Originally Posted by ExiledRed
Dear lord I don't think I have ever agreed with ER this much ever.
Dear lord I don't think I have ever agreed with ER this much ever.
Last edited by Roogsy; 03-20-2011 at 10:04 PM.
I have but one question for you Denime.
Where did I say we need to fire our coach?
I am really tired of you making things up. People are not saying what you claim they are saying.
Here is another thing about Winter that worries me. I understand he wants to establish a style of play here. However, we currently don't have the players to play this system. So why persist with it until we do?
It's pretty clear that this is seen as a long term project and that the still need to get rid of some of the crap players. So why not a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1 until we get they players we actually need to play his system?
This is what worries me and a major point that gets overlooked around here. I get that Winter wants to bring in a higher level of football. But logic dictates that if you don't have the personel to do it, then by insisting on running that style without the people that have the ability to do it, the ones that are currently employed to do it will do it poorly. The only result that can come of that is losses and we're talking about losses in bunches.
I wholeheartedly agree. Bringing the system in gradually as you bring the personel in is a much better strategy than dropping it down all at once on a group of players that can't handle it. Could it be that he simply does not know how to adapt the style or create a hybrid of the style that maximizes the players he DOES have as oppose to using a system that relies on having players he DOES NOT have?It's pretty clear that this is seen as a long term project and that the still need to get rid of some of the crap players. So why not a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1 until we get they players we actually need to play his system?
I doubt it. I'd be very suprised if he wasn't well versed in the fundamental tactical formations. He may be too commited to playing a promised attacking style though.
With very limited actual information to go on, I have to wonder if his read on the players is wrong. The back line setup still puzzles me. Bringing on the academy kid instead of Zavarise or Yourassowsky. Very strange moves.
He's tinkering with his experiment and he used that game as a practice session. If his prime motivation was winning that match, he wouldnt have made those moves.
If that is the case, I feel sick to my stomach.
"Tinkering" is for the preseason. For practice during the season. It isn't for real games. You'd better have confidence that what you're fielding out there is something you think can win you the game or you'd better get on your horse and find a starting XI that you DO have confidence in.
just because Exiled rED says it doesn't mean it's true!!
again it's the 1st game after a a couple of months preseason - geeeezzz - hell let's hang 'em and start all over again.....
I think I can quantify the problem as I see it now:
Winter thinks that there is no pressure on him, and he has time to dick around, because he's already flattered us by telling us 'we're knowledgeable fans' and then used that flattery against us by claiming that 'knowledgeable fans know that things dont happen overnight'
Now he's laid the groundwork of excuses, he can take his sweet time and if he sucks he can call it 'building a culture.'
TFC coach is and always will be a high pressure job.
Carver knew it....Cummins not so much.....Preki knew it too, and despite what anybody else says on here....he still won the NCC, got us beyond the CL qualifier into the group stage, beat Chicago 4-1 (with the alleged defensive anti-football), beat Cruz Azul squarely and signed Santos who might be the only forward we've seen since Dichio who actually knows where the goal is.
Winter should get time to make a competetive team, but he HAS to improve on Preki's apparently poor record, and he has to stop pretending there is no pressure. There is always pressure, especially after five years of suck.
absolutely not.
I trust my intuition here though, I'm not just pulling theories out of my arse, and despite the fact that Roogsy has agreed with all my posts for the last two pages, I dont think he believes for a second that my word is law.
Winter has never pretended there isn't pressure - he has maintained since the beginning that it will take time - much more than a preseason and 1 game....
i like aron and i still have some hope,but he is a moron for starting that back 4,jus fucking brutal.
Just got back from Vancouver. I saw some positive things on the pitch.
I also saw the same negatives I ranted about in the pre-season, specifically regarding the porous D and the protection of everybody's media darlings because they're likeable.
It's gonna take a lot of will and work to turn this club around. Let's hope MLSE keeps the faith in Winter, because he's been handed shit and told to make gold.
Yeah it's one game I know.
The offense, when it got the ball, was sparkling. TFC managed to play quite well when they had the ball, there were periods with good possession. But ultimately, our defense (which at was stocked with 3 of TFC's most popular players [well 2 now that Cann had a falling out]) was god awful as per usual.
His hand was forced, and that's all I'm gonna say.
You mean it will take much more than an unproductive, uninspiring pre-season where we got beat by Orlando and Charleston in tournament play, lost a bunch of players, made few significant signings, provided training to supposedly good players we didnt sign and a then played a season opener which turned out to be a dreadful 4-2 loss against a Canadian rival on its first MLS outing?
I know it will take time, Winter's constant reminding us of that makes me nervous as hell though.
I dont think he has the time he thinks he needs, the supporters are already writing off the season, which basically means lower attendance already.
Not good enough, mate. You have info to share, share it, or your just blowing smoke.
Yes, because any time someone becomes aware of problems at the club they need to share the exact information, including the source, or else they're not credible. Bite me.
Cann won't be playing that position again.
TFCRegina is pretty credible on here.
I just wonder what it could be. I'm sure we'll find out at some point.
Wasnt questioning your credibility, just saying if your not prepared to explain what you mean by 'his hand was forced' you shouldnt say anything.
If Winter's hand was forced to play him at LB despite the fact that it would probably cost us, then we have MASSIVE problems.
Tell me again why the coach isnt in charge of who gets played and where?
If Winter doesnt have the control that a coach should have, he should quit.
If he took the job, in the knowledge that his tactical and player related decisions could be overridden by somebody else, I dont want him.
^So is this what is being implied?
Anselmi to Winter: "We can't let that holdout by Cann pass. We have to punish him"
Winter to Anselmi: "OK, we won't just give him his starting job back. But I have no players, so I have to put him in somewhere in Vancouver. OK"?
I think I'm going to cry.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Moderator
Doesn't that seem like kind of a silly scenario? The idea that Anselmi, after all of the heat they are catching for the team's lack of success, would intentionally hamstring the team's defense as nothing more than childish retribution?
And that they would still play Cann anyway, but simply play him out of position? I mean, if you've got to put the guy in the game, it would make sense to put him in his native position - I'm not sure what kind of "punishment" it is to play Cann at LB for a game.
Plus, this isn't even getting into the idea that Anselmi could or would pressure Winter about something like that in the first place. We occasionally heard murmurs about Mo interfering in coaching decisions in the past, but I've never heard of Anselmi interjecting himself.
"His hand was forced" could mean he had personnel issues, and was forced to put out those selections.
- Scott
Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 03-21-2011 at 05:02 AM.
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
No,you did not write we need to fire Winter word by word,wonder what you will demand after one year if he does not perform to your standards,to let him building on or to fire him?
Shakes, it's not silly. Anselmi wants to stop the contract renegotiation circus. He wants Cann punished to make an example of him. Anselmi wouldn't know or care what the onfield implications of that would be. Cann at LB could well be just the tortured outcome of all that.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Moderator
But how would forcing Winter to play him out of position for a game accomplish that?
You piss off your new managerial staff by forcing them to make bad decisions, you make it that much more likely that your team may lose the game, and Cann still gets to play anyway!
And if Anselmi isn't bothered by onfield implications, why not go for the big fish, and force Winter to put DeRo somewhere silly, or sit him altogether?
I mean, what example would he be making of Cann in this scenario? "Don't fuck with us, or you will play out of position for one game?"
There has to be a more logical explanation than that, or I'd like to see Anselmi's diploma to verify that he didn't make it himself with construction paper and crayons.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
There is nothing in this result that wasn't obvious to those of us who saw TFC in Charleston.
The backline is absolutely horrible. It will take some time to build this team. Results probably won't come until next year.
We are in a worse situation than an expansion team. Lots of either poor or dis-satisfied players. No team consistency. No significant allocation $$$ to build a new squad. It will take time, but do we have the patience? We all suffered through 4 years of Mo.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I dont buy it either, that is just too crazy to even contemplate. Winter's first competitive game and he is being told to play players out of position as a punishment even though it adversely effects his chances of taking something from the game, I just dont think he would accept that. If he did accept then that we have a puppet coach who does not care about results at this point, that is a very dangerous man to have in charge of your team.
Moderator
This is sort of what I was getting at pages ago. Winter has been handed a situation that is worse than nothing. He was saddled with some poor contracts, some poor players, and our best player pissed at the organization.
Even though four years of bullshit has justifiably sapped us of our patience and understanding, Winter deserves some of both right now, or we are just going to end up spinning the coaching carousel once again, and bringing in more new guys with more new visions of their own.
This team needs a consistent leader with a consistent building plan, or we are going to end up with another five year plan, and nothing to show for it.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
How much time do you think he thinks he needs?
The supporters haven't written off the season because there's plenty of season left. This team has "tinkered" for the first quarter or half of every season it's been in the league and making the playoffs has come down to the last game. The truth is, this is MLS, it is possible to tinker for the first half of the season and still have a successful season.
And as for ticket sales, season tickets aren't sold in March or April or May. Sure there may be some empty seats at the beginning of the season but if the team puts a few wins together BMO will fill up.
In this type of league with little value put on the Supporter's Shield and the emphasis being on making the playoffs (whether we like it or not, that is the priority of ownership) the truth is not every game has equal value - losing a few early games doesn't put a team out of contention in this league.
Oh my. So much to comment on:
re: your overall reaction
The timeline goes like this:
- TFC sucks, Mo is fired, new management on board
- New system? yipee!
- Team loses 4-2
- Fucking idiots, they should be playing the old system or a variation thereof, you know, the one that worked so well for us
re: slowly integrating a new system
When exactly would the team have time to practice Winter's 4-3-3 and your "some magical elixir that incorporates the strength of the players we have" suggestion? After training sessions? On every odd numbered Monday in months that have 6 letters or less?
Incidentally, what does this "magical elixir look" like? JDG, pass the ball out of bounds but do it off an opponent. Gargan, you take the throw and get it into the Centre Circle, no not the penalty area, the Centre Circle. Yes, mid-field. DeRo, you take the shot from there. The rest of you guys, stand still.
re: playing a system around the strength of the players he has
I missed the part where Winter had a full roster in the weeks leading up to the first game in order to gauze the "strength" of the players he has
I also missed the part where it was determined that the long term benefit of TFC as an organization adopting a "system-wide-system" was declared a failure. You know, the one in which their Academy will play a similar style and finally have a "brand" of football with interchangeable parts. I guess your long term team building concept had the word "band-aid" in it?
At some point, you have to make a change and change is painful over the short term. No getting around it. We either do the same old same old or try to do it differently. There are no other options.
Last edited by Pookie; 03-21-2011 at 07:29 AM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !