Official - Dero on trial with CELTIC

[Shakes McQueen]

I firmly believe that contracts are momentary agreements that are undone with new contracts. You seem to be under the impression that the only time to renegotiate is at the end of a contract's term and that is simply not the reality of the situation. We all take advantage of "new" contracts in some way, shape or form.

Not true, and I've expanded on this before. There are a couple of primary points at which a contract will be re-negotiated or extended. I really, really don't want to type it all out again.

Let me give you an example. If you have a mortgage, you can book a 5 year mortgage today at 3.50%. However, if you booked that same mortgage 3 years ago you might have booked it at 5%. That's a 150bps difference. You might still have 2 years to go and with projected interest rates rising, you'd like to take advantage of current interest rates so that you don't book it at the same 5% rate in 2 years or perhaps higher. So what are the options available to you?

Well...you can renegotiate. The bank is fully within their rights to tell you that you have to finish out your contract and renew it at maturity. But instead they make renegotiation available in the form of a "blend and extend" meaning you can average your current rate with another 5 year rate, making your average rate for the next 5 years probably closer to 4.25%, much better than the 5% you are getting now and better than whatever rate you might get in 2 years within the environment of a rising interest rate environment. It's just good business for everyone. You benefit from better rates and the bank retains you as a client.

But unlike the bank, who wants to keep you as a client for several decades, we are talking about a player who is in his 30's, entering the period where football players go into decline, and looking for his third raise in four years (living expenses and taxes aside, as his cap hit is what matters to the team - let's not have that argument again). It makes sense to pay him more money, for what will undoubtedly be diminishing returns by the time his remaining two years are up?

Add that to the widely and accurately reported fact, and it is a fact even if you have not certified it yourself, that DeRo was promised higher wages which is the primary reason why he made the move to TFC as opposed to finishing out his contract in Houston, and you have a situation where a player expected higher payment, is fully able to attempt to legally leverage his employer into a higher wage and therefore decides to do so.

And as I've stated numerous times in the past, if that was what happened, then it behooved DeRo to refuse signing an unpalatable extension with TFC, and say "we will talk when my current deal is up". But DeRo didn't do that - he opted to sign the contract, and may or may not have bought into promises from Mo Johnston about looking at his contract in the future (despite signing a deal with two team option years, I feel the need to continue mentioning).

If you push for a move, and then the team you're pushing for pulls a bait and switch, then you don't sign a four year extension with them!

Objecting to that over some misplaced sense of honour in contracts is naive. Contracts are not written in stone, especially not in the sports world and yet you want this one particular contract to be enforced until it's very end.

I don't believe in the honour of contracts - I believe that contracts should be worth the paper they are written on, unlike European football.

Now you can certainly dislike the way DeRo has gone about his business. I would be more understanding of that than I am of this weird adherence to the schedule of a contract. Especially one that has it's guaranteed years expired.

Again, it has nothing to do with adherence to a contractual schedule. I don't approve of how DeRo has gone about his business. Period. I think the way he has gone about this, has been detrimental to the team, and says a lot about where his priorities lie. That's all.

- Scott

[TFCRegina]

Not true, and I've expanded on this before. There are a couple of primary points at which a contract will be re-negotiated or extended. I really, really don't want to type it all out again.



But unlike the bank, who wants to keep you as a client for several decades, we are talking about a player who is in his 30's, entering the period where football players go into decline, and looking for his third raise in four years (living expenses and taxes aside, as his cap hit is what matters to the team - let's not have that argument again). It makes sense to pay him more money, for what will undoubtedly be diminishing returns by the time his remaining two years are up?



And as I've stated numerous times in the past, if that was what happened, then it behooved DeRo to refuse signing an unpalatable extension with TFC, and say "we will talk when my current deal is up". But DeRo didn't do that - he opted to sign the contract, and may or may not have bought into promises from Mo Johnston about looking at his contract in the future (despite signing a deal with two team option years, I feel the need to continue mentioning).

If you push for a move, and then the team you're pushing for pulls a bait and switch, then you don't sign a four year extension with them!



I don't believe in the honour of contracts - I believe that contracts should be worth the paper they are written on, unlike European football.



Again, it has nothing to do with adherence to a contractual schedule. I don't approve of how DeRo has gone about his business. Period. I think the way he has gone about this, has been detrimental to the team, and says a lot about where his priorities lie. That's all.

- Scott

So what? Unless you work for MLSE or Teachers' who cares? If you care about this club, and aren't in favour of getting rid of De Ro, a DP contract makes more sense. You're not here to protect a profit margin. He hits the cap less if he's a DP.

Also, you can front load the contract and pay him less over time if you're concerned about his productivity. There will reach a point where he retires. It's just common sense...

As for contracts being worth the money they're written on, technically they're worth that in Europe, moreso than MLS, where you have to buy out contracts through transfer fees.

Non-starter here for me Shakes.

[Waggy]

That's the part that is the REAL headscratcher for me in all this and I have said it before.

Unless someone's argument is that we should get rid of DeRo OUTRIGHT, PERIOD....then making him a DP actually makes more financial sense for everyone than it does to keep him at the maximum non-DP salary.

From a financial point of view, it's a no-brainer. I think DeRo and his agent know this which is why they are demanding DP-level salary.

The real choice here for TFC is whether they want to keep him. If they do, then it makes more sense to make him DP than the other way around. Unless of course their plan is to fill all available DP slots with other players. I don't think we have the room for that do we?

With all that considered, DeRo as a DP makes sense for the team, benefits DeRo and it removes this drama from before us. It seems so straight up to me I don't understand why people are opposed to it. Is it to cut off your nose to spite your face?

Now, if they're trying to trade for DeRo (which is a very real possibility) or sell him to Europe (I am not as sure about this one) then it may be why they would string him along. But then you can understand his bitterness (not to mention the whole argument of "loyalty" goes right out the window, not that I ever believed TFC was loyal to anyone.)

If making DeRo a DP is what frees up room to lock up Nana...would people still object? Because that is basically what it boils down to.

You don't consider a teams 'best player' being boo'd at home to be drama? Your opinions aside, you do realize that at LEAST 50% of TFC fans are fairly strongly against Dero here (as seen by polling even before the crap hit the fan with Celtic), I don't see them going "forgive and forget". With the new hires I intend to lift my personal anti mlse boycott and go back to games this year. I will be booing Dero when hes be back in BMO. For us or the visitors. I don't think I'll be alone

[Shakes McQueen]

So what? Unless you work for MLSE or Teachers' who cares? If you care about this club, and aren't in favour of getting rid of De Ro, a DP contract makes more sense. You're not here to protect a profit margin. He hits the cap less if he's a DP.

But the minute you use up a DP slot on him, you have to ask if that designation could be better spent on another player, not just what his cap hit is. Especially when you've already got him locked up for two more years anyway. Do you re-sign him to more money and a DP slot now, or do you take your chances that he will probably be in decline in two years?

- Scott

[TFCRegina]

But the minute you use up a DP slot on him, you have to ask if that designation could be better spent on another player, not just what his cap hit is. Especially when you've already got him locked up for two more years anyway. Do you re-sign him to more money and a DP slot now, or do you take your chances that he will probably be in decline in two years?

- Scott

And my answer to that Shakes, is do we really have the cap space to afford another major hit on the cap. You either dump De Ro or dump part of his cap hit for two years.

I'd absolutely sign De Ro on a DP spot now, pay him a sliding scale wage.

Because if he's a DP in the next two years, his cap hit is 325k for the next two years (possibly less as the DP cap hits have been falling with time). If he's not a DP but still under contract with us, his hit on our expenditures is 400k in both years.

Either way, we have De Ro for 2 years.

And Roogsy, didn't the new CBA ensure that veteran players like De Ro have guaranteed contracts all the way through now?

[Roogsy]

Not true, and I've expanded on this before. There are a couple of primary points at which a contract will be re-negotiated or extended. I really, really don't want to type it all out again.

But unlike the bank, who wants to keep you as a client for several decades, we are talking about a player who is in his 30's, entering the period where football players go into decline, and looking for his third raise in four years (living expenses and taxes aside, as his cap hit is what matters to the team - let's not have that argument again). It makes sense to pay him more money, for what will undoubtedly be diminishing returns by the time his remaining two years are up?

There are always mitigaing factors. And each institution (the bank, TFC) has to measure these factors and decide accordingly. Of course the bank wants to keep you as a client which is why they make the deal. TFC has to look at their player and judge whether keeping an unhappy DeRo around at a cheap price is better for the team than renegotiating a suitable deal for both sides. The pros and cons have to be taken into account of course but he fact remains that the team CAN do it whereas you seem to be seeing the team should not be doing it period. If factors like DeRo's age are such a concern, then even his 440k salary is too much and the real decision here is whether to release him outright.

And as I've stated numerous times in the past, if that was what happened, then it behooved DeRo to refuse signing an unpalatable extension with TFC, and say "we will talk when my current deal is up". But DeRo didn't do that - he opted to sign the contract, and may or may not have bought into promises from Mo Johnston about looking at his contract in the future (despite signing a deal with two team option years, I feel the need to continue mentioning).

If you push for a move, and then the team you're pushing for pulls a bait and switch, then you don't sign a four year extension with them!

The factor you are not considering here is that DeRo did not have a choice but to sign the contract put in front of him. The announcement about Houston's release to TFC had been made and considering the restrictive nature of MLS on it's player movements surely you can understand that either DeRo played for TFC under the contracts they dictated or he had to go to another league. In essence, he was strong-armed into this contract. Did he have a choice? I never said he didn't, if you can call it a choice. He certainly could have decided to play hardball with Mo. He could have retired. He could have gone to Europe. Were those really viable choices? The team was also playing hardball with him and the pressure to get things over with (do you not remember the threads at that time?) was immense from all sides, including the league. Yes, he gave in and has regretted it ever since. Your position is that now he has to live with it. No he doesn't. He has played his two guaranteed years. He is in his option years. He is playing the game the way TFC played it with him and we blame him for that? How about blaming TFC for creating this situation in the first place?

I don't believe in the honour of contracts - I believe that contracts should be worth the paper they are written on, unlike European football.

What should happen and what does happen are two different things. DeRo works in a world where this happens. Asking him to abide by standards that others don't have to live by is unfair to him. You guys put up examples like Gargan and Nana as somehow being exemplary fulfillers of contracts. Well, the fact of the matter is that they have no leverage and thus aren't foolish enough to play hardball with the team. Star players always have that advantage over role players on teams.

Again, it has nothing to do with adherence to a contractual schedule. I don't approve of how DeRo has gone about his business. Period. I think the way he has gone about this, has been detrimental to the team, and says a lot about where his priorities lie. That's all.

I think this has more to do with the idealistic way we view athletes than whether DeRo's priorities are somehow misplaced. His priorities are exactly the same as every other player on TFC, believe me. I have had exactly the same conversations with DeRo that I have had with Nana and others. Their way of thinking is very similar. Their desires, their focus, their outlook. Personalities differ, but priorities are pretty much inline with each other. The only thing that differs is his style and the manner in which he has conducted his affairs in the public eye. Given the same set of circumstances, I don't doubt that other players would not be wanting or trying for the same as DeRo, they just might go about it a different way. If that is your problem with DeRo, then I can certainly understand it. But don't fool yourself into thinking DeRo's priorities are different than anyone elses.

[TFCRegina]

You don't consider a teams 'best player' being boo'd at home to be drama? Your opinions aside, you do realize that at LEAST 50% of TFC fans are fairly strongly against Dero here (as seen by polling even before the crap hit the fan with Celtic), I don't see them going "forgive and forget". With the new hires I intend to lift my personal anti mlse boycott and go back to games this year. I will be booing Dero when hes be back in BMO. For us or the visitors. I don't think I'll be alone

If you boo any player at a TFC game that's on our side, then you're not a real reds supporter. I was pissed when people boo'd a number of our shit players at the games this year. De Ro ain't shit, and i'll still be pissed.

You don't boo the team you came out to support. If you do, pack your shit up and get the fuck out of the supporters section.

[Waggy]

So what? Unless you work for MLSE or Teachers' who cares? If you care about this club, and aren't in favour of getting rid of De Ro, a DP contract makes more sense. You're not here to protect a profit margin. He hits the cap less if he's a DP.

Also, you can front load the contract and pay him less over time if you're concerned about his productivity. There will reach a point where he retires. It's just common sense...

As for contracts being worth the money they're written on, technically they're worth that in Europe, moreso than MLS, where you have to buy out contracts through transfer fees.

Non-starter here for me Shakes.

I'm sorry Shakes, you're on your own from now on, I can't take this anymore, but one last time, I'll repeat this very simple argument (that continuously gets ignored) again, in point form

1) Toronto FC has 2 dp spots, eligible for a third
2) Toronto FC currently has a DP. Therefore only 1 DP slot left available. Eligible for an extra
3) Derosario wants to take that spot, despite already having a contract
4) Dero proves how badly he wants it, and a doubling of his salary, by flying to another country to 'train' with another team without permission from Toronto FC
5) Dero, through his agent, attempts to lie about receiving permission to go
6) Dero/his agent are proved to be lying by Toronto FC, Major League Soccer and Celtic Football Club
7) Despite this drama starting over a week ago, Dero has still not bothered to say a single word to the fans that he's essentially abandoned.

It has NOTHING to do with Deros relative worth at this point, but his worth to TORONTO FC. His worth to Toronto FC is probably LESS than the 440k he's currently making after this debacle, since I don't exactly see people lining up to buy Dero jerseys. Why in gods name would they POSSIBLY consider giving him a raise? It's not about a few hundred thousand bucks, you think I or any other TFC fan gives 2 shits about the Teachers Pension plan or their profits? It's about respecting OUR club, and respecting US. Deros actions show he respects neither, and for the life of me I can't figure out how you guys don't see this.

[Shakes McQueen]

I will be booing Dero when hes be back in BMO. For us or the visitors. I don't think I'll be alone

I won't be booing DeRo, but he has definitely lost some of his lustre. I imagine some fans probably won't be able to let go of the fact that he decided to take the opporunity in an important game we were losing, to complain about his contract - rather than quickly picking up the ball and running back to the centre circle.

As long as he comes back and plays hard, I think most will be forgotten quickly.

- Scott

[TFCRegina]

I'm sorry Shakes, you're on your own from now on, I can't take this anymore, but one last time, I'll repeat this very simple argument (that continuously gets ignored) again, in point form

1) Toronto FC has 2 dp spots, eligible for a third
2) Toronto FC currently has a DP. Therefore only 1 DP slot left available. Eligible for an extra
3) Derosario wants to take that spot, despite already having a contract
4) Dero proves how badly he wants it, and a doubling of his salary, by flying to another country to 'train' with another team without permission from Toronto FC
5) Dero, through his agent, attempts to lie about receiving permission to go
6) Dero/his agent are proved to be lying by Toronto FC, Major League Soccer and Celtic Football Club
7) Despite this drama starting over a week ago, Dero has still not bothered to say a single word to the fans that he's essentially abandoned.

It has NOTHING to do with Deros relative worth at this point, but his worth to TORONTO FC. His worth to Toronto FC is probably LESS than the 440k he's currently making after this debacle, since I don't exactly see people lining up to buy Dero jerseys. Why in gods name would they POSSIBLY consider giving him a raise? It's not about a few hundred thousand bucks, you think I or any other TFC fan gives 2 shits about the Teachers Pension plan or their profits? It's about respecting OUR club, and respecting US. Deros actions show he respects neither, and for the life of me I can't figure out how you guys don't see this.

Sorry, I just don't buy that. I didn't feel disrespected at all by De Ro's training with Celtic.

If you want to get rid of him, get rid of him. If you want to keep him, pay him more. Simple as that. Otherwise, you're hurting the club's cap position.

As an addendum (I've underlined the bit I'm addressing): So you don't care about Teachers' profits, but you're worried his not valuable in terms of selling shirts. Get real dude.

[Waggy]

If you boo any player at a TFC game that's on our side, then you're not a real reds supporter. I was pissed when people boo'd a number of our shit players at the games this year. De Ro ain't shit, and i'll still be pissed.

You don't boo the team you came out to support. If you do, pack your shit up and get the fuck out of the supporters section.

Why should I support someone who doesn't support me or what I stand for? I cheer for the club. Derosario has of his own actions removed himself from the club. I didn't do anything for him. He chose to go down this road, not me. I didn't call MLSE and say "I want TFC to give me a seat at BMO for free!" then when they didn't give it to me fly to Vancouver and start taking pics in Whitecaps gear looking for my new seasons tickets to send back to TFC to go "SEE! SEE! I'm serious! LOOK AT ME!!!!! Give me my ticket or I'm not coming back!"


Edit: I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm explaining my position. And I know I'm not alone in that position. At least half of the last 52 pages are posts made by people who agree. And don't forget the epic 50/50 even split Dero poll that took place BEFORE the Celtic drama. And these are the hardcore TFC supporters. My friends who don't care particularly much about TFC think the guy is a joke.

[Shakes McQueen]

Alright, I think we can hearken back to my earlier post now Roogsy, haha. I can't do this anymore.

I'm content to leave it where it is, until the next time I'm inevitably provoked into involvement again.

- Scott

[TFCRegina]

Why should I support someone who doesn't support me or what I stand for? I cheer for the club. Derosario has of his own actions removed himself from the club. I didn't do anything for him. He chose to go down this road, not me. I didn't call MLSE and say "I want TFC to give me a seat at BMO for free!" then when they didn't give it to me fly to Vancouver and start taking pics in Whitecaps gear looking for my new seasons tickets to send back to TFC to go "SEE! SEE! I'm serious! LOOK AT ME!!!!! Give me my ticket or I'm not coming back!"

Two completely different situations Waggy.

One is a customer of the club, another is an employee. One the club has tens of thousands of, the other it had 24(give or take) of. Only one of which has been the top producer.

And De Rosario never said once he was not coming back. Your words, put in his mouth. He has always referred to his trip as training, not trialing (oddly enough the words of the Scottish media).

Yet somehow De Rosario has claimed that he won't return to TFC from Scotland when he has never said as much.

Bullshit.

[Roogsy]

You don't consider a teams 'best player' being boo'd at home to be drama? Your opinions aside, you do realize that at LEAST 50% of TFC fans are fairly strongly against Dero here (as seen by polling even before the crap hit the fan with Celtic), I don't see them going "forgive and forget". With the new hires I intend to lift my personal anti mlse boycott and go back to games this year. I will be booing Dero when hes be back in BMO. For us or the visitors. I don't think I'll be alone

A couple of things about that.

1) Yes, on this board emotions on this are quite apparent. But away from the boards, this drama is barely noticeable. I would highly doubt 50% of people at BMO Field would boo him. Some maybe yes, but not many. And he has some that are very much on his side. They may not find themselves on the discussion boards but I've seen the support he gets elsewhere.

2) I am not going to tell you what to do but to me, booing your own player is disgusting. I have tickets in 118 right in front of where TFC players train and the abuse that Garcia, Ibby, Barrett and other players get is disgusting and I have made it known to the people booing them. I guess you'd be ok with them booing our own players. I have never liked Barrett but I have never booed him and in fact almost gotten into fights with people booing our own players, even ones I don't care for. People keep talking about players thinking they are bigger than the badge, but if you boo a player wearing that badge, then you are no better in my eyes. It is wholly hypocritial. We don't have to like every player that wears red but I do believe in the concept that when they go out to play on our behalf, on behalf of our city, I cheer for them. I will never boo them. The only time I booed was during our protests when I was booing the state of our team and the management.

Now if he leaves TFC and plays elsewhere, when he comes to play here I will be riding him all game long like I have other players, even the ones I have friended. In fact, when he was with Houston, I used to do it all the time.


P.S. I also have a real problem if this is done from the supporters section. I have tried to avoid the whole "true supporter" argument but this is a dealbreaker for me. Supporters don't boo their own player, especially when he plays harder and produces more than everyone else on the pitch.

[Waggy]

Two completely different situations Waggy.

One is a customer of the club, another is an employee. One the club has tens of thousands of, the other it had 24(give or take) of. Only one of which has been the top producer.

And De Rosario never said once he was not coming back. Your words, put in his mouth. He has always referred to his trip as training, not trialing (oddly enough the words of the Scottish media).

Yet somehow De Rosario has claimed that he won't return to TFC from Scotland when he has never said as much.

Bullshit.

The point is to claim leverage against TFC right? The leverage is "If you don't pay me someone else will". If that isn't the message Dero is trying to send, then I don't know what it is. I'm done with this whole mess. Break time from the boards for a bit, this is starting to get to me.

*Edit: And when I say Boo, I mean during introductions. Same as Garcia. I'd obviously never boo Toronto FC during a game. If hes an opposing player tho: heh.

[Roogsy]

Alright, I think we can hearken back to my earlier post now Roogsy, haha. I can't do this anymore.

I'm content to leave it where it is, until the next time I'm inevitably provoked into involvement again.

- Scott

Booyakasha! I will have my thesaurus ready to go!

[Oldtimer]

When was that asked? If it was Chevy that asked it, I have him on ignore as per his own wishes. It was just easier to avoid reading illogical ramblings.

But I am disappointed in you Oldtimer. You'd think that you would have done the legwork necessary not to look foolish, but maybe as an "oldtimer" your legs aren't what they used to be? LOL! I did state what I would have paid DeRo, several times in several threads. But because you took that shot at me, I will repay you by making you go and look for it.

My legs aren't what they used to be!!! But that's only because I dislocated my knee (as many who were at the last meeting could see). Fortunately I'm doing a lot better now.

I was only joking about a boycott in response to Batman's post. I think your posts are fine... although mighty long to read.

[Wull]

Here we go with the "real supporter" bullshit again. If we hadn't started booing the team we may still have mo and preki in charge.

To each their own with how to support a team but people who boo individual players aren't necessarily less of a supporter of a team, especially if they show up for every game.

If you boo jdg because you think he's playing half-assed is that a bad thing? Granted some players can't help but be shit like Garcia at the start of the season but players tend to get booed for a reason

[Oldtimer]

With all that considered, DeRo as a DP makes sense for the team, benefits DeRo and it removes this drama from before us. It seems so straight up to me I don't understand why people are opposed to it. Is it to cut off your nose to spite your face?

Maybe they are pissed off at DeRo for the "cheque signing" thing? Media reports were that Anselmi was incredibly angry at his action, especially given that he'd already promised to talk things over after the season ended. Likely now they've decided that there is no way they would give him a penny more, even if it would lower the cap hit.

I found it interesting that DeRo was not voted "player of the year" by his fellow team-mates despite having a personal record year. I suspect that there is a lot of unhappiness with his attitude amongst his team-mates, not just management, and this is a bad thing for the club.

I wish things weren't so, because I've always liked DeRo as a player, he is really gifted, and was one of those who really wanted to see him in TFC red. Now, regardless of anything else, he's almost certain to be gone, one way or another. Hopefully Winter will get something that he can use in exchange.

[Chevy]

I'm sorry Shakes, you're on your own from now on, I can't take this anymore, but one last time, I'll repeat this very simple argument (that continuously gets ignored) again, in point form

1) Toronto FC has 2 dp spots, eligible for a third
2) Toronto FC currently has a DP. Therefore only 1 DP slot left available. Eligible for an extra
3) Derosario wants to take that spot, despite already having a contract
4) Dero proves how badly he wants it, and a doubling of his salary, by flying to another country to 'train' with another team without permission from Toronto FC
5) Dero, through his agent, attempts to lie about receiving permission to go
6) Dero/his agent are proved to be lying by Toronto FC, Major League Soccer and Celtic Football Club
7) Despite this drama starting over a week ago, Dero has still not bothered to say a single word to the fans that he's essentially abandoned.

It has NOTHING to do with Deros relative worth at this point, but his worth to TORONTO FC. His worth to Toronto FC is probably LESS than the 440k he's currently making after this debacle, since I don't exactly see people lining up to buy Dero jerseys. Why in gods name would they POSSIBLY consider giving him a raise? It's not about a few hundred thousand bucks, you think I or any other TFC fan gives 2 shits about the Teachers Pension plan or their profits? It's about respecting OUR club, and respecting US. Deros actions show he respects neither, and for the life of me I can't figure out how you guys don't see this.

Very well put.

[Menelaos]

Here we go with the "real supporter" bullshit again. If we hadn't started booing the team we may still have mo and preki in charge.

To each their own with how to support a team but people who boo individual players aren't necessarily less of a supporter of a team, especially if they show up for every game.

If you boo jdg because you think he's playing half-assed is that a bad thing? Granted some players can't help but be shit like Garcia at the start of the season but players tend to get booed for a reason

+1 on that

[Batman]

As long as people are being civil, and not spamming, etc., why should there be a problem?

If one doesn't like it, one doesn't have to read it.

Those who want to re-hash the same arguments over and over are free to do so. It will keep them out of trouble.

Anyways, it seems that productive discussion ceased when DeRoogsy didn't post what he thought was a reasonable wage for DeRo. I suggest we boycott this thread until he comes up with a figure.

Fair enough.
I guess it's not doing anyone a disservice or anything to harm the group.
Generally, after 2 weeks of arguing and no new fact, I kind of feel those that feel one way can write all they want, but they won't convince those that feel the other way.

Hence a big waste of time.

But, as you say.. it will keep them out of trouble.

[Beach_Red]

Not true, and I've expanded on this before. There are a couple of primary points at which a contract will be re-negotiated or extended. I really, really don't want to type it all out again.

I don't believe in the honour of contracts - I believe that contracts should be worth the paper they are written on, unlike European football.

- Scott

Wow, we're past 50 pages and still going. Anyway...

To the first point above, when did MLSE give Mo the extension to his contract? An extension is a renegotiation, so they showed they were willing to do it. It must have pissed DeRo (and many others) that they renegotiated and gave an extension to Mo, but not to the players.

Sure, the cheque signing ws a bad move, but there were probably some guys in the dressing room who quietly applauded him fot it. Then Anselmi came out - again, after the cheque signing - and said they'd be happy to renegotiate but never did (if he had said there would definitely be no renegotiation now after that move it's likely people would hve supported him).

And to the second point, it's not just European football, it's standard procedure in lots of businesses - you see it in the TV business all the time and in many other sports - any time a new contract is signed before an old one has run out is a renegotiation.

[Oldtimer]

but there were probably some guys in the dressing room who quietly applauded him fot it.

Probably not, actually. Who was "player of the Year" (voted by the players)?

There is no excuse for the "cheque-signing" antic, in fact, DeRo apologized for it, himself.

[scooter]

Probably not, actually. Who was "player of the Year" (voted by the players)?

There is no excuse for the "cheque-signing" antic, in fact, DeRo apologized for it, himself.

cann

+ 1 there is no excuse for cheque signing which only indicates dero cares more about himself than the team

anyways enough i agree with batman its beat to death and the two sides are never going to agree so i am out
going to look forward to the presser at 1 pm

[BFin]

This is long overdue...

[Chevy]

LOL. Guilty as charged.

[Beach_Red]

Probably not, actually. Who was "player of the Year" (voted by the players)?

There is no excuse for the "cheque-signing" antic, in fact, DeRo apologized for it, himself.

Do you think the past management of this team treated all the players well? Do you think a change in management was needed? Of course this guy went about it the wrong way but he may have helped get a result a lot of people wanted. Not just a change in management but a more professional structure - the fact that this team's problems became so public was likely a factor in the team not simply hiring another guy recommended by the league but instead went to Klinsmann to completely re-evaluate the set-up and make improvements.

[ManUtd4ever]

Once DeRo returns from Scotland, it will be interesting to see how the new management regime resolves the situation. Aron Winter is probably not very familiar with DeRo while Paul Mariner is well aware of DeRo and his accomplishments throughout his career...

[BFin]

#999999 in your hearts and #3 on your payscale....