Post 'Townhall' Debrief and Discussion

[Azerban]

it wasnt. you weren't there, you wouldn know. the concessions will be no more add on games going forward. no paying for playoff and cup games or friendlies in the package. it sounds like there will be base packages of just league games and options to opt in to cup games and friendlies if you so choose. that's a pretty significant concession.

wow, that is a significant concession. wait, that's literally nothing they're changing this year, and you'll have to trust their word for the following year. oops. guess i was right after all, quelle surprise.

and as jloome mentioned, not forcing you to buy things that you'll generally buy anyways (won't be getting an all-star game or mls cup in the next 20 years) isn't exactly a giant promise to make

[Roogsy]

For those who weren't there and are still completely negative on the management, I can certainly understand. We made it quite clear that there has been a breach of trust on their part and that they needed to do something to fix it. They seemed to understand, so I hope some of you take that into consideration and allow yourselves to at least believe in a small way that perhaps this team might come through with that promise.

Also, a major concession last night from Paul B, which has never been stated in the media, is that now they realize packaging the MLS Cup as a no-option was a mistake. That differs from the message Tom A had been giving the media these past few weeks that it was the extra CONCACAF games that had pissed people off. So now they understand that it goes beyond those two extra CCL games and if they can understand that, perhaps they understand that the whole pricing structure was a mistake from the beginning.

As for the product on the pitch, not much was directed at Earl. Listen...we all agree that firing Mo was necessary. Most of us agree that firing Preki was necessary. The fix has been started, we will have to wait to see if they see this through to it's proper end with a proper GM and coach. So not much we can direct at them on that front other than their own realization and admission that the team has sucked for 4 years and they have to do something about it. Not sure what else we could have gotten from them last night on this issue.

At the end of the day, like Jeffro said, if you expected to come out of this with a ton of promises from the team that they were going to make the playoffs next year, dump the MLS Cup tickets from the package, reduce the price per game AND give us our own section? Well, you went into this with unrealistic expectations. This is a negotiation. Negotiations take time. We have fired off our first rounds of warning shots across the bow. First with the demonstration on Saturday and next with the anger that was quite apparent at the town hall. In good negotiations, you still have to wait for the other side to make a move. Now it's TFC's turn to act. Let's see if they do the right thing. If not, they can be quite sure they will hear from us. But if they do, are we willing to give them credit where it's due? Or are we just going to appear as unreasonable people that will be pissed off at them no matter what they do?

[DichioTFC]

For those who weren't there and are still completely negative on the management, I can certainly understand. We made it quite clear that there has been a breach of trust on their part and that they needed to do something to fix it. They seemed to understand, so I hope some of you take that into consideration and allow yourselves to at least believe in a small way that perhaps this team might come through with that promise.

Also, a major concession last night from Paul B, which has never been stated in the media, is that now they realize packaging the MLS Cup as a no-option was a mistake. That differs from the message Tom A had been giving the media these past few weeks that it was the extra CONCACAF games that had pissed people off. So now they understand that it goes beyond those two extra CCL games and if they can understand that, perhaps they understand that the whole pricing structure was a mistake from the beginning.

As for the product on the pitch, not much was directed at Earl. Listen...we all agree that firing Mo was necessary. Most of us agree that firing Preki was necessary. The fix has been started, we will have to wait to see if they see this through to it's proper end with a proper GM and coach. So not much we can direct at them on that front other than their own realization and admission that the team has sucked for 4 years and they have to do something about it. Not sure what else we could have gotten from them last night on this issue.

At the end of the day, like Jeffro said, if you expected to come out of this with a ton of promises from the team that they were going to make the playoffs next year, dump the MLS Cup tickets from the package, reduce the price per game AND give us our own section? Well, you went into this with unrealistic expectations. This is a negotiation. Negotiations take time. We have fired off our first rounds of warning shots across the bow. First with the demonstration on Saturday and next with the anger that was quite apparent at the town hall. In good negotiations, you still have to wait for the other side to make a move. Now it's TFC's turn to act. Let's see if they do the right thing. If not, they can be quite sure they will hear from us. But if they do, are we willing to give them credit where it's due? Or are we just going to appear as unreasonable people that will be pissed off at them no matter what they do?

Well said.

As much as I want a supporter-controlled section, those are talks for Boris, Phil and the exec to have with the FO. I have full confidence that they will try their best on it, but unfortunately, that will take time. Quite frankly, I don't know if we're completely ready for a supporter-controlled section right now.

In the meantime, there are great mini-supporter sections that are bubbling up. the 75 Mile Bastards congregate at the top of 110 and we would absolutely love for more supporters to come up there and help us out with chants. Top of 109 has Run TFC, a new group that's been formed recently. In between we have Sparta doing a damn good job every single night.

Throughout the south end there are areas that are great for supporters even if its outside 112. If you are choosing to renew, I strongly encourage you to fill the void that will be left by people not renewing and be just as full of voice as those who are departing those sections.

[Beach_Red]

^ any concession around the MLS Cup seems insincere because with close to twenty other teams and new stadiums going in all the time it's not likely the game will be back in Toronto for decades.

The MLS Cup was the straw that broke the camel's back for many people when it came to renewing for next year, but it's really a red herring in this discussion. It's not going to come up again.

Everything I hear from this FO sounds like, "We thought we could charge you a lot and this year it looks like we can't, but as soon as we can again, we will."

Which, if I was a shareholder would be exactly what I'd want to hear from my management team.

[Roogsy]

^ any concession around the MLS Cup seems insincere because with close to twenty other teams and new stadiums going in all the time it's not likely the game will be back in Toronto for decades.

The MLS Cup was the straw that broke the camel's back for many people when it came to renewing for next year, but it's really a red herring in this discussion. It's not going to come up again.

Everything I hear from this FO sounds like, "We thought we could charge you a lot and this year it looks like we can't, but as soon as we can again, we will."

Which, if I was a shareholder would be exactly what I'd want to hear from my management team.

That's cynicism talking BR and I completely understand it because I am struggling with it myself.

That MLSE will make another boneheaded move, I am sure will happen. These are corporate executives that don't sit with the regular guy and thus will eventually make a decision that the little guy won't like or understand. We have to prepare for that.

And yes, the MLS Cup won't be here again for many years so the promises on that end may sound empty. But they're not as empty as they seem. There are other events that they will probably bid on that they will need to consider the repercussions and reactions from the fans. And hopefully in the future, they will remember this experience and take that into consideration. At the end of the day, that is all we can ask no? It's not like any one of us actually has any real say in how MLSE chooses to operate their team other than to say "goodbye" and not renew that is.

[H Bomb]

Now it's TFC's turn to act. Let's see if they do the right thing. If not, they can be quite sure they will hear from us. But if they do, are we willing to give them credit where it's due? Or are we just going to appear as unreasonable people that will be pissed off at them no matter what they do?

when they do something, i'll listen. Until then then get absolutely no benefit of the doubt

[Roogsy]

Fair enough Matt. We are all waiting on TFC. That was also a message that was sent last night. We all want to see actions and answers from them sooner rather than later.

However, my point still stands. If they do make a reasonable gesture to all fans in the stadium, at what point do we say "let's move on"? That's all I want everyone to consider.

After all, the fighting and the confrontation isn't what I joined this group for, it isn't why I bought tickets to TFC games. I want this all to be about the soccer and the gameday experience. I'd like things to go back to those issues and not have to worry about fighting the FO about ticket price increases. If they give me some sort of concession on that front, this soldier will lay down his arms.

[H Bomb]

hey man, I said straight up last night. Give us the MLS cup for free. told them how much BS would go away if they did. Basically pleaded with them to understand. But the blank looks on their faces spoke for themselves. They dont understand the market, or the product they sell. what hope do we have?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

For those who weren't there and are still completely negative on the management, I can certainly understand. We made it quite clear that there has been a breach of trust on their part and that they needed to do something to fix it. They seemed to understand, so I hope some of you take that into consideration and allow yourselves to at least believe in a small way that perhaps this team might come through with that promise.

Also, a major concession last night from Paul B, which has never been stated in the media, is that now they realize packaging the MLS Cup as a no-option was a mistake. That differs from the message Tom A had been giving the media these past few weeks that it was the extra CONCACAF games that had pissed people off. So now they understand that it goes beyond those two extra CCL games and if they can understand that, perhaps they understand that the whole pricing structure was a mistake from the beginning.

As for the product on the pitch, not much was directed at Earl. Listen...we all agree that firing Mo was necessary. Most of us agree that firing Preki was necessary. The fix has been started, we will have to wait to see if they see this through to it's proper end with a proper GM and coach. So not much we can direct at them on that front other than their own realization and admission that the team has sucked for 4 years and they have to do something about it. Not sure what else we could have gotten from them last night on this issue.

At the end of the day, like Jeffro said, if you expected to come out of this with a ton of promises from the team that they were going to make the playoffs next year, dump the MLS Cup tickets from the package, reduce the price per game AND give us our own section? Well, you went into this with unrealistic expectations. This is a negotiation. Negotiations take time. We have fired off our first rounds of warning shots across the bow. First with the demonstration on Saturday and next with the anger that was quite apparent at the town hall. In good negotiations, you still have to wait for the other side to make a move. Now it's TFC's turn to act. Let's see if they do the right thing. If not, they can be quite sure they will hear from us. But if they do, are we willing to give them credit where it's due? Or are we just going to appear as unreasonable people that will be pissed off at them no matter what they do?

Thank you, so tired of people whinging and whining with unrealistic demands. Thank god someone else has a sense of reality re: this situation. Its rare that i applaud other people on here and Roogsy and I have not always seen eye to eye on things (in a friendly manner of course) but i agree with this statement 100%.

[Azerban]

However, my point still stands. If they do make a reasonable gesture to all fans in the stadium, at what point do we say "let's move on"? That's all I want everyone to consider.

"I know it when I see it" - Justice Potter Stewart

[maximo_rpd]

it wasnt. you weren't there, you wouldn know. the concessions will be no more add on games going forward. no paying for playoff and cup games or friendlies in the package. it sounds like there will be base packages of just league games and options to opt in to cup games and friendlies if you so choose. that's a pretty significant concession.

What planet do you come from? Clearly you heard what you wanted to hear - what you stated above is just absolute hogwash.

MLSE WILL always add "extra" games into the package

MLSE WILL add other "Cup" games in - if it will make money for them

THERE HAS BEEN NO CONCESSION - can't somebody do something about the interns on this board???

[Roogsy]

The MLS Cup is the marquee event Matt. That is an unreasonable request. You were basically asking them to take a bath financially which is not what most fans want. Most of us realize that MLSE making a good profit from TFC is also good for us too. It would mean continued support and continued investment in the club through facilities and players. When has a corporation ever decided to take a million dollars of losses voluntarily unless they are ordered to by a court? You don't start a negotiation by asking for the moon. That only entrenches the opposition and clouds over any real issues and concessions that might actually be negotiated.

[maximo_rpd]

Some people were giving them away in the ticket trader on this site. Take a peek!

For those thinking of renewing - get used to the new reality - your tickets ain't worth squat... Currently on Stubhub.com somebody is demanding $6.99 to go to this game - he will never sell his tickets at that price - what was he thinking????

[jabbronies]

i was at both sessions last night.

IMO The MLSE brass seemed confident and at ease at the 6pm SSH meeting.
They were shooting off their pre-scripted answers with minimal resistance.

However for the second RPB session, they were defiantly a lot more flustered. They would try and rhyme off their scripted answers, but when rebutted and proven false, they were at a loss for words.

I don't know what was or wasn't said at the NEE session, but they were saying that there were things said in the RPB meeting that hadn't been mentioned before and opened their eyes.

Could just be PR speak, but looking at their faces change from session 1 to session 2, I'd say there was some genuineness to what they were saying.

[H Bomb]

its an extra game. Giving it free is not a huge cost, and will make people want to purchase more stuff once inside BMO. Once we tanked it should have always been free and isnt in any way unrealistic. They're profits are still painfully high and soar above any preteam estimations. They did all the screwing up, and we've paid for it all. One jesture of good will at a small price that will increase future revenue? That's nothing close to unrealistic

[TFC Cityboy]

This is a negotiation. Negotiations take time. We have fired off our first rounds of warning shots across the bow. First with the demonstration on Saturday and next with the anger that was quite apparent at the town hall. In good negotiations, you still have to wait for the other side to make a move. Now it's TFC's turn to act. Let's see if they do the right thing. If not, they can be quite sure they will hear from us. But if they do, are we willing to give them credit where it's due? Or are we just going to appear as unreasonable people that will be pissed off at them no matter what they do?

This is key.
There is no doubting that MLSE has screwed up the renewal process this year with their arrogance. Whether your personal issue is the per-game increase, the MLS Cup or the CCL games included, they fucked up and they have acknowledged this.

It was clear to all in the room that it was a very uncomfortable meeting for Tom and Paul. I give them huge credit for putting themselves in the firing line as they faced a barrage of anger last night. Cudos to Paul for putting his ass on the line if changes are not made (he has more balls than his boss).

The ball will be in the MLSE's court once these meetings conclude. As a group we voiced our concerns last night- I do not think that Anselme had any idea of our seething anger towards the club we all support so passionately.

MLSE was reasonable in listening to us, and we need to be reasonable in evaluating whatever response they come back with.

[pdelgadinho]

Just wondering if there have been any thoughts for having another townhall session for supporters but with only a few "representatives" from the supporters groups?

I think it was important to have an open townhall for all the supporter members that wanted to attend so FO could see the mass displeasure, but I also think that having a more civilized sit down townhall would also be beneficial. If 3 to 6 people were nominated to represent the supporters and attend the townhall with a list of issues/topics that want to be discussed, it would probably be easier to stay on topic and get answers with no time constriants. It's good to have a few representatives present as sometimes one will think of a comment or point that another doesn't, but having only a handful of voices would come through more clearly than 100.

Just my 2 cents.

[Roogsy]

its an extra game. Giving it free is not a huge cost, and will make people want to purchase more stuff once inside BMO. Once we tanked it should have always been free and isnt in any way unrealistic. They're profits are still painfully high and soar above any preteam estimations. They did all the screwing up, and we've paid for it all. One jesture of good will at a small price that will increase future revenue? That's nothing close to unrealistic

The MLS Marquee event could never be "free". Not only would the league come down hard on that, it would also set a bad precedent for other teams.

If you want dollar value concessions, a more reasonable request would be to reduce the price per game costs or rollback pricing to 2010, 2009 or 2008 prices. Or give us an international game free. That's a proper starting point.

But the biggest game of the year for MLS and you want it for free? If it were private negotiations, they would have laughed it out of the room. It just isn't reasonable Matt. It's not just the dollar value, it's the optics of the value of this game for the league. You don't hurt your brand that way and that is exactly what you'd be asking them to do, especially since the brand that would be damaged would be the league's, not just TFC.

Can you imagine supporters demanding free tickets to the FA Cup final? That's the equivalent of what you are asking.

[Azerban]

reminder: the primary focus of these townhalls is to diffuse anger by showing that "they're listening" and offering cheap promises so we forget to fuck up Their Superbowl

and it will probably work

[Suds]

The fact is they fucked up on the MLS Cup and they know it.

The whole thing could have been handled so much differently. When the All-Star game was brought up as a game that was optional yet still sold out, they conceded that maybe that should have been the better option.

They also said they completely mis-read the demand for the MLS Cup by fans. I think the missed the point about us wanting or not wanted the actual event in Toronto. It's not that we, as soccer fans, are not interested in hosting the MLS Cup and showcasing our city. It's that we would liked it to be our option to buy tickets to the event or not.

[jabbronies]

Just wondering if there have been any thoughts for having another townhall session for supporters but with only a few "representatives" from the supporters groups?

If I'm not mistaken, Leaders of each supporters group meet a couple times with the FO throughout the year.

[Seen]

The look on Tom & Paul's face when the gentlemen (sorry, not sure of his name) stood up and said he had seats in multiple sections and would not be paying his $10,000 renewal invoice was priceless!

[jabbronies]

reminder: the primary focus of these townhalls is to diffuse anger by showing that "they're listening" and offering cheap promises so we forget to fuck up Their Superbowl

and it will probably work

Let's not forget, if we "Fuck up their Super Bowl" we are not only fucking with MLSE - but also more the MLS and the two teams partaking in it. make sure when you pick a fight, you are picking it against the correct people.

[maximo_rpd]

Our decision to renew will have to be based on whether we accept the new pricing for next year and if we trust them to do the right thing going forward. That will be up to each and every one of us.

Please don't be fooled by this statement made above. This is negotiation. They say take it or leave it - we say leave it, they extend the renewal deadline again, another dorky letter with more concessions, maybe it is good enough, maybe it isn't - This is not over yet - the worst thing anyone can do right now is renew.

Also don't forget - the tickets are not worth anything - you might get $6.99 for them if you are extremely lucky - you might as well plan to donate them to the homeless - although they might just hand them back to you anyway...

[H Bomb]

All i know is that after last night I have less respect for the people in charge of our team. I've said for years that PB and TA are fuck ups. And I've been right. They are a huge reason we are terrible at everything. To think we've been called the model franshise. I'm ashamed of it all. How someone could come out of those meetings and think it was nice to do listened to. We talked for an hour and werent listened to once. It's a joke, in its entirity. The only thing keeping me around is that I love football, and cant change that, even if i try. But this is the worst I've been treated by any business in my not so long life.

[Roogsy]

Please don't be fooled by this statement made above. This is negotiation. They say take it or leave it - we say leave it, they extend the renewal deadline again, another dorky letter with more concessions, maybe it is good enough, maybe it isn't - This is not over yet - the worst thing anyone can do right now is renew.

Also don't forget - the tickets are not worth anything - you might get $6.99 for them if you are extremely lucky - you might as well plan to donate them to the homeless - although they might just hand them back to you anyway...

The only thing I agree with you is that the tickets are "worthless". Well, pretty much. People can barely give away tickets and we all know that. So each one of us has to make a decision to renew based on whether we can personally afford to carry the tickets for the year. Unlike in previous years where the costs were offset by being able to sell the tickets off. That much I agree with.

The rest of your comment is speculation. You are counting a desperate corporation that will make wholesale concessions to get butts in the seats. You may be right. Or then again, you may not be. But that is a dangerous game of chicken you want to play. I for one don't want to lose my south stand tickets playing that game of chicken. I am quite sure someone will snatch them up so I will be renewing those. The ones I won't be renewing are my more expensive seats hoping that I can pick up cheaper ones as the year goes by. But I have no guarantees that I will be able to do I?

[Dave67]

The look on Tom & Paul's face when the gentlemen (sorry, not sure of his name) stood up and said he had seats in multiple sections and would not be paying his $10,000 renewal invoice was priceless!

It was worth having this meeting and everyone getting together for that one moment alone.

Something that does not come across well on internet message boards is the tone of the questions and the real feel in the room.

The anger and frustration coming from both sides was at times intense (certainly with our frustration). You will never get the real vibe of this meeting by reading word for word what was said last night.

[Beach_Red]

reminder: the primary focus of these townhalls is to diffuse anger by showing that "they're listening" and offering cheap promises so we forget to fuck up Their Superbowl

and it will probably work

Yes. The MLS Cup really is a one-off, non-issue. of course they're going to charge for it.

But they're trying to sell season tickets for season FIVE of a team that has never made the playoffs, has no one in charge and is in a complete shambles.

Oh, and they raised the prices a little.

But now they're "listening" because apparently if people hadn't said anything they wouldn't have noticed there's a problem.

I don't think I'm cynical, I think I'm realistic. I think I'm looking at the way they have run this team and I don't see any real improvements. I don't see any respect given to the customer, just hear a lot of empty talk.

People left the meeting not sure if they've frozen ticket prices?!?!? Isn't that called burying the lead? If they froze ticket prices they'd be sending out emails, having press confeences, taking out ads, making sure everyone wo might be thinking abou buying a ticket knows. There would't be any confusion.

I hope renewals are down to 30% and they have to work like stink to get people to come back. I hope they have to break the bank and spend like crazy on a GM and a coach and three top-flight DPs.

Is it really to much to ask that they don't enter the FIFTH SEASON as woefully unprepared as they've entered every other season?

[Roogsy]

I wish I would have met more of you guys. I hope you all come to the RPB Year End party. We really need to put more faces to names.

[Azerban]

Let's not forget, if we "Fuck up their Super Bowl" we are not only fucking with MLSE - but also more the MLS and the two teams partaking in it. make sure when you pick a fight, you are picking it against the correct people.

so your position is that nothing should be done at the mls cup

good to know