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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    It's twofold.

    It restricts or delays the criticism but now Winter has drawn a line in the sand that gives the entire team an "Us vs The rest of the league" mentality. There may be a difference between the league and the other teams in the league but the mentality works for the team either way to give that underdog work ethic a chance to flourish.
    Interesting point!
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilikemusic View Post
    Media in the dressing room is stupid. We all know this.

    The problem here is that this is just another in a long list of examples that exposes an organization operating by the seat of it's pants, and consistently failing to make decisions with any kind of foresight.

    Whether you think Molinaro and the other ink stained wretches deserve to be in the locker room, or whether they even need to be in there at all, it isn't really relevant. In North America, the sports press does their job a particular way, and they will write stories if a team attempts to change that.

    As it is, regardless of your stance on locker room access, or whiny reporters, this entire issue could have been avoided if this fucking club would have just called up MLS and said "hey, were thinking of altering the specifics of our media relations operations in order to help foster a more professional organizational culture and we have some proposals we would like to have a discussion with you about".

    Instead, Winter and whoever else made this decsion just said "Fuck em! Lets do it! We'll see if Garber's got the stones to step in.".

    Its typical TFC business though.
    Yes, it could have easily been avoided. That's why we're hoping it was a strategy. Otherwise...

  3. #483
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    The bit about this being a strategy makes sense. Because why wouldn't have someone (even an intern) looked up in the rulebook whether Winter could close the dressing room to the media in the first place? Then we wouldn't have had this symbal show (i.e. a minor gong show) to deal with.

  4. #484
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    it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for forgiveness? lol
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  5. #485
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    Meh - I really don't get what the big deal is. Tried and failed. End of story really. I doubt many outside of this little forum care. And to those who complain about the rule-breaking, I guess you have never sipped tea at a tailgate?

  6. #486
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    http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/20...-vs-the-media/

    Aron Winter vs The Media

    My thoughts on the controversy surrounding Aron Winter banning media from the TFC locker room last week.

  7. #487
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    I'm glad this was resolved. I don't know what i would've done if i couldn't see half-naked men saying profound things as "total team effort" and "110 percent!"

  8. #488
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    TFC should just build a secret second locker room underneath the current one - players have to pull a certain book off a shelf, and it makes one of the walls slide back, revealing the hidden entrance.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza View Post
    I'm glad this was resolved. I don't know what i would've done if i couldn't see half-naked men saying profound things as "total team effort" and "110 percent!"
    LOL
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza View Post
    I'm glad this was resolved. I don't know what i would've done if i couldn't see half-naked men saying profound things as "total team effort" and "110 percent!"
    I now want a story in the paper with the statistics on how many TFC players are circumsized. I need to know!

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    I now want a story in the paper with the statistics on how many TFC players are circumsized. I need to know!
    And what about lenght,media boys should measure it and let us know,now that we know media has full acsess to the locker room that's minimum they can do for us.I want to know who is real capetan in that team.

    I would like to read Cathal's and Weehlers article about this only,other guys can write about the game.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


  12. #492
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    Media gossip suggests Michael Essien swings a beer can. Our female supporters will delight in such details.

  13. #493
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    Nice article today John, although I disagree with the last bit. Hitting the post and having a perfectly good goal disallowed for no reason would be unlucky

  14. #494
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    Note: this is cross-posted to U-Sector and thus has some U-Sector reference. Also, U-Sector knows me very well so it's a bit casual.

    I hesitate to get into this.

    Although most of you know me as the fat, bald alcoholic that's good for 2-3 own goals a year in USI/OL, I am also a trained journalist. I know. I even have done a little sport writing. Oh, and I'm stuck covering this team until the Marlies beat opens up and allows me to go back to the front of 113 and slowly kill myself with substances.

    So, yeah, I have some thoughts.

    Couple things first:

    1) I'm well aware of the utter stupidity of 99% of post game stuff. I'm not all that sure why we still do it.

    2) I would never, ever compare what I do with a real job. My father was a cop. That's work. I watch sports for money. That's pretty much a sign that western civilization is doomed.

    So, that out of the way let me address this from the journalist’s perspective.

    Although lacking in redeeming qualities and owing to an utterly un-transferable skill-set, sports writing is really fucking competitive. That's not to say there aren't some (a lot?) of journos that are a bit, um, challenged, but it is to suggest that getting a job watching sports for a living is something that a lot of people want to do, think they can do better than you and are willing to do for stupid low wages.

    There are less full-time pro sports beat writing jobs in North America than there are jobs as pro athletes. Although not a direct comparison (being an athlete is a true meritocracy, sports writing has lots of politics and luck involved), you could make the argument that it's harder to become a pro sports beat writer than it is to become a pro athlete. Less impressive to the ladies (have you seen the journalism groupies -- shockingly they do exist, but we're talking Sporty Spice versus a threesome with Scarlett Johansson and Natalie Portman. Wait, what? Where was I? Oh yeah, the access issue...), but more difficult to obtain.

    Again - I AM A DRAG ON SOCIETY. However, trying to hit deadline with an impatient editor text messaging you every five seconds and 10 other guys -- catty guys often -- trying to show you up with ANYTHING...it can be stressful. There are, after all, 15 guys that want my job. I need to get stuff.

    So, I'm reluctant to give up anything that *might* lead to a story. As long as access is equal (no room for all) then, you're right, it really isn't *that* big of a deal. It's fair. I *can* do my job. However, I'm not sure you, the fan/reader is being best served.

    Stay with me...

    AGAIN -- 99% of the shit athletes say is beyond useless. "Give it 110%, one day at a time, blah, blah, blah." But, we go down there game after game (and trust me, I don't want to see Dan Gargan's penis anymore than the rest of you -- exceptions to that desire are well known; no need to repeat it here -- but what I do want to see is how Dan Gargan is getting along with the coaches and other players and whether he has a copy of "Asian handicapping for Dummies" in his locker beside the rail of cocaine -- please note: Dan Gargan DOES NOT have these things at his locker).

    Long story short - Dressing room access gives me a better chance of finding something interesting that, in turn, *you* might find interesting. As I've said 4,765 times elsewhere a reporter is really just a proxy for the fan. We go places that you can't and, if we're good, provide you with insight that enhances your enjoyment of the game. When you deny reporters access, you're really denying the fans access.

    The most serious line I will write in this here: I have a big problem with that. I think giving the fans a little bit of insight into the club is the least they can do. They make a lot of money playing a game (yes, even MLS players -- how many of us here make six figures - that's the median).

    Trust me folks, I'd rather be drinking with your sorry lot than doing this. However, I recognize that this is one way that I might actually provide the world a service that, if not important, is at least entertaining.

    I wrote this at 2 a.m.: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/toro...source=MLS+News

    It took forever because I had to wait until the team got back to the hotel. That's why I'm still up.. It's not all that fun, nor as interesting as it could be. But, anyway. Although it's not a perfect example since I'm not in San Jose, it does illustrate why timely access is important. If I get into the room, the story is filled 90 minutes earlier and online at 2am, rather than 4am, when its targeted audience has gone to bed/hooked up with someone they are going to regret in the morning. In the instant news cycle that's problematic and it will drive traffic away and thus not generate as much revenue. Bottom line stuff that's not interesting or important to the reader, but vital to understanding the journalist’s position here. The industry is not strong enough to give up any revenue. So, TFC's decision was impacting bottom lines (in theory anyway).

    Big picture stuff - society does need journalists. We may lack ethics, smell and are generally annoying, but every so often we report really important stuff that ends up changing the world. Not in the Toy Department, but the Toy Department is a revenue producing part of the industry. This argument is a tad bit self-important for me to continue right now, but buy me a beer one day and I'll continue my thoughts. We're better off with media, bottom line and media needs to be profitable to be good.

    I'll wrap here, but before we do let's look at what I produced post game. Is it of any use? Let's look at the quotes alone.

    Winter: “The first half was not good. We needed to make changes.”
    "(Nana) was not in the game"
    "Julian is a good player, but in this league you have to be careful. He’s come a long way. We have to go slowly.”

    Mostly dull as paint. Like Winter. That's his job, or at least how he sees it with the media. But the comment about Nana kind of jumps out. Especially when you realize he said the same thing after Chivas

    Gordon: “Aron kind of went at us at half time,” Gordon said by phone from San Jose. “[He told us] that the commitment wasn’t there.”
    From what I’ve seen, I think that (JDG) changed the game,” Gordon said. “His ability to control the midfield was and drive possession was vital.”
    "When guys see the big money they tend to want the player to score a lot of goals and to be creative offensively,” he said. “That’s not the role of a holding midfielder, but what he does out there is so important.”

    Note: I really like Gordon.

    He paints a picture -- it's a bit cliché, the ranting coach inspiring the troops, but still. Some fans may enjoy being told of some (albeit minor and predictable) behind the scenes stuff.

    I'm different from many journalists in that I'll fully admit my bias and agenda. I lead him into those JDG quotes. Why? That Julian isn't a goal scorer is a lesson this fan base really needs to learn. He gave me the "changed the game" stuff by himself though.

    Lastly JDG: “It was good,” he said. “It’s another 45 minutes and it helps with the confidence. What’s more important is there was no pain though
    "“Tonight was a positive point,” he said. “We are getting better.”

    Julian: great player (at times). Terrible quote. I needed to quote him if I was going to write about him though. Journalist 101.

    So, did that story add anything to the narrative. I think it does in the fleeting way that any deadline writing does. It sets up two main storylines that I will follow this week. 1) What the fuck is wrong with Nana and 2) Can Julian lead this team under a system seemingly designed for him. If you read me all the time, you'll see how those stories evolve and your understanding of the club will increase.

    Do I need the dressing room for that? No. But, why would I willingly give it up?

  15. #495
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    Not to ignore your entire comment and discussion that was written way too early in the morning/late at night, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by SweetOwnGoal View Post
    Do I need the dressing room for that? No. But, why would I willingly give it up?
    And what if "dressing room access" was turned into "media room access" at the same 15 minutes post-game?

    The thing that I've seen here is that every journalist that has pointed out the need to keep access has also stated that they need dressing room access, and suggests (in an unwritten way) that having access to all 18 players (etc) elsewhere is not sufficient.

    The other thing that never comes up relates to your comment about "Gargan's penis". Really, do we want to invade on their privacy in such a way? That also really limits who can go into that dressing room. Ten minutes from the final whistle (which is the MLS rule, despite what is written on the signs) is not much time to:
    * shake hands with the other team
    * thank your fans
    * get back to the dressing room
    * get a quick post-game comment from the coach
    * get undressed
    * shower
    * begin getting dressed.

    From past experience, the 10 minutes usually comes up around the middle of the post-game comment from the coach (which coincides with the getting undressed bit). It also seems (this year) that all of the players are going to the gym to bike (as per past interviews), which pushes that time even further along...

    I know that we're in an instant gratification culture here, but forcing journos into the dressing room post game puts the athletes in an uncomfortable position (changing, etc), and puts the journos into a potentially uncomfortable and awkward position. Can you really invite a female reporter into a men's change room while the men are changing?

    What about a male into the Canadian National Women's dressing room immediately post game while they're all changing?

  16. #496
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    Post game coverage from San Jose seemed to have taken place in a gym, using a TFC backdrop.

    Is TFC making a point here?

    There are also two mistakes on TFCs web site this morning:

    1) Made Our Point - Gorodon's goal earns TFC a 1-1 away draw (sic). Yes, it looks like the guy who writes the headlines on the web site either doesn't know how to spell GORDON, or he needs a new keyboard.
    2) http://www.torontofc.ca/news/2011/04/road-point-reds says: "The Quakes next travel to New York on April 16 to take on the Red Bulls, while Toronto return home to host D.C. United on the same day." Has the LA game been cancelled?
    O, Maple Leaf around the world, You speak as you rise high above,
    Of courage, peace and quiet strength, Of the Canada that I love.
    Remind us all, our union bound by ties we cannot sever,
    Bright flag revered on every ground, The Maple Leaf forever

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfur View Post
    Not to ignore your entire comment and discussion that was written way too early in the morning/late at night, but...


    And what if "dressing room access" was turned into "media room access" at the same 15 minutes post-game?
    The difference is that the latter gives me the tools to do my job and the former the tools to do it well.

    The most important skill for a journalist is a keen sense of observation. As the "media room" would be an artificial environment, it wouldn't produce much to observe. Those that point out that most post game stuff is mundane are right. If you do the interviews in a media room they'd be even worse -- cliché central because the whole act of going to that space would put the players in a certain frame of 110% one day at a time mind.

    Since the players "live" in their dressing room it's a more natural environment for them. That, in turn, makes them more likely to be candid -- especially if the face asking the question is known to them. There are also all kinds of dynamics at play in a dressing room that a good journalist can pick up on and use to enhance their coverage. Not all of that is reported -- much of it is background stuff that is used to increase the reports knowledge and understanding of the team. That, in turn, allows them to tell better stories -- stories that go beyond cliché.

    A direct example: The 2009 dressing room was divided and there was leadership gap. Although no one was writing "The Canadians hate the Americans and no one is a leader" it was understood what the problems basically were. That, in turn, helped fuel a lot of the reporting that helped to expose the issues that ultimately led to Mo Johnston being fired. There were other factors, of course (the losing especially), but having the media digging contributed. A lot of what they knew came from access.

    On the other side of the issue look at Europe. There they have next to no access. Almost everyone agrees that the type of coverage that comes from that is crap -- speculation and rumours. Many use that as an example of why we shouldn't trust media here. I'd suggest it's a better example of what happens when access is denied and a demand for coverage remains. In short, be careful what you wish for.

    The thing about this debate is that a fan that is convinced that the "whiney" journalist is just being a pest and that the club needs to be protected from their prying eyes is never going to get it. They think the club is right, period. So, it's a bit pointless arguing.

    However, they don't really have a deep understanding of the issue.

    The club doesn't have to give reporters access (or, in this case, the league). They are a private company. It's short-sighted not to though.

    I'll let you in on something: I hate going into the room. It does seem odd. However, I understand why it *is* beneficial. Or can be, anyway. Sometimes it's just cliché and that's what people tend to focus on.


    RE the naked issue - it's a really old and mostly settled debate in pro sports. Females go in. It's understood that it's a requirement of their jobs and it’s expected that they are treated with respect.

    No one really covers women’s sport (not making a value judgement, just stating a truism) so the reverse issue doesn't come into play very often.

  18. #498
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    SweetOwnGoal: That was a fine and very entertaining post. The RPB forum has some of the best, most insightful rants/football observations one can find (Ok, I'm neglecting all the other dross, mine included, but still.....). And good article too, even at 2am.

    Good points about access, but couldn't a compromise be made? I could be wrong but it sounds like you were able to get more specific quotes and 'direct' your inquiry towards issues that interested you because you were talking directly with a single individual over the phone. ie. Later, when a better conversation could be had? It seems that's difficult to do in the locker room scrum. It levels the inquiry, and the players minds must still be elsewhere and in some cases wish the journos were as well.
    Last edited by los sonadores; 04-10-2011 at 09:54 AM. Reason: typo

  19. #499
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    Interesting aside to this story...

    At the Masters this weekend, the only female reporter on duty there was denied access to the locker room.

  20. #500
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    The ironic part in all of this debate is that the mainstream media are now in direct competition for the commercial dollar with the very teams they strive to cover.

    Long ago, teams identified that money was flowing toward sports coverage, be it print or broadcast, and the median demographic was the ticket buying public. Hence, the very teams media outlets strive to cover are now, via in-house and leage media systems, actively competing to draw away advertising dollars and readership numbers from the very media that are allowed in to cover them.

    They aren't interested in giving mainstream media equal access when they can take exclusive access to their own players and feed that onto their own in-house media outlets to attract viewers to exclusive content and advertisers to that viewership.

    So it's nice to see noble beasts like John Molinaro - and you are among the noblest now that CBC is no longer a rights holder - strive to maintain traditional media access priviliges. But dollars uber alles, babe.

    I just go to the games and only give this club the money for the tickets. Nought else. I dont' get drunk on MLSE beer, I don't fatten up on their overpriced food, nor do I sing and flail madly about. I just enjoy the game they present me, watch closely and make my own mind up.

    I will NEVER pay for Gol TV and it's lame production values, but neither will I fret about diminishing media access. They were proper fucked years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfur View Post
    Interesting aside to this story...

    At the Masters this weekend, the only female reporter on duty there was denied access to the locker room.
    Im writing the golf gods now to express my displeasure. Clearly she cant write about golf while not seeing Tigers ass in a shower.

 

 

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