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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    OK this is a fine example of the problem with business journalism in general (this problem is way bigger than Grange or Brunt or MLSE or sports reporting). The people who write the stories do not understand the subject.

    Erol Uzomeri is a deeply biased source spewing a highly predictable line. By definition. Not that the Globe even remotely understands this.

    When you raise a new fund, you are relying almost entirely on your "track record", which means (i) you need to make everything you were involved in previously look great, and (ii) you have to stay in the good graces of your former colleagues/employers, who will get calls about you from potential new investors as part of their decision to invest.

    Ex employees raising funds always do what Erol did in talking about previous gigs, you shower complements on everybody you worked with - everyone in the business kind of rolls their eyes at this stuff..... "I'm great, you're great, it's the love train".

    Same goes for the Leiweke/AEG bit. What did the Globe expect an MLSE partner to say to their puffball questions?

    In this story, The Globe was getting used by absolutely everyone involved and didn't even know it.
    That's journalism, my friend. People in privileged positions always get interviewed in stories. At the very least, it's the journalist's job to interview those people. NOT interviewing Erol would be considered a serious deficiency in the story.

    But what do you expect? Who would you interview that knows MLSE inside and out and would speak against them? And even if you did, you'd still need Erol's quote in "defense." That's objectivity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    I actually like Brunt a lot.

    But the line about the MLSE execs feeling our pain is a load of shit. Sardonic or not.

    And it actually ruins a perfectly good piece of writing up to that point.

    Ensco is right. When did an MLSE exec ever pay for running a crappy sports organization? The answer is never.
    Sardonic. Sarcastic. As in they meant the opposite of what it said.

    Good Lord, people, how could anyone read that column and not conclude that the headline was mocking MLSE?

    I weep for the newspaper industry.(Well, OK, not weep, because that's just too damn fey. But you get the drift.)

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoopee View Post
    Fixed.
    Nope, I vote for Dan Gardener at the Citizen.

    Or were you being sardonic?Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Sardonic. Sarcastic. As in they meant the opposite of what it said.

    Good Lord, people, how could anyone read that column and not conclude that the headline was mocking MLSE?

    I weep for the newspaper industry.(Well, OK, not weep, because that's just too damn fey. But you get the drift.)

    The question is, was Brunt mocking MLSE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I weep for the newspaper industry.(Well, OK, not weep, because that's just too damn fey. But you get the drift.)
    I weep for the newspaper industry too. If the shit the Globe and Mail just produced about MLSE can be considered hard hitting journalism than journalism is dead.

    If I wanted fluff like their series on MLSE I would just watch Entertainment Tonight. At least they don't try to pretend to be something they are not.

    Fuck, I'm tired of the this sardonic/sarcastic debate. When I first read the article I didn't catch the sarcasm. It just goes to show you how shitty a use of sarcasm it was if the reader has to read it over 2 or 3 teams to catch it.

    And I still think the headline sucks and overall its a pretty shitty article from someone who is usually better.

    The Globe is just trying to get some buzz on their site relaunch because they know that the topic of MLSE will get them lots of hits on their comment sections. But overall the articles were nothing but a weak look into the company. I found the entire series embarrassing.
    Last edited by menefreghista; 10-05-2010 at 11:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Great article by the ever-awesome Stephen Brunt - my candidate for best sports writer in Canada.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1742275/

    - Scott
    Sorry, I fail to see anything amazing about this story.

    Yes, there's a corproation controlling the Leafs, Raptors and TFC instead of a Liverpool-like situation where you have two very clear whipping boys.

    Yes, that corporation is owned by Teachers', TD Capital and Larry T. None of those entities have any obligation whatsoever to explain why the MLSE teams continue to flounder, regardless of sport and spending.

    All of those have an obligation -- Teachers' to the pensioners, TD Capital to the fund investors and Larry T to, ostensibly, himself -- to maximize return.

    Why is this newsworthy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    But overall the articles were nothing but a weak look into the company. I found the entire series embarrassing.
    Weak, but not horrible. At least they got a former exec from Teachers' to go on the record, something that I've never seen before, even though he was defending their actions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Weak, but not horrible. At least they got a former exec from Teachers' to go on the record, something that I've never seen before, even though he was defending their actions.
    Well, part of the problem for me is that very little new was learned from them. If you've followed Toronto sports long enough you already knew most of the info. It was almost like one long neutered wikipedia entry on the company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    Well, part of the problem for me is that very little new was learned from them. If you've followed Toronto sports long enough you already knew most of the info. It was almost like one long neutered wikipedia entry on the company.

    And it's not like there isn't analysis to do. Paul James wrote a good article a few months ago comparing the Vancouver front office to the TFC front office. If any reporter asked anyone at MLSE why they thought one guy with no experience could do the job and Vancouver felt it necessary to bring in a more experienced guy from DC United and a more experienced guy from Tottenham and a more experienced coach, they haven't reported an answer.

    I guess that's all I'm looking for. We see in all their actions that MLSE realize they've made a mistake by the way they correct it (not just Burke for JF Jr., but Burke and Nonis and so on). But by never admitting to the mistake in the first place we have no confidence it really will be corrected.

    And then, with no one hired to run the team they raise the prices. It does seem to be past the point of gentle, sardonic headlines and puff pieces about how they feel bad, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Sardonic. Sarcastic. As in they meant the opposite of what it said.

    Good Lord, people, how could anyone read that column and not conclude that the headline was mocking MLSE?

    I weep for the newspaper industry.(Well, OK, not weep, because that's just too damn fey. But you get the drift.)
    sorry jloome, this has nothing to do with the industry or the decline of the reader. That's just a bad story compounded by a bad headline.

    This isn't the Times Literary Supplement, spare me the "say something by not saying it" stylistic affectation. I wish someone would just address what they say. Straight up.

    But they're all terrified of going too far and losing their sources.
    Last edited by ensco; 10-05-2010 at 12:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    That's journalism, my friend. People in privileged positions always get interviewed in stories. At the very least, it's the journalist's job to interview those people. NOT interviewing Erol would be considered a serious deficiency in the story.

    But what do you expect? Who would you interview that knows MLSE inside and out and would speak against them? And even if you did, you'd still need Erol's quote in "defense." That's objectivity.
    No, that's not journalism. If the writer had understood the dynamics, he would have asked a very different set of questions and/or challenged the answers he got. He also would have disclosed the inherent bias in the source, instead of portraying him as the secret voice of truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    And it's not like there isn't analysis to do. Paul James wrote a good article a few months ago comparing the Vancouver front office to the TFC front office. If any reporter asked anyone at MLSE why they thought one guy with no experience could do the job and Vancouver felt it necessary to bring in a more experienced guy from DC United and a more experienced guy from Tottenham and a more experienced coach, they haven't reported an answer.

    I guess that's all I'm looking for. We see in all their actions that MLSE realize they've made a mistake by the way they correct it (not just Burke for JF Jr., but Burke and Nonis and so on). But by never admitting to the mistake in the first place we have no confidence it really will be corrected.

    And then, with no one hired to run the team they raise the prices. It does seem to be past the point of gentle, sardonic headlines and puff pieces about how they feel bad, too.
    This is all I'm asking for. Not a cursory overview of the organization that I already knew being a fan of all three of their teams.

    As for your last point, don't worry about it, Paul Beirne is off traveling the world looking at training facilities from top clubs. I'm sure we will get some kind of announcement on TFC's new facility in the lead up to the October 15 renewal deadline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    No, that's not journalism. If the writer had understood the dynamics, he would have asked a very different set of questions and/or challenged the answers he got. He also would have disclosed the inherent bias in the source, instead of portraying him as the secret voice of truth.

    So what you're saying is instead of having a sports reporter ask the execs if they feel bad the teams are all losing, you would prefer that a business reporter ask them how come the shareholders don't mind that they aren't maximizing profits the way winning teams would?

    But you understand that no reporter in any section of the newspaper is going to ask tough questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    This is all I'm asking for. Not a cursory overview of the organization that I already knew being a fan of all three of their teams.

    As for your last point, don't worry about it, Paul Beirne is off traveling the world looking at training facilities from top clubs. I'm sure we will get some kind of announcement on TFC's new facility in the lead up to the October 15 renewal deadline.

    I forgot all about that training facility. Have they found a partner yet? Isn't that what they were looking for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    I forgot all about that training facility. Have they found a partner yet? Isn't that what they were looking for?
    PB's twitter says he's looked at Chelsea's, Arsenal's, Man City's and others. I don't know whether this is looking for a partner or just looking at how it's done properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    So what you're saying is instead of having a sports reporter ask the execs if they feel bad the teams are all losing, you would prefer that a business reporter ask them how come the shareholders don't mind that they aren't maximizing profits the way winning teams would?

    But you understand that no reporter in any section of the newspaper is going to ask tough questions.
    You're right. Business reporters aren't better, mostly. They have the same issue of being captive to their sources.

    I just want someone not to insult my intelligence by just taking dictation. Guess I need to go find another universe to go live in.
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    The only time these assholes feel the pain is when their sides ache from laughing at us.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Where's the pain? Who else gets to keep their jobs year after year for underperformance? Show me somebody in the management structure of MLSE or Teachers who has lost their job in the last 12 years (Erol U left on his own to start a fund.)

    Why does Brunt buy the premise that the Teachers overlords, or Peddie, "feel the pain too"?

    Just because they say so?

    Friday it was the ridiculous chart showing Peddie's favorite fairy tale, about how great MLSE are at creating value. It's pretty easy to prove that value creation at MLSE has been borderline pathetic since 1998, not that anyone can be bothered to raise this fairly simple point. Instead every writer just parrots the MLSE line on this - "we may not have winning teams, but we make gobs of money".

    Nobody will say the truth - MLSE don't have good teams or make nearly as much money as they could/should.

    MLSE owns these journalists. They're afraid to challenge anything MLSE execs say.

    (I agree that Brunt is pretty good generally. But even he's afraid to take these guys on, they're too powerful, MLSE could ruin your career as a journalist if they decided to cut you off.)
    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    You're right. Business reporters aren't better, mostly. They have the same issue of being captive to their sources.

    I just want someone not to insult my intelligence by just taking dictation. Guess I need to go find another universe to go live in.

    QFFT... on both points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerRed View Post
    PB's twitter says he's looked at Chelsea's, Arsenal's, Man City's and others. I don't know whether this is looking for a partner or just looking at how it's done properly.
    The "Partner" MLSE is looking for is a GTA community or community organization that will pick up part of the cost for the training facility in exchange for getting to use it themselves. It has nothing to do with Paul B.'s tour, which is gathering info on how to properly set up such a facility once you've inked the deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The "Partner" MLSE is looking for is a GTA community or community organization that will pick up part of the cost for the training facility in exchange for getting to use it themselves. It has nothing to do with Paul B.'s tour, which is gathering info on how to properly set up such a facility once you've inked the deal.
    Aren't they also looking for a Municipality to foot some of the bill? Whether its in the form of money or land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    Aren't they also looking for a Municipality to foot some of the bill? Whether its in the form of money or land.
    That was in my point that you quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The "Partner" MLSE is looking for is a GTA community or community organization that will pick up part of the cost for the training facility in exchange for getting to use it themselves. It has nothing to do with Paul B.'s tour, which is gathering info on how to properly set up such a facility once you've inked the deal.
    municipality = community
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    I'm pretty surprised how long its taking them to find a corporate sponsor for the academy. BMO jumped in right away 4-5 years ago, but the failed product is really hurting their off-field enterprises as well (one would assume).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That was in my point that you quoted:
    Sorry, I never tried to imply that you didn't know. I just wanted to be blunt about what MLSE/TFC is looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by DichioTFC View Post
    I'm pretty surprised how long its taking them to find a corporate sponsor for the academy.
    I don't think they are looking for a corporate sponsor.

    They are looking to see which GTA municipality is willing to cough up the most amount of land/money to help build the training facility.
    Last edited by menefreghista; 10-05-2010 at 03:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    I don't think they are looking for a corporate sponsor.

    They are looking to see which GTA municipality is willing to cough up the most amount of land/money to help build the training facility.
    I hope it isn't Brampton even though both of academy players sign to the first team are from Brampton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    I hope it isn't Brampton even though both of academy players sign to the first team are from Brampton.
    From a talent stand point, Brampton would make the most sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post

    They are looking to see which GTA municipality is willing to cough up the most amount of land/money to help build the training facility.
    Far be it for ML$E to pay for their own academy's expenses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The "Partner" MLSE is looking for is a GTA community or community organization that will pick up part of the cost for the training facility in exchange for getting to use it themselves. It has nothing to do with Paul B.'s tour, which is gathering info on how to properly set up such a facility once you've inked the deal.
    A friend of mine stated that he was at the Milton City Council when they voted to "send a letter of intent" to ML$E regarding the aforementioned training facility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    sorry jloome, this has nothing to do with the industry or the decline of the reader. That's just a bad story compounded by a bad headline.

    This isn't the Times Literary Supplement, spare me the "say something by not saying it" stylistic affectation. I wish someone would just address what they say. Straight up.

    But they're all terrified of going too far and losing their sources.

    Unlikely. Stephen Brunt doesn't give a shit if MLSE stops talking to him for a little while. Brunt has an agent, for fuck's sake, he's not a newsroom hound. And good reporters know how to take advantage of blackouts or censure.

    More likely it was just lazy. But the point of the headline was still supposed to be sardonic, and the fact that people didn't get their is an indictment both of readers and of the press for the general decline that's led to this point. If the piece had been more obviously sardonic, the headline would've been more obviously sardonic.

    Seriously, when I say I weep for my industry, it's a two-way street. We've been boiled down to the cheapest and least-experienced writers and journalists you'd ever meet, and yet the readership declines aren't as staggering as people think; the Sun here still has about 70% of the readers it had a decade ago. Vast swaths of the public, the industry has decided (and by industry, I mean owners), will read anything.

    So it's led, through 30 years of cutbacks and almalgamations following the Kent commission, to a general degradation of both quality journalism AND the expectations from the public.

    The other day, we had an editorial board meeting with mayoral candidates. I spent half an hour asking questions while six other members of the media sat there like blank slates, just waiting for it to be over. If they didn't have to do the work, they weren't going to.

    THAT in large degree is what you're experiencing with the average MLSE conference: disengaged reporters who are only there for the paycheque and don't give much of a shit about the material. Few old-school journalists would have the stomach to work in the current environment, so that's what we're left with.

    And part of that is the cynicism that comes with knowing all of these declining standards haven't stopped many , many newspapers from still making money hand over fist.

    And Eugene, 10 years ago, even obtuse readers would occasionally appreciate a little narrative, when "saying something without saying it" was just another literary affectation.

    Now, obtuse readers call and ask for directions home at night. Consequently, I'm not even sure the media is serving your market (i.e. addressing what they say, straight up) anymore.

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    ^We agree on virtually all of that.

    Good journalists are the vanguard of a functioning society. A good writer needs/demands an engaged audience.

    I would be happy if my kid wanted to be a journalist. I think it's still a career with a future. At some level, all the good contributions on this board are a kind of good journalism.

    I just don't want the Globe to think that because Brunt occasionally pens high-concept parodies, that may or may not hit the mark, it excuses their lack of interest in actual facts.
    Last edited by ensco; 10-06-2010 at 12:46 PM.
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    ^ In this case I think you also have to take into account the newspaper's inability to read the mood of the readers. Sports fans in Toronto are pretty much past the point of appreciating, "saying something without saying it." We're looking for someone - anyone - to start actually saying something.

 

 

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