Today's News,Monday,Aug.16

[denime]

Mornin'


No TFC News for now,if you find some please post it here.




SUNSHINE

[Oldtimer]

MLS is focused on adding a 20th team, in New York, but its expansion ambitions extend beyond that and could make it the first top-flight soccer league worldwide to add a 21st team. MLS Commissioner Don Garber said last week the league won’t cap expansion at 20 teams.

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com...rticleid=66450 (subscription needed to see full article).

I imagine that FIFA won't stand in the way, given the unique situation in North America.

[flatpicker]

I have to say, the idea of expanding past 20 teams doesn't sit well with me.
Not in the current MLS set-up.

Sure, it would simply be like all the other pro-leagues in the USA and Canada.
But I'd much prefer that the league takes more of a global approach to it's structure.

If they want to expand to several more locations, then I would really like to see a two-tier MLS formed.
I know the league is not fond of relegation, but if we are only talking about two levels, then structure, and revenue sharing, could still be tightly monitored and controlled throughout.
It could include teams from USL/NASL in order to form two levels with 20 teams in each.

Pipe dream I know, but I don't think it would be completely unrealistic to build.

[razor787]

MLS isnt ready for relegation. For it to work, each team would need a stadium that can support the amount of fans the MLS would require. Not only is that a lot of money, but there isnt the support for it.

If TFC were relegated, the first season of relegation, things would suffer, but there would still be some fans. If they dont make it out, the next season the fans would look elsewhere, and a lot wouldnt come back.

Thats with a team with solid supporters. A team like Dallas or Columbus would die completely if they get relegated.

[keem-o-sabi]

coed ladies of the day 1 and 2

[rocker]

If TFC were relegated, the first season of relegation, things would suffer, but there would still be some fans. If they dont make it out, the next season the fans would look elsewhere, and a lot wouldnt come back.

yeah, the prob with Torontonians is they don't support perceived "minor league" sports in the same level as "major league." If TFC got relegated, people would probably see it as a step down from the major league.
There are a few proposals (same cap/revenue in both first and second division, perhaps some interleague play) that might work in that regard, but I see it as playing with fire for a developing league looking to set down roots.



If it was ever put to a vote, I would not vote to allow the possibility of my home team being relegated.

[Beach_Red]

MLS isnt ready for relegation. For it to work, each team would need a stadium that can support the amount of fans the MLS would require. Not only is that a lot of money, but there isnt the support for it.

If TFC were relegated, the first season of relegation, things would suffer, but there would still be some fans. If they dont make it out, the next season the fans would look elsewhere, and a lot wouldnt come back.

Thats with a team with solid supporters. A team like Dallas or Columbus would die completely if they get relegated.

And TFC would have to find new owners.

In fact, most MLS teams would hve to find new owners. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe there are 40 owners out there who would love to invest their money in a non-salary cap soccer league in North America with relegation.

[Redcoe15]

Soccer isn't popular enough in North America (i.e., the U.S. and Canada) to implement promotion/relegation. There aren't enough cities with the infastructure to handle the big time, and most major league markets would see their support die completely if relegated.

It just seems to me that people who want pro/rel implemented here do so just so the can be like other leagues in the world.

[razor787]

exactly. For Pro/Rel to work, there needs to be a much stronger infastructure. The league would need to be sucessfull working like other leagues around the world. No Salary cap, teams buy the players, not the league, ect.

Until the league grows to a point where the training wheels come off, it wont work.

If they really want it to happen, the US Soccer Federation needs to start working on growing the USL and the CSL needs to do the same. Once those leagues have more support, and they are can support stadiums with 10, 000 capacity minimum, then a look at a pro/rel system would be an idea. I dont see the support being there for another 10-15 years.

[bgnewf]

If you are charging an expansion fee of $40 million dollars then there is no way those owners are going to allow relegation. Period. The way the sports world works in North America is different then it is in Europe and elsewhere and that is the reality we all need to learn to accept. Purists such as ourselves wouls like promotion/relegation to happen but the bean counters will never allow it.

[razor787]

I am sure if Garber wanted, he could figure a way to get Pro/Rel in MLS. The teams do have a lot of say, but the league does make the rules, and im sure that there would be some way Garber could make a massive rule change.

[Beach_Red]

If you are charging an expansion fee of $40 million dollars then there is no way those owners are going to allow relegation. Period. The way the sports world works in North America is different then it is in Europe and elsewhere and that is the reality we all need to learn to accept. Purists such as ourselves wouls like promotion/relegation to happen but the bean counters will never allow it.

Does it really work in Europe? It seems like every league has a few teams that are so far ahead of the pack they never fear relegation - so it's something that really only applies to some teams.

It seems like relegation and promotion doesn't work well in leagues with billionaire owners where their teams are immune to it.

[JonO]

But promotion/relegation adds some flavour to those leagues so that there is something interesting to fight for, other than top 4. For some of the smaller clubs, just make it to the premier league is a honour. It's hard to compare to NA where everyone is just a team competing in the same league. And for the record, as much as I would love it, NA isn't ready for it yet

[rocker]

But promotion/relegation adds some flavour to those leagues so that there is something interesting to fight for, other than top 4.

That's probably why North America leagues invented playoffs... to keep the whole season interesting.

[tfcleeds]

I think promotion/relegation is a non-starter anyway as long as MLS remains below 20 teams. What I would like to see is a single league table.

[razor787]

Single league table would be ideal. Even when MLS reaches 20 teams though, pro/rel is years away. It shouldnt even be discussed yet.

[Beach_Red]

But promotion/relegation adds some flavour to those leagues so that there is something interesting to fight for, other than top 4. For some of the smaller clubs, just make it to the premier league is a honour. It's hard to compare to NA where everyone is just a team competing in the same league. And for the record, as much as I would love it, NA isn't ready for it yet

Let's put it this way - if TFC finish any lower than 8th, we expect a change in management. If MLS had relegation, the team would only have to finish in the bottom two for the owners to change management.

I'd rather the team need to finish in the top eight rather than simply avoid the bottom two.

[Stryker]

If Garber puts a team in NY proper then he dooms the Red Bulls to failure.

[JonO]

Let's put it this way - if TFC finish any lower than 8th, we expect a change in management. If MLS had relegation, the team would only have to finish in the bottom two for the owners to change management.

I'd rather the team need to finish in the top eight rather than simply avoid the bottom two.

Can't compare a salary capped league with playoff to a non-salary capped league with relegation. But let's consider why 8th? Because that's where we set our expectations. If we were playing in a single table league with promotion/relegation our expectations should be top of league (or closing in on it) or else sack the manager for sure...

[rocker]

Can't compare a salary capped league with playoff to a non-salary capped league with relegation. But let's consider why 8th? Because that's where we set our expectations. If we were playing in a single table league with promotion/relegation our expectations should be top of league (or closing in on it) or else sack the manager for sure...

I don't think if an EPL teams finishes 9th-10th it necessarily sacks its manager.

Actually, for many EPL teams that aren't the big clubs, finishing 9th-10th is a successful season because they realize they can't be Man U or Chelsea.

I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

[Beach_Red]

Can't compare a salary capped league with playoff to a non-salary capped league with relegation. But let's consider why 8th? Because that's where we set our expectations. If we were playing in a single table league with promotion/relegation our expectations should be top of league (or closing in on it) or else sack the manager for sure...

Should be, sure. Our expectations should be to win championships.

I guess I'm just a little surprised in a city that can't get any of its teams in any sports into the playoffs we're talking about making an even-lower-down-the-standings position the cut-off for success. Okay, we're not making it the cut-off for success, but I can too easily see the press conference where our management "guarantees" the team won't be relegated.

[razor787]

I don't think if an EPL teams finishes 9th-10th it necessarily sacks its manager.

Actually, for many EPL teams that aren't the big clubs, finishing 9th-10th is a successful season because they realize they can't be Man U or Chelsea.

I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

what i believe he was saying, is that in our situation, coming in 8th means we miss the MLS playoffs. Mo didnt do his job, and he gets fired. In a Pro/Rel system, if we come in 8th, we avoided relegation, and did decently, so Mo gets possibly gets a contract extension.

[mr k]

I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

That's because not being relegated in the EPL means being able to generate larger revenues while most teams will need to sell off players if relegated unless owner is willing take losses and bet on coming back to the top tier in the next yr.

In many respects, for me, the relegation battles and Championship league playoffs are some of the most exciting action to watch. The emotions being displayed by the supporters and the players are the rawest type in any sport I have seen because it is a matter of black & white, life & death - there is very little grey.

While in North American, it is a pussified socialist system that rewards failure. The rest of the world probably thinks its funny that a team celebrates finishing last in North America because they get a juicy draft pick.

[Beach_Red]

what i believe he was saying, is that in our situation, coming in 8th means we miss the MLS playoffs. Mo didnt do his job, and he gets fired. In a Pro/Rel system, if we come in 8th, we avoided relegation, and did decently, so Mo gets possibly gets a contract extension.

Yeah, that's it. Well, if we finish 9th, really. Then we miss the playoffs and we expect management changes. But in a relegation system 9th would be considered successful and yeah, these guys would probably extend his contract.

And like Rocker says, it's hard to imagine NFL fans being happy if their team finishes 17th.

[Darlofletch]

I don't think if an EPL teams finishes 9th-10th it necessarily sacks its manager.

Actually, for many EPL teams that aren't the big clubs, finishing 9th-10th is a successful season because they realize they can't be Man U or Chelsea.

I also find it funny when English fans celebrate avoiding relegation. Nobody in MLS celebrates finishing 4th from the bottom.

really? you don't see why a supporter would be happy to be playing in the premiership rather than the championship the following season? or in league two rather than the blue square fucking premier league?

Obviously later you reflect on the season and you recognise it wasn't a good one, and that things need to be improved, but if you're in a relegation battle, and you win it, then that's something to celebrate.

Nobody in MLS celebrates because there's absolutely no difference between finishing dead last and 4th last, aside from a worse draft pick.

[JonO]

Yeah, that's it. Well, if we finish 9th, really. Then we miss the playoffs and we expect management changes. But in a relegation system 9th would be considered successful and yeah, these guys would probably extend his contract.

And like Rocker says, it's hard to imagine NFL fans being happy if their team finishes 17th.

I'll try one more time and then we'll agree to disagree Finishing 4th last, in the EPL for example, may be quite a feat given the funds/players available to a team. In MLS, teams have the same funds and ALL teams should be able to compete with each other. That is the goal of the parity model. So, finishing 4th or 5th last for a team that was recently promoted is a big deal. The same finish in MLS means nothing...

[rocker]

really? you don't see why a supporter would be happy to be playing in the premiership rather than the championship the following season? or in league two rather than the blue square fucking premier league?

They were already in the premiership. They finished 17th. It's absurd to celebrate that. Absurd.

I thought the whole point of promotion and relegation was to strive to be the best? But you're celebrating being one of the worst in the league after already being in the league.

Nobody should celebrate being one of the worst in the league.

Funny how this promotion and relegation thing actually celebrates being shitty.

"WE'RE NOT THE WORST!!!!! LET'S DRINK TO THAT!!!"

[tfcleeds]

^I can guarantee you Blackpool fans will be over the moon if they finish in 17th this year.

[rocker]

^I can guarantee you Blackpool fans will be over the moon if they finish in 17th this year.

I'm sure they will. Isn't it funny how promotion and relegation makes people crazy in the celebration of mediocrity??

[Mikey]

LOL...Can't see ML$E giving up the hope of charging moola for playoff games in exchange for potentially trying to justify a 15% season ticket price hike in the face of relegation....hahaha.