Next time, could you be not be bothered enough to reply in less than a paragraph?Originally Posted by Pachuco
Lots goes into defining "best players". Unfortunately, some people define that exclusively by goals for. By that definition, DeRo and Jeff Cunningham are the best players a team could hope for.
I defended him and to be honest, I still do. Cann was in a tough spot and thus made a tough decision. It didn't go his way. TFC played hard ball. I don't think it was the wrong play as a principle, I think it was the wrong play for him because he didn't have enough leverage.
As for walking out on your team not being the "right thing to do"...well...so is making promises you don't keep. This team owes Cann and it should make it up to him. If they don't, well Cann may have had to apologize because he had to, but that's probably to save his job and his livelihood not because he wanted to.
Nobody wanted Cann to leave training camp, but instead of backing him into a corner, maybe the team should have dealt with him honourably in the first place. And we're back to the fundamental reason why I don't blame Cann nor condemn him for doing what he did. If this was simply greed, I would agree with most of you, but it wasn't...he was fighting back against an organization that was breaking their promise to him. And for that, I don't feel he owed me an apology. When I saw the video, I felt sorry for the dude because it's obvious he has been beaten and made to beg for his job, something I feel he's earned.
If you guys feel validated by his apology, congrats. I take no pleasure in watching a player I respect humilated by a club bullying him into an apology. Granted, he decided to play the hardball game with them and got burnt...and thus, he brought it upon himself in a way...but none of you guys have offered a solution to his dilemma other than "play out your contract" which seems to be a default rationale around this board and the reason why none of you would make good agents nor business managers.
And congratulate yourselves for taking the winning side. While you are at it, you should probably defend this club for the season ticket price hikes and other instances of them taking advantage of those generating revenue for them. Because standing up to the team is obviously the wrong thing to do.
Last edited by Roogsy; 03-13-2011 at 08:14 PM.
Let me ask you a question...who do YOU think has been the best player for TFC in the past two seasons?
Frei and if you want a close 2nd, I'd give the nod to Attakora for consistent hard work and solid performance.
I guess we should all conceed to your prowess as a business manager because none of us know better. Thanks for showing all us uneducated fools the light.
I am not saying I know all, I am not even saying I would know what to do in Cann's particular situation which was particularly difficult...but doing nothing? Yeah...sounds like a great way to get a better deal for yourself or at the very least getting the team to honour their word. We're gonna have to add that to legal and commerce curriculum.
Last edited by Roogsy; 03-13-2011 at 08:27 PM.
Just to clarify, in your opinion, Frei and Attakora have been TFC's best players the past 2 years? Nobody else has been better?
IMO yes. Solid over the last 2 years and given their age I would go further in saying that they would be assets that would be hard to replace. Both have future potential transfer value
Where are you going with this?
+1. Frei has been our best player day in and day out over the last two seasons. Period.
I understand all that stuff about walking out, had good offers but declined them. It happens in sports... but man that interview was a train wreck. Someone in their communications dept should have said, maybe we keep this one as a written statement from Cann's camp and be done with it.
I would rather watch baby seals being clubbed than that kind of public humiliation for what amounts his part in the ugly business side of the sport. I felt like hugging the dude. Score one for man'ing up. He's got my respect as a human being, never mind a footballer.
Can anyone think of a public flogging like that in their own BUSINESS lives?
Last edited by TorCanSoc; 03-13-2011 at 08:50 PM.
Agreed. Frei has been our best player.
He did the same stuff in the DeRo thread. Don't bother. He's right, you're wrong. No inbetween. He also said we'd make terrible agents in that thread, aswell. You're in good company.I guess we should all conceed to your prowess as a business manager because none of us know better. Thanks for showing all us uneducated fools the light.
Last edited by Brooker; 03-13-2011 at 09:16 PM.
To be precise on what I was saying before. Your argument is that if you don't make the playoffs with a player costing you 350K towards the cap, then you should get rid of the player and trade him in for cheaper options. That was your argument. And that's why it's absurd.
I don't believe you look at Dero subjectively anyways. I believe your hate on for his personality clouds your judgement.
And this is the reason I wanted him to commit to his position about Frei and Attakora being the best players TFC has had in the last 2 seasons, so that he wouldn't go back and revamp his story.
So let's see, the ONLY player on TFC to have even come close to producing individually successful seasons in his position comparatively speaking is DeRo. I've made his stats well-known in his thread so I won't dwell on it. But suffice to say, almost no player in the league has had 2 back to back seasons as successful as DeRo.
Neither Frei, Attakora or to make the argument (since this is his thread) Cann have had statistically successful seasons. In their relative positions, they don't lead nor do they come close to leading in any meaningful stats. Save percentages, blocks, goals against, etc. etc. Despite the mind-blowingly boring, negative soccer we played last season we still didn't lead the league in defensive measures, neither as a unit nor as individuals making their stats look even worse. So in what way exactly has Frei, Attakora or Cann been our "best" players since they couldn't even stand out in their relative positions against other players in the league? What exactly made them our "best" players when looking at them objectively, they were quite possibly considered very average when compared to the rest of the league?
Are we so focused to taking away credit from our truly best player because we don't like him, even though he was the only real positive aspect we've had on this team in 2 years, that we choose to award and give credit to players, who we love because they are ours but in real terms are simply average and other than Frei may in fact struggle to get first-team action on other teams? Really? That's requires a whole new level of ridiculous justification.
lol DeRo is a good player, his actions betrayed the club and the fans. Similar to Canns actions. The diff is that DeRo played it in the media and during games. Tried to be whatever about it, then half assed said it was the wrong move.
No doubt DeRo is the best player on the team and the team hinges on his contributions. Still doesnt mean what he did was right.
And I have no problems with this opinion. My problem is with people who are deluded enough to think Attakora and Cann are top-level players even in MLS but DeRo is expendable on TFC.
Cann should have taken the 160k offered and ran with it. Considering all the comments in this thread, it seems more than fair in terms of his worth in this salary capped team. It's too bad Mo muddied up the waters with his dishonesty. As for Mo's promises, why do I get the feeling this won't be the last "Mo" contract we have problems with?
Hold on now, I didn't claim that as a generic blanket statement for any situation past, present or future. If a team sucks, you don't necessarily rid yourself of the most expensive player (capwise he is at the max, even for DPs). Some expensive players are worth keeping.
But if your team sucks and you have an expensive player who is into his 30's, who disappeared from June through September of last year, has no transfer potential (remember, you earn allocation money for selling players) and who has been nothing but a S.O.B, you look to move this player and attempt to "rebuild" your roster using the cap flexibility provided by the move.
In all sports, this happens with older players and big contracts. He's a good player, some might even say great. But clearly, there is a tipping point with him and whether that factor is age, salary, baggage or a combination thereof, to think of him as a Red for life is a completely silly way to manage a team considering those circumstances.
Back to "stats" as the only measure of a player's worth, eh?
Because statisitically speaking, Jeff Cunningham would be comparable to DeRosario and with his $150k salary at Columbus, a less expensive cap option. Do stats guide the decision?
Statisically speaking, Maurice Edu had just 5 goals in 38 appearances for TFC. Clearly, he had value beyond stats and has been our only successful transfer, earning the club allocation money in the process.
If you want to build the team around an aging player based on his past statistics go right ahead. You asked for my opinion on the players.
As for Frei, I don't know how you can downgrade his accomplishments based on his stats. Maybe if DeRo back tracked a little his stats would show a little better...?
IMO, Attakora demonstrates the work ethic needed to be successful as a team and as a player. His on field performance has been consistent, his youth represents potential in both this league and potentially in others. You are expecting a 20-21 year old player to lead the league in stats at his position? Come on.
Why are you holding him to a standard that wouldn't even apply to Edu?
Defend Cann's move all you want. That's your choice.
But please don't say that siding with the club on the Cann situation is comprable to siding with the club on ticket pricing.
You always wax on and on and on and on poetic about not confusing the issues and going off topic and here you are doing it yourself to save face.
Cann made a mistake. He's admitted as much. You defend his move.
It just shows that debating with you is absolutely useless because you have no intention of being swayed or influenced by other peoples opinions.
You have yours, and you're right..all the time. Even when a guy like Cann himself admitted that he was wrong.
And then you bring up ticket pricing and siding with the club? LOL
People said DeRo is expendable because of what he did. Not because of his talent. Is that really that hard to understand?
Some people don't want selfish players on the team they support. Others are okay with it.
Nobody ever said DeRo sucks. On the contrary, most of the reaction was:
"He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"
The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.
The only difference is that Cann apologized for putting himself before the club.
DeRo never has.
Voodoo, I agree with your position regarding players that put themselves before the club, regardless of their level of talent.
However, if you acknowledged Cann's apology, why won't you acknowledge DeRo's apology after the cheque signing incident?
Is it because you think DeRo should have apologized again for going to trial in Scotland?
We will never know what really transpired behind the scenes regarding the Celtic debacle but given the way that situation unfolded, we know the club was willing to give DeRo permission and everything else was a result of miscommunication on the part of interim management, DeRo's agent, or both. I don't think DeRo owes anyone an apology for wanting to trial for a storied European club.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 03-14-2011 at 08:10 AM.
I'll give you Frei, but Attakora over De Rosario? You've got to be kidding.
Dero's been an allstar for us the passed two years yet our defense remained porous and unable to hold leads. I fear for this team now that Frei, Attakora and Cann will be asked to play the ball out of the back this year. The ball will seem like a grenade back there.
Hopefully someone one day will be able to quantify how exactly a player who takes care of himself or as some put it around here "puts himself before the club" (like somehow most players don't...but whatever) is an indication of how much he contributes to the club. Are you telling me that if DeRo was a more humble person TFC would have won more games last year?
Actually in my opinion, the issues are connected. I find it hypocritical that fans believe they can demand and complain about the way the team runs and what the team demands from us like somehow it's ours to tell them what to do but players have no right to demand that their interests be taken care of as well. I honestly believe that if players should suck it up and take it from the team, then so should the fans. This is not about saving face, I think I am being fairly consistent.
Last edited by Roogsy; 03-14-2011 at 09:05 AM.
Yeah...I specifically asked who were our best to players these past 2 seasons. If your determination of who our best players have been includes some adivination of how well they will perform in the future, well, who am I to tell you how to generate your own opinion of players right? I mean, future performance is an obvious variable to consider when judging a player's past performance.
No...I'm telling you that (to some people) it doesn't matter how many games a team wins when it comes to humility or a lack thereof.
I'll never say that DeRo is a bad player. He's a great player. I just don't like the way he behaved.
It's a personal opinion. It was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
I was growing tired of DeRo before the cheque signing incident. The people around me in our section can attest to that.
Then he pulled the cheque signing and I was done. Especially without a proper apology.
You're in the business (as far as I can tell) of making players (and other people) money. That's why your position as far as proper compensation for players doesn't bug me that much. It's your job. It's what you believe.
What bugs me are the altruistic explanations for all of this shit.
The "I have to put food on the table and put my family first" bullshit.
Everybody has to do that. Everybody faces these worries.
Not everybody handles them the same way.
I lost respect for DeRo and Cann for the way they tried to handle it.
I know it may be over the top but imagine a kid who adores DeRo watching that game last season. What does his mom or dad say when he asks why DeRo was writing in the air?
That's what bugs me. It bugs me enough that I don't care if keeping him (or Cann) makes are team better, talent wise. I see it as a poison and a situation that no good can come from. Their actions have nothing to do with the proper concept of "team".
That's all.
If you or anyone else want to argue the value of player "x" based on a whole bunch of statistics..that's fine. Have at it. That's just not the main issue for me.
Fair enough.
Yes. The argument that DeRo's self-centred actions, attitude, distractions and questionable leadership is somehow unrelated to club performance is pure bollocks.
Look at it this way - you certainly wouldn't pull all that crap with the end goal of HELPING the club, would you? It's counter-intuitive.
I see if you are feeling like the arugment isn't going your way, you opt to change it?Yeah...I specifically asked who were our best to players these past 2 seasons. If your determination of who our best players have been includes some adivination of how well they will perform in the future, well, who am I to tell you how to generate your own opinion of players right? I mean, future performance is an obvious variable to consider when judging a player's past performance.
You made a wonderful attempt at using stats, then somehow backed off of that with the Cunningham reference because, presumably, stats don't tell the whole picture there. You judge Attakora based on stats yet make no comment on the fact that Edu didn't lead in any category either.
Frei and Attakora have been our 2 most consistent, hardworking, team players over the last 2 years. They haven't led in any stats category but they haven't brought baggage that has impacted team performance (IMO) either. Making them, as a sum of their parts, collectively better than any player we've had on the roster in the last 2 seasons.
Future potential? Separate argument but yeah, both are valuable to the franchise and would be hard to replace in terms of everything they bring to your team.
Honestly..it's because I can't believe that a person who is willing to sign an imaginary cheque and then back up his behaviour verbally can be honest when apologizing.
He didn't seem all that upset about what he had done and I'm willing to bet that if you ask him in confidence today, he'd say he still feels the same way.
It's just my opinion but it's the way I see it.
Um really? This was my question:
How exactly did I change it? I specifically asked about the past 2 seasons and your opinion of who the best player(s) was. You gave me two. Frei and Attakora and then in one of your latest posts pretty much point to the fact that it's because they produce well for their age. Except...that wasn't the question. The question was pretty straight forward, who was our best player the past two seasons? And then you give me this gem:
Now THAT is changing the argument.If you want to build the team around an aging player based on his past statistics go right ahead.
You mean players that will give you average stats? Somehow I don't think they're all that hard to replace. Most would assume that top scorers and perennial all-stars are harder to replace.Future potential? Separate argument but yeah, both are valuable to the franchise and would be hard to replace in terms of everything they bring to your team.
Last edited by Roogsy; 03-14-2011 at 09:25 AM.
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