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  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Actually in my opinion, the issues are connected. I find it hypocritical that fans believe they can demand and complain about the way the team runs and what the team demands from us like somehow it's ours to tell them what to do but players have no right to demand that their interests be taken care of as well. I honestly believe that if players should suck it up and take it from the team, then so should the fans. This is not about saving face, I think I am being fairly consistent.
    Yeah well, I've never complained about the treatment of the fans by the club...other than the product on the field.

    That has always been the only thing that I expect from the club. Put out a good product on the field.

    In that sense I guess the two issues are related...in that I believe that Cann and DeRo's actions are counter productive in terms of quality of the team.

    Other than that...I don't give a shit what the club does. Ticket prices and supporter treatment are issues easily judged by me.

    When I think they're out of line, I'll leave.

    Product on the field is another matter.

  2. #842
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    @ two posts above^^ I think what you really want to hear is that "All roads lead to DeRo". By the comments on this board the answer to that is no.

    Inclusive of all stats and intangibles he has not been our best player over the past two years. Let it go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    Yeah well, I've never complained about the treatment of the fans by the club...other than the product on the field.

    That has always been the only thing that I expect from the club. Put out a good product on the field.

    In that sense I guess the two issues are related...in that I believe that Cann and DeRo's actions are counter productive in terms of quality of the team.

    Other than that...I don't give a shit what the club does. Ticket prices and supporter treatment are issues easily judged by me.

    When I think they're out of line, I'll leave.

    Product on the field is another matter.
    Well from that perspective I suppose it's another reason to understand your position. Without meaning to offend, I simply find it to be a deluded position to take. Cann and DeRo's actions are not unique nor are they the only self-interested members of this team. You are judging them based on the fact that they have been forced into these moves by dishonest managers. You can rest assured that given similar circumstances, a majority of the players on this team would probably pull similar moves and decisions.

    If your interest is solely on the product on the pitch, then I can't see why you don't understand that a much more cold-hearted approach should be taken. Your desire to have players that meet some elevated standard of conduct is unreasonable. While Whoopee made have a point that at times there are players willing to sacrifice to a certain extent, they are by far in the extreme minority, in any sport and you will most definitely not find them at TFC where believe me, players are already suspicious of management given what has transpired these past 4 seasons and will now not give TFC the benefit of the doubt.

    I suppose I lost my rose-coloured glasses years ago when I started seeing the inside of the sports industry. But frankly, I can't believe any player would meet your standard given the test and you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Today it's Cann, yesterday it was DeRo, tomorrow it will most definitely be another player. In the meantime, while you judge players to an unreasonable standard, if things were run your way, you also unecessarily handicap the team by ridding usable players and replacing them with lovely chaps who almost guaranteed won't have the chops to replace the players you'd like to see leave. You basically cut off your nose to spite your face. Thankfully as a fan, you don't affect the process...much.

  4. #844
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    It's over with.

    /thread and stop wasting your time gents. You all have your own opinions.

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    You're welcome to stop reading the thread Brandon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Frei and if you want a close 2nd, I'd give the nod to Attakora for consistent hard work and solid performance.
    while frei may have been our best player last season, i remember him having some serious issues getting off of his line and controlling the box the year before.

    over the last two years, dero has easily been our best player; frei would be second and no one else would even rate.

    whether you like him or not is a completely separate scenario to how good of a footballer dero is.

    oh yeah...and i'm super glad with the way this whole cann scenario has played out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    You're welcome to stop reading the thread Brandon.
    As much as I appreciate your advice Roogs, I'd say it would probably help your day-to-day efficiency a HELL of a lot more than mine if you stopped reading them as well.

    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    Honestly..it's because I can't believe that a person who is willing to sign an imaginary cheque and then back up his behaviour verbally can be honest when apologizing.

    He didn't seem all that upset about what he had done and I'm willing to bet that if you ask him in confidence today, he'd say he still feels the same way.

    It's just my opinion but it's the way I see it.
    But a guy who walks away from his team and stops playing can be honest when apologizing? Very hypocritical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BFin View Post
    As much as I appreciate your advice Roogs, I'd say it would probably help your day-to-day efficiency a HELL of a lot more than mine if you stopped reading them as well.

    Cheers.

    Al-Mo has seen my setup...I'm pretty efficient already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Well from that perspective I suppose it's another reason to understand your position. Without meaning to offend, I simply find it to be a deluded position to take. Cann and DeRo's actions are not unique nor are they the only self-interested members of this team. You are judging them based on the fact that they have been forced into these moves by dishonest managers. You can rest assured that given similar circumstances, a majority of the players on this team would probably pull similar moves and decisions.

    If your interest is solely on the product on the pitch, then I can't see why you don't understand that a much more cold-hearted approach should be taken. Your desire to have players that meet some elevated standard of conduct is unreasonable. While Whoopee made have a point that at times there are players willing to sacrifice to a certain extent, they are by far in the extreme minority, in any sport and you will most definitely not find them at TFC where believe me, players are already suspicious of management given what has transpired these past 4 seasons and will now not give TFC the benefit of the doubt.

    I suppose I lost my rose-coloured glasses years ago when I started seeing the inside of the sports industry. But frankly, I can't believe any player would meet your standard given the test and you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Today it's Cann, yesterday it was DeRo, tomorrow it will most definitely be another player. In the meantime, while you judge players to an unreasonable standard, if things were run your way, you also unecessarily handicap the team by ridding usable players and replacing them with lovely chaps who almost guaranteed won't have the chops to replace the players you'd like to see leave. You basically cut off your nose to spite your face. Thankfully as a fan, you don't affect the process...much.
    I agree that the Cann and DeRo situations are likely not the only ones in within the squad where players feel like them.

    I don't doubt that there are some disgruntled players that may have been promised shit by a snake of a manger in the past.

    I just don't get how displaying their displeasure in that manner helps the situation.

    What has it gotten them, other than the ire of many supporters?

    Not to mention that there is a new management/coaching system at the helm?

    As for your last comment..I know it was supposed to be a (poorly) veiled jab at me but that's okay.

    I know that as a fan I have ZERO affect on the process. I'm happy with that.

    Unfortunately you fail to realize that as a person who is in the business of making money for players you've lost all ability to be objective and you're no longer a fan of this team but rather a fan of the individuals within the team.

    Arguing with you has become the equivalent (in my mind) of arguing with a players agent or, on the other end of the spectrum, Tom Anselmi.

    Neither of whom I would go to for an honest opinion on the state of this team.

    Unfortunately it seems that you DO have an effect on the process.

  11. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pachuco View Post
    But a guy who walks away from his team and stops playing can be honest when apologizing? Very hypocritical.
    Not really. It's more a case of a guy who actually seems apologetic when apologizing gets the benefit of the doubt.

    It doesn't change the fact that I've lost respect for Cann.

    Where I once would have thought that he might make a decent captain, I've since come to realize that I was very wrong and that there is no way it should even be considered.

    DeRo on the other hand does not seem (and never did) to be truly sorry for how he behaved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    People said DeRo is expendable because of what he did. Not because of his talent. Is that really that hard to understand?

    Some people don't want selfish players on the team they support. Others are okay with it.

    Nobody ever said DeRo sucks. On the contrary, most of the reaction was:

    "He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

    The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.

    The only difference is that Cann apologized for putting himself before the club.

    DeRo never has.
    Au contraire. I think you should speak for yourself here. There has been nothing more frustrating then reading people's comments about how overrated Cann is or that he isn't that good anyways. All this happened when Cann walked off the team. Before that Cann could do no wrong in many people's eyes. The funniest comment of all which I've been laughing at for days was when someone said "Well he sucked for Canada anyway". BAHAHAHA, that was a big joke. This person couldn't even make up the fact he's not that good for TFC so they go onto the Canada thing. As if it's revelant to Cann's play with TFC.

    The point is, there is a shit load of people who's judgement becomes blinded and clouded because of their personal hate for a player. Nothing to do with performance, everything to do with a personality clash. I'll give you credit where credit is due and you have always been consistent with your message around Dero. Don't like his attitude, but atleast you get that he's a pretty darn good player for TFC.

    You know, I'm just happy as hell that Winter doesn't make things personal as others do around here. He's taken both players back, he knows how important they are to the team, and he'll probably make them key figures in this year's lineup. If it were up to some people we'd have a team of 11 Danny Dichios. A rather average striker who won the love of the fans through his personality as opposed to anything else. Every team may need a Danny Dichio, but every team needs a De Rosario as well.

  13. #853
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    I'm done with these debates. LOL

    I get where Roogsy is come from, while I come from the other side (team side) given my past and current situation.

    At the end of the day it cuts both ways. The failure of TFC, specifically Mo, from making it a good working environment has led to these actions. But at the same time it doesn't absolve the actions of particularly players. The one disadvantage the players have is that the public, 3 out of 4 times, will side with the club. So the actions of the players will be more heavily scrutinized and they should be aware of it. Some know this others don't. Some are humble, others aren't.

    If you want to break down into a real world example, it's like when you're at work and you're asked if you can stay at work a little longer to get something done, like a special project.

    If your workplace is a good one, you'll tell your boss, hey no problem. Some employees can sense that things are tight and will offer to stay longer without the boss having to ask. Some employees, even in a good environment, will complain and demand that they be compensated for their time.

    Now imagine a bad work environment. Some will just screw you, I'm not staying. Some will say I'll stay if I get paid. Some will stay but know that when they get the opportunity they'll leave for another job. And others will just do it because its their job.

    The funny thing is that over the years people have these cynical views of athletes (and team owners). But like anything else all you always hear about are the 5% who complain and whine (on both sides) as opposed to the rest of the people who go out and just do their job, enjoy what they do, and try to win as often as they can. And shockingly there are still a lot of guys who put the collective effort of the team ahead of themselves. I mean why take cortisone shots when you can just shut yourself down?

    So much like people say well, athletes complained before, will continue to complain, along the way another star will come along and just do his job.

    Surely this can't be the peak for TFC? I would hope not.

    Hopefully Winter and Mariner create a better working environment and as a result, hopefully the complaints from the players will stop.

  14. #854
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    ^ Middle ground.

    I like it.

    Either way...the season starts in 5 days! All this will hopefully be behind us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    As for your last comment..I know it was supposed to be a (poorly) veiled jab at me but that's okay.

    Not a jab. I recognize that as fans we all have little impact on what happens. However, our collective voices have a greater impact. So we both do and do not have an impact. That is all I was getting at. No jab intended.

    As for my impact...while I am involved in certain aspects with all sorts of players in various sports, including some on TFC, I assure you my impact is after the fact. Players do not approach me for advice pre-contract talks. They come to me after the fact post-contract to deal with the effects of what they have signed. So how much impact I can have is surely quite minimal as I have never dispensed advice to players on how to deal with any team they are negotiating with. All my comments on this board are from the perspective of a fan, with the added value of the experience I bring.
    Last edited by Roogsy; 03-14-2011 at 10:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pachuco View Post
    Au contraire. I think you should speak for yourself here.
    hahaha...I thought that was exactly what I did:

    "He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

    The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.
    I agree...a players talent level doesn't drop the minute he acts like a fool.

    I'm not interested in debating whether or not they're good players. I'm arguing that thieir behaviour might indicate that they're bad TEAM players.

  17. #857
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    Agreed, the talent level remains the same but the value a player adds to his club is reduced the minute he starts to douche it up.

    Case study - Miami Heat. On paper they look unbeatable, however because of their personalities and attitude the reality is a little different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    hahaha...I thought that was exactly what I did:



    I agree...a players talent level doesn't drop the minute he acts like a fool.

    I'm not interested in debating whether or not they're good players. I'm arguing that thieir behaviour might indicate that they're bad TEAM players.
    Definately not what you did...

    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    People said DeRo is expendable because of what he did. Not because of his talent. Is that really that hard to understand?

    Some people don't want selfish players on the team they support. Others are okay with it.

    Nobody ever said DeRo sucks. On the contrary, most of the reaction was:

    "He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

    The exact same reaction I had when Cann pulled his shit and the same reaction I'd have if Nana did it.

    The only difference is that Cann apologized for putting himself before the club.

    DeRo never has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pachuco View Post
    Definately not what you did...
    Dude...why are you so nitpicky?

    Did I say ALL people. I said people...because that's what people said.

    I don't remember anyone saying that based on talent DeRo sucks.

    I'm sorry if it offended you that you thought I was speaking for everyone, but I wasn't.

    It seems you're more frustrated with people who said Cann was shit as a player after he walked out on the team when they were probably people who thought he was great before hand.

    I wasn't one of those people because I think both Cann and DeRo are good players...just not high on my list of team oriented players.

    What you bolded indicates what exactly?

    "He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

    Sorry but that's precisely how MOST people reacted.

    Not all but most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    Dude...why are you so nitpicky?

    Did I say ALL people. I said people...because that's what people said.

    I don't remember anyone saying that based on talent DeRo sucks.

    I'm sorry if it offended you that you thought I was speaking for everyone, but I wasn't.

    It seems you're more frustrated with people who said Cann was shit as a player after he walked out on the team when they were probably people who thought he was great before hand.

    I wasn't one of those people because I think both Cann and DeRo are good players...just not high on my list of team oriented players.

    What you bolded indicates what exactly?

    "He's good/great but fuck him if he's going to behave like that"

    Sorry but that's precisely how MOST people reacted.

    Not all but most.
    You are correct, frustrated at people's clouded judgement because of their personal hate for something a player did or said. Like I said though, I believe you have been pretty consistent with your message and I was just using your post to make my point

    Too often in Toronto sports we run a good player out of town because of some personal vendetta. Something they did or said ticked us off and therefore people make it a mission to rack up the evidence against the player to justify his departure. I mean, it's gotten to the point that someone suggested (as recent as 2 days ago) all Dero can do is take penalties.

    In Toronto though, we much prefer to make a hero out of Tie Domi and Danny Dichio while players like that could never lead us to anything significant.

    Guevara and Dero would lead a team to the playoffs any day before Danny Dichio and Carl Robinson. Unfortunately because of their personality, Guevara and Dero will never be heros in Toronto. While Dichio and Robinson would've been knighted by now if it was up to TFC fans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pachuco View Post
    You are correct, frustrated at people's clouded judgement because of their personal hate for something a player did or said. Like I said though, I believe you have been pretty consistent with your message and I was just using your post to make my point

    Too often in Toronto sports we run a good player out of town because of some personal vendetta. Something they did or said ticked us off and therefore people make it a mission to rack up the evidence against the player to justify his departure. I mean, it's gotten to the point that someone suggested (as recent as 2 days ago) all Dero can do is take penalties.

    In Toronto though, we much prefer to make a hero out of Tie Domi and Danny Dichio while players like that could never lead us to anything significant.


    Guevara and Dero would lead a team to the playoffs any day before Danny Dichio and Carl Robinson. Unfortunately because of their personality, Guevara and Dero will never be heros in Toronto. While Dichio and Robinson would've been knighted by now if it was up to TFC fans.
    I'm not a Leaf fan at all, and really other than TFC and some interest in the Jays, I'm not a huge Toronto sports fan. However, I am a Torontonian.

    So please tell me a player that has been run out of Toronto over the last 30 years who has gone on to win anything of significance after he has been "run out of town"?

    The only guy I can come up with is Larry Murphy and even then while he was a solid player on the Red Wings, he was mainly a depth guy.

    Vince Carter? No. Chris Bosh? We'll see. Robbie Alomar? No. Mats Sundin? No. etc, etc

    Torontonians, like any sports fan in any city across North America and I'd even venture the world, prefer guys who do their job and don't complain about it. Fans will always revere the guys who compare most to them, the working class hero. The guy who goes to factory, punches the clock, does his job well, and punches out.

    Go through the history of any sporting club/team be it in hockey, basketball, NFL football, football and every team's sporting heroes are the same. People don't revere guys like Terrell Owens, Brett Favre, Alexei Yashin, Manny Ramirez in the way they revere guys like Cal Ripken, Barry Sanders, Steve Yzerman, Roy Halladay, etc.

    For example, Cristiano Ronaldo might be the most talented player to ever play with Manchester United but he definitely isn't the most loved ever at the club. Or even Wayne Rooney for that matter.

    So to say this is a Toronto thing isn't true. Hell, I even give their hockey fans the benefit of the doubt on that one.

  22. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopee View Post

    ...

    For example, Cristiano Ronaldo might be the most talented player to ever play with Manchester United but he definitely isn't the most loved ever at the club. Or even Wayne Rooney for that matter.

    So to say this is a Toronto thing isn't true. Hell, I even give their hockey fans the benefit of the doubt on that one.


    Did hell just freeze over???

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    Well, they really haven't had any real stars to cheer for in decades. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopee View Post
    Well, they really haven't had any real stars to cheer for in decades. LOL
    Well there was that one gu....nvm no one

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    Game on the weekend, I think we can all unite around that. I'm going to declare a personal injunction on DeRo posts. My opinion of whether he should be traded aside, as long as he wears a Red kit, I will be pulling for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopee View Post
    I'm done with these debates. LOL

    I get where Roogsy is come from, while I come from the other side (team side) given my past and current situation.

    At the end of the day it cuts both ways. The failure of TFC, specifically Mo, from making it a good working environment has led to these actions. But at the same time it doesn't absolve the actions of particularly players. The one disadvantage the players have is that the public, 3 out of 4 times, will side with the club. So the actions of the players will be more heavily scrutinized and they should be aware of it. Some know this others don't. Some are humble, others aren't.

    If you want to break down into a real world example, it's like when you're at work and you're asked if you can stay at work a little longer to get something done, like a special project.

    If your workplace is a good one, you'll tell your boss, hey no problem. Some employees can sense that things are tight and will offer to stay longer without the boss having to ask. Some employees, even in a good environment, will complain and demand that they be compensated for their time.

    Now imagine a bad work environment. Some will just screw you, I'm not staying. Some will say I'll stay if I get paid. Some will stay but know that when they get the opportunity they'll leave for another job. And others will just do it because its their job.

    The funny thing is that over the years people have these cynical views of athletes (and team owners). But like anything else all you always hear about are the 5% who complain and whine (on both sides) as opposed to the rest of the people who go out and just do their job, enjoy what they do, and try to win as often as they can. And shockingly there are still a lot of guys who put the collective effort of the team ahead of themselves. I mean why take cortisone shots when you can just shut yourself down?

    So much like people say well, athletes complained before, will continue to complain, along the way another star will come along and just do his job.

    Surely this can't be the peak for TFC? I would hope not.

    Hopefully Winter and Mariner create a better working environment and as a result, hopefully the complaints from the players will stop.
    Well said, Vic.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

 

 

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