I don't think we can say that he was good enough for the MLS based one performance, and especially one that played a different style than MLS teams do. The entire team was fantastic in that match, and plenty of those players aren't that good.Originally Posted by ExiledRed
Or adaptability. He may not have been up for the kick and chase style we played.The problem was contempt not competence.
Mista might be a better fit with new style Winter is playing.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I think you could say the same about several former players. Vitti comes to mind.
That is simply not true.
Players are co-owned because the bigger club sees that a player has the talent to one day play for them but isn't quite there yet. The smaller clubs do it because they get a better player for cheaper.
Off the top of my head Marco Boriello was co-owned by Milan and Genoa and he score 18 goals in a season while playing with Genoa before returning to Milan.
^^^
From the wiki page on co-ownership:
"An example of co-ownership in practice was when the Brazilian player Adriano was co-owned by Inter and Parma.[3] Inter sold a half share in Adriano to Parma for £4M, who had the use of the player and had to pay his wages. If there had been a dispute over the rightful ownership of the player, it would have been settled by sealed bidding. Adriano had great success at Parma, which meant that Inter later paid £13.5M to buy out Parma's half share."
Guys like Borriello and Adriano are the exceptions. There are literally hundreds of co-ownership deals in Italy and most of those guys end up with careers in C1 or C2 if they are lucky.
It has nothing to do with co-ownership it has to do with the footballers. If they are good enough they will make it if not they won't.
That is true in the end, you are right. I'm just going based on following the lower leagues in Italy.
Based on Stevanovic's career trajectory he was most likely headed for a loan to a Serie C1 or C2 club next season (or Lega Pro or whatever they are calling it now). If he was lucky one of the smaller Serie B teams may have been interested.
In essence his stint in Toronto will be as good as the player wants it to be. If he has the maturity and willingness to work with Winter I think he can do well. I'm hoping that's what happens.
He very well could be there in the next year or 2 but if he is able to elevate himself here he could also find himself back in Serie B or in Serie A.
its post like this that piss me off
De Guzman was talented player playing for coach that played one way kick and chase
De Guzman is a player that helps concect passes and do the work most people do not notice or understand.
Have you ever played d mid? Its hard postion to play even harder when your teammates dont use you or are not on the same page as everyone else.
De Guz help tfc keep position of the ball most of the time he was trying to work the ball up than someone would just boot the ball down the field than he would have to run back and help defend again over and over this becomes tiring an his work is pretty much useless. Yes I disliked some of his reckless tackles but he is a ball winner add in him having to run back and forth for dumb kick and chase style a player make poor decisions at times.
with ths new style of play he is gonna be great and he will help Sturgies get more comfy with the style of play.
ps you do know he was hurt a lot of the season with his knee injury right ...
Ya he looked pretty good out there and he looked like he wanted to be out there unlike players like Mista, Ruiz and Guavara(last half of the season with tfc) to name a few.
Also I though Stevanovic was a winger? someone on this forum said he was a left winger. Does he play both or is he more of a mid
My option on Guavara (half way through Guavara's last season with TFC) I think anyone can say that mind was on any thing but the World Cup. I know World Cup is amazing to make but you never seen other players talk about it everytime they were interviewed after team games. His goals scored went down huge and he never looked like he wanted to play for tfc after the all star break I was happy to see him go but not havin someone to replace him hurt TFC. I think if people really look into that season you would agree with me on some points.
I'm hoping Stevanovic can be our Fredy Montero.
You know as well I do, Italy is not a youth friendly environment and that the whole loaning and co-ownership issue is waaay out of hand (Inter has 17 player's loaned out right now!)
I kind of have to disagree with you. Many Italy's promising young players are often co-owned.
Look at some of the members of the current Italian National team that have been co-owned and-or loaned out:
Loaned in Serie B
Salvatore Sirigu
Christian Maggio
Leonardo Bonucci
Claudio Marchisio
Alberto Aquilani
Antonio Nocerino
Simone Pepe
Alessandro Matri
Hell, even Andrea Pirlo was loaned out early in his career and written off for dead (minimal appearances with Brescia).
If you can conclude anything from the list ... it is this: being a young and loaned-out player in Italy definitely does not mean your career trajectory is towards Serie C1, C2. Of course some do, but there are those who go on to play for the National team ... as you can see.
Last edited by LucaGol; 03-29-2011 at 02:50 PM.
Stevanovic will be a great addition if Winter can keep him in check. Something in me is saying that he feels he's above the team/league (based on his body language vs Portland) and although he may be right, looking down on his team mates will make it hard from him to fit in. I really hope I'm wrong on this though!!
The good thing is that he actually chose TFC over a Russian team so to me that says he wants to be here!
He has all the tools to be a top player in the league and I'm looking forward to seeing this come to pass.....sooner than later!
Some people make degusman out as if he;s some kind of xavi... far from it. My expectations of him are not that of a goal scorer or an assist machine. But that of being a Central Midfielder with a little bit more defensive and conservative mentallity. But the things that everybody says he;s super good at, i think he actually sucks ( which is passing.) Yes he has this weird swager on the field when he is passing which some might see as sklillful but as soon as that pass is longer than 15 feet, it is out of his range. His defence is very limited due to his frame at the end, he was just an extremely expensive clown that MLSE (Due to MO) bought to please the fans... And divert attention.
its post like this that piss me off
De Guzman was talented player playing for coach that played one way kick and chase
De Guzman is a player that helps concect passes and do the work most people do not notice or understand.
Have you ever played d mid? Its hard postion to play even harder when your teammates dont use you or are not on the same page as everyone else.
De Guz help tfc keep position of the ball most of the time he was trying to work the ball up than someone would just boot the ball down the field than he would have to run back and help defend again over and over this becomes tiring an his work is pretty much useless. Yes I disliked some of his reckless tackles but he is a ball winner add in him having to run back and forth for dumb kick and chase style a player make poor decisions at times.
with ths new style of play he is gonna be great and he will help Sturgies get more comfy with the style of play.
ps you do know he was hurt a lot of the season with his knee injury right ...
this JDG thing is the same thing that happened with MO... give him more time it;s a different system, injuries... blah blah blah. Say what you will about Dero and his money loving ass, But the last 2 season have been one of his best in his career, despite having to deal with the same obstacles that JDG had. system is not an excuse... you can see a good skillful player regardless of the system. something JDG isn;t at this point in his career... he came here for the money and because no body else wanted him pretty much... ( Remeber he was shopping around our offer to him for a few month?)
Anyway, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion and only time will tell the truth.
ps: Stevanovic on the other hand is promising.... he just needs to get used to his role on the field and the playing style of the league and he;ll be much better than what we saw of him in the last 45 min.
Last edited by ua-kozak_TFC; 03-29-2011 at 03:12 PM.
Wait... I thought this board was only for debate on DeRo...
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I suspect Winter will make short work of any 'attitude', if such exists, judging by the firm way he has responded to other clubhouse issues (deRo, Cann).
I think the fact that he had just got off a plain from Europe the evening before had a lot to do with his performance. He showed glimpses of what type of player he is, that was for sure.
He seems liked his wants to be here as he did turn down other opportunities overseas to play in the MLS with the Reds. At training he seemed to be a pretty down to earth guy when he signed a photo for me from Saturday's game.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
^^
I agree Stevanovic is going to be good, he just needs to go to a training session
Last edited by Undefeated; 03-30-2011 at 03:16 PM.
That's a bit of a slippery slope.
De Guzman wasn't starting by the time he left Depor (although contract negotiations had a role in that), Mista and Denilson were well seperated from starting in La Liga by the time they showed up in MLS. Let's be fair here.
Stevanovic seems a little petulant and cocky to me. I saw him complaining for not getting balls and getting caught trying to be fancy. I hope his ego will adjust to MLS play. He could be great.
Or hungry and very confident with a demand for the ball and better service. I would rather a guy like that than a guy who is lacking in confidence, like a Jacob Peterson. You also have to remeber he has balkan DNA, so you try to take the good and and manage the bad.
I agree with this.
Dude shows up, promptly chooses #10 as his number and immediately starts complaining about bad passes and not getting the ball.
Gear down big rig! I know that playing in the MLS is not as grand as warming the benches of Serie B in Torino, but you're not exactly a super star either, so pace yourself.
You also have to remeber he has balkan DNA, so you try to take the good and and manage the bad.
hahaha well said. Typically atheletes from the balkans are mercurial...high highs and low lows. But man, sometimes the highs are super high.
haha yes i realize this is open to doping jokes.
I agree with this.
Dude shows up, promptly chooses #10 as his number and immediately starts complaining about bad passes and not getting the ball.
Gear down big rig! I know that playing in the MLS is not as grand as warming the benches of Serie B in Torino, but you're not exactly a super star either, so pace yourself.
DAMN RIGHT he is complaining , I want a player who wants the ball,has confidence and challenging his teammates, to play for TFC.
gear down,yeah that's the right attitude,his teammates should gear up because I want to see TFC playing at Seria B level instead MLS level.
If it was even possible for one brand new player from a foreign league getting his first 45 mins to inspire and change a team's mentality than this might make some sense.
In reality he looked like a prat.
DeRo wants the ball all the time too, doesn't excuse the fact that the first move the guy tried to make was the cheekiest bullshit move and an MLS defender kicked him, took the ball and left him standing there.
Just saying he has arrogance that comes from ignorance.. this league isn't as bad as he may believe.
It was his first 1/2 game. I don't care where you've played and how good you think you are, you don't challenge your brand new teammates. In any team, that attitude needs to be earned.
DAMN RIGHT he is complaining , I want a player who wants the ball,has confidence and challenging his teammates.
I think an overly team-centric approach has lead some people to believe being dispossessed while trying to dribble a defender is an act of great shame. It definitely is not. No worse than the various passes made every game that don't find their intended targets.
It's a needed skill for wide players to be effective and one we've sorely lacked in the past. It just needs to be harnessed and used at the right time.
Let's not assume that because MLS generally lacks quality wide play that something with a little more panache can't be used effectively. As much as we all want to take a piss about MLS being physical, there are leagues where the play is MORE physical out there and the wingers still manage to take on defenders with a fair amount of audacity.
Last edited by ag futbol; 03-30-2011 at 10:01 PM.
Half the passes That everyone says De Guz has fucked up in the time that he has been here, have been him passing into space where the recieving player should be, but instead they stay static and we lose possession. Hopefully with the new system and new blood like martina and Stevanovic who seem to understand the concept of making themselves open and not just waiting for the ball to come to them, we will see the best out of JDG
I gather you never saw him play in Spain (or even with the CMNT, like I have), otherwise you wouldn't make such a post.
I'll be the first to admit that he looked terrible last year, really terrible, but your eyes will be opened when you see how a player like him works with a passing system instead of kick and chase. The team will play much better with him on the field. Much, much better. Remember, he was player of the year at Depor, and only had to leave Spain because he was black-balled for complaining about unpaid wages. A system like Winter's was tailor-made for a player like JDG.
Another factor is that JDG is also as bad at receiving and sending long-balls as he is skilled at the short-passing game. He is limited in that he can only play one system, but he is very good at that system.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 03-31-2011 at 07:47 AM.
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