originally Posted by Beach_Red
I thought that's Klinnsman's role to create vision and objective, then hired Aron, Bob and Paul to implement
of course, i'm not informed, so just a thought
Hopefully kuper is wrong but only time will tell.
For further context...kuper is a history/anthropology dude who writes about footy.
So, at the end of the day hes another writer and what exactly do writers know about great football minds and tactics?
Grain of salt imo
Find me a great soccer mind who says that winter is not a good soccer mind
I can't listen to the interview now. However, I wonder how much Simon Kuper knows about MLS? I've read most of Soccernomics, and I think it's a great book. However, large parts of it are not very relevant to MLS, with its salary cap & many other rules. I just wonder if Kuper is the right "expert" to decide how the combo of Winter, Mariner, and De Klerk will do in Toronto & MLS.
^ Pretty much.
Kuper seems to have formed an opinion without much evidence. I think it's too early to tell what sort of tactical acumen Winter possesses. Let's ask him again what he thinks in a few years.
a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha
pretty much.
also i dont remember Winter ever being sold to us as a brilliant soccer mind so muhc as having experience as a player and as a coach of the reserves and in the academy
also im not entirely convinced this dudes opinion counts for much especially seeing as we are only 7 games into the season and this is the first first team Winter has coached (with Mariner and De Klerk helping).
A few years? How come TFC always has to be someone's on-the-job-training?
fair enough but who in the league would have been interested to take the spot in a hostile environment which has seen little success on the field in 4 years?
would you want to take a coach from outside the league with no experience in the MLS?
those are really the only options outside of hte one we picked
When RSL hired Kreis as coach, Garber nearly chocked on his coffee.
He had no record whatsoever, except as a player.
Kuper's footy expertise is statistics. Apart from that, he is no more knowledgeable than the average person on this board.
I agree with Tobor. What kind of substantive opinion can possibly be formulated after a month, or even a year?
I guarantee that Jason Kreis would have had an abysmal evaluation after his first year of "on the job training" with RSL. A couple of years later, and Kreis is now the toast of the league.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 04-28-2011 at 07:30 AM.
Klinnsman was sold to us as the soccer mind, not Winter. Winter was sold as a promising young coach, with an Ajax background. No one ever said he was Cruyff.
Some media started talking about "total football," which is nonsense (but is all that people know about Dutch football), but that didn't come from ML$E.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 04-27-2011 at 12:35 PM.
Oh, there's a good chance that Winter and Mariner will be the toasts of the league in a year or two, I'm still very optimistic.
But like Checketts said, the hiring of Lagerwey - a lawyer as well as an ex-player - helped a lot. Who knows, on his own Kriess may have failed. That's why it's really the Winter-Mariner combination that makes this look good.
Like I've said before, RSL is our model on how to get out of the mess left by MoJo.
It goes both ways though. A lot of TFC fans have put their faith in Winter and Mariner despite no real proof so far that the right moves are being made.
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Because, for better or worse, MLS is not exactly the Holy Grail, footie coaching wise. It is a lower - maybe mid-level league with aspirations of greatness. As in many other sports coaches are expected to learn on the job and climb the league ladders as they show competence (or better) at each level. Winter has shown his competence at the developmental level with Ajax. Now he is taking the next step. Don't think for a moment that if he does an outstanding job at TFC we will keep him forever. He'll move on to greater challenges (and bigger paycheques).
soccernomics was the most painful read ever
+1. MLS is ranked around 30-40th in the world in terms of player quality, so the same should hold relatively true for coaching expertise.
I for one think the new team has done a commendable job. For the first time in five years you can actually tell there is a system in place and a theory on how to win.
Granted its still a theory as we don't yet have the bodies to win consistently. Considering the foundation can be seen after just a few games is a great sign.
I love it how everybody treats Soccernomics as some kind of bible
The funny thing is, Soccernomics wouldn't approach assessing coaches using opinions of whether they are "deep thinkers" or not. The authors would whip out some stats to find out whether a coach wins more games than average coaches or something. Indeed, the "sample size" of Winter wouldn't be enough for conclusions in the Soccernomics way of looking at things.
Which "people" exactly? I would say a significant majority of folks posting in this thread, are taking Kuper's comments with a big grain of salt.
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winter is doing just fine -- i watched tfc play football last night
wow 2016 and things are looking up --- come on you reds lets go
This is perfect and should be forwarded to Kuper.
Winter was brought in because he did a very good job DEVELOPING YOUNG PLAYERS into GOOD TEAMS in Ajax Youth system...which is EXACTLY what's expected of him here...and he's ably helped by deKlerk and Mariner...I listened to the Kuper interview on the Score, and nothing he said seemed relevant to MLS or TFC....what was annoying was listening to Kritian jack (who I respect) acting like a love-struck little girl during the interview...it was sickening..
Everyone is also aware that Kuper wrote a book on the history of Ajax? Not to mention others on soccer that aren't based on stats?
On the other hand, TFC has a manager that Kuper has heard of.
OK sorry not everybody but there are plenty who do, the Score are always bigging Kuper up
Kuper is entitled to his own option.
For a club that wants to play entertaining football with a large focus on youth development Winter seemed (and still seems) to me to be a good choice. Couple that with the pairing of Mariner and his MLS experience and I don't see why this isn't a good hire.
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