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  1. #1
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    Default We Need to Re-Think What a 'DP' Is

    I know many will disagree with me (just try to keep the discussion civil).

    I'm getting a little annoyed with the constant criticism levelled at JDG. To my eye, he has without a doubt been one of our best players so far this season (of course he's had bad moments here and there, but I'm talking overall). We're a better team with him on the field, and to me, that's all that matters.

    But so many people are saying things like "He's not good enough for a DP," or "as a DP, he should be doing better." But if you stop to think about it, what does that really mean? How does one rate the worthiness of a DP (other than goal-rate for a striker)? Especially JDG -- he's a holding/distributing midfielder . . . do you have to break down his every move -- how many balls he wins, how many passes he completes -- and decide what ratio you think is acceptable? That would obviously be a bit ridiculous.

    So here's my proposal:

    A DP should be considered a success if he's the best player available to you at that position.

    We cannot realistically sign a Michael Essien or a Michael Ballack, therefore, JDG should not be compared to or held up to that sort of standard. JDG is by far the best player available to us at that position, and I think we're lucky to have him. It's not his job to score goals, so he should never be judged by that. And he's not going to complete 100% of his passes, so just because he misses one or two, people shouldn't jump all over him. But if you actually look at the way we pass the ball around with him on the field as opposed to when he isn't, you'll see we're definitely not as good a team without him.

    Another point: with three DP slots now available to each club, we have to stop thinking of the DP as a 'monolithic' thing. We definitely need to allow for more variety in our thinking. For example, you can have DPs like:

    -- A defensive-minded player, who has had experience in Europe (or wherever), whom you need to pay more because of that experience, but not millions, so you sign him as a DP for around $800k. He provides good, solid defending, but he's no Ashley Cole (but you can't expect him to be), but he does what you want him to.

    -- A guy like JDG, whom you want for many reasons (the exp, plus great ball skills, plus Canadian) etc, and you pay him around 1.5 mil. His worthiness is a combination of what he brings on the field plus some marketing stuff plus other intangibles.

    -- Thierry Henry, David Beckham etc.

    People shouldn't complain that JDG isn't one of that third category, and people shouldn't complain about how much a DP gets paid, because, at the end of the day, all that should matter to the supporters is how much it counts against the cap; everything above that -- whether it's an extra 400k or an extra 2 mil -- is the FO's money, and doesn't affect us in the least. So we should never say 'he's not earning that 1.5 mil.' All we need to care about is, 'is he earning the 400k against the cap?'

    I would argue that so far, JDG is, and will continue to do so more and more in the coming years once we get those few other players we need to truly be a contending team.
    Last edited by James17930; 07-02-2010 at 07:32 AM.

  2. #2
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    without going into value of DP debate, JDG is not even the best DM in the league. Shalrie Joseph is. even Osvaldo Alonso is better than JDG
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    JDG is fantastic but he needs some help. We need another DP, an out-and-out striker, like an Inzaghi.

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    I think JDG is a fantastic player for us. Anyone who doesn't see that he is head and shoulders above TFC and MLS is clearly blind.

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    he's not worth the DP money or slot, he really isn't.
    no need to re-think anything.

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    Does anyone else support the idea of using our third DP slot strategically, giving DeRo some extra dosh and lowering the cap hit that he makes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DreFuss View Post
    Does anyone else support the idea of using our third DP slot strategically, giving DeRo some extra dosh and lowering the cap hit that he makes?
    Yes -- but we'd need a second DP first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtfcfan View Post
    I think JDG is a fantastic player for us. Anyone who doesn't see that he is head and shoulders above TFC and MLS is clearly blind.
    Fantastic player - yup....

    But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

    Carts...
    "...Money wasn't tight, but it like, it wasn't right..."


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    I kinda see this as the prototype for drinking the koolaid. We have to change our outlook on dp's to match the level that our dp is playing at. Why dont we, instead, stop making excuses for our players and the level of mediocrity we see on a regular basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McCartney View Post
    Fantastic player - yup....

    But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

    Carts...
    I get what you're saying, but I don't think your logic is fully sound. He had stated he wanted to stay in Spain, but couldn't get any offers in Spain; but, we don't know how many offers he got from elsewhere in Europe that he turned down. Who knows -- maybe lots of clubs were interested but he didn't want to play there or they didn't offer him enough money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McCartney View Post
    Fantastic player - yup....

    But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

    Carts...

    Firstly, JDG hasn't been playing his normal CDM role for our team. Secondly, when most of the players around you are "MLS calibre" what do you expect the guy to do? He is a CDM not a goal scorer. Third, umm... did you forget that he played in Spain for many years and he played quite well there?

    Everyone LOVES DeRo and thinks he's the greatest player ever. Ya, he is good for MLS, but JDG is a better overall player than DeRo. Which is why no one outside of the MLS wants DeRo. DeRo just pots a goal here or there which is why everyone loves him. But even just looking at last game, JDG was better than DeRo.

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    I agreed with Toronto FC, JDG is a CDM not a goal scorer, just look at the amount of goals scored on us last year compared to this year.

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    I dont think he should be getting the DP money...Dero should, and every week it's the same.

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    Bigger issue for me is whether we add a second DP and the impact that has on De Rosario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T0R0NT0 FC View Post
    Firstly, JDG hasn't been playing his normal CDM role for our team. Secondly, when most of the players around you are "MLS calibre" what do you expect the guy to do? He is a CDM not a goal scorer. Third, umm... did you forget that he played in Spain for many years and he played quite well there?

    Everyone LOVES DeRo and thinks he's the greatest player ever. Ya, he is good for MLS, but JDG is a better overall player than DeRo. Which is why no one outside of the MLS wants DeRo. DeRo just pots a goal here or there which is why everyone loves him. But even just looking at last game, JDG was better than DeRo.
    I don't know why you quoted me and go on the 'not scoring goals' rant, as I know he's a CDM, and I don't expect him to score... So basically WTF? to that...

    Second, I responded to a guy who said that anyone who doesn't see he is clearly above the MLS is blind - well, there are 1000's of blind manager b/c 1000's of teams in higher leagues didn't offer him a spot...

    Third, I clearly said he's a fantastic player - which he is...

    I will say this. GOOD players play as well as the teammates around them. GREAT players make the players around them better and shine. At times we see this from JDG, I wish it was all the time - but that is no easy task...

    He's working hard, his effort and passion are there this year - we're allowing less goals and are a better club, and he is part of the reason for that...

    Carts...
    "...Money wasn't tight, but it like, it wasn't right..."


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    Quote Originally Posted by H Bomb View Post
    I kinda see this as the prototype for drinking the koolaid. We have to change our outlook on dp's to match the level that our dp is playing at. Why dont we, instead, stop making excuses for our players and the level of mediocrity we see on a regular basis.

    I never said that. What I said was, our DP is a 'mid-level' DP. Whether we should go out and try to get a Henry-type superstar is another debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McCartney View Post
    I don't know why you quoted me and go on the 'not scoring goals' rant, as I know he's a CDM, and I don't expect him to score... So basically WTF? to that...

    Second, I responded to a guy who said that anyone who doesn't see he is clearly above the MLS is blind - well, there are 1000's of blind manager b/c 1000's of teams in higher leagues didn't offer him a spot...

    Third, I clearly said he's a fantastic player - which he is...

    I will say this. GOOD players play as well as the teammates around them. GREAT players make the players around them better and shine. At times we see this from JDG, I wish it was all the time - but that is no easy task...

    He's working hard, his effort and passion are there this year - we're allowing less goals and are a better club, and he is part of the reason for that...

    Carts...
    Hmm... maybe I jumped into the conversation without reading more than a few posts. My bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    I dont think he should be getting the DP money...Dero should, and every week it's the same.

    DeRo is an MLS level good player, JDG is an any league good player. That is why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I don't think your logic is fully sound. He had stated he wanted to stay in Spain, but couldn't get any offers in Spain; but, we don't know how many offers he got from elsewhere in Europe that he turned down. Who knows -- maybe lots of clubs were interested but he didn't want to play there or they didn't offer him enough money.
    People also forget WHY JDG wasn't resigned.

    2 main reasons.
    1- He spoke out against Deportive because of unpaid wages. Rumours were that it was in the $1 million range. Or maybe €1 million? In any case not exactly pocket change.
    2- He doesn't have an EU passport. Teams have only so many international slots.

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    Everyone knows you need 2 dudes for a true DP.

    /thread

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    I haven't read all the posts in this thread but after watching last night's game, I am completely confident that my criticism for JDG for the majority of the games this season were completely valid. To the people who constantly keep on saying that he has been playing excellent all season, I really do not know what games you guys are watching. He played very well last night (until he was sent off) ... there was a massive difference between how he played last night and how he plays usually.

    He was putting in a heck a lot of effort. His movement off the ball was excellent. He was stringing together some tremendous passes without giving the ball away cheaply. He was winning balls quite competently on defence. In short, he was playing exactly how we all expected he would play all season. It is quite sad that he only played like this 3-4 times. He should be doing that game in, game out.

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    If JDG can play the rest of the season the way he played last night prior to being sent off, I have no issues with him earning a DP salary...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    without going into value of DP debate, JDG is not even the best DM in the league. Shalrie Joseph is. even Osvaldo Alonso is better than JDG
    Uh, you evidently haven't watched either Joseph or Alonso this season, as they're both having absolutely crap seasons (although Joseph's got a reason.)

    Not disagreeing necessarily that Joseph's the league's best Yo, but DeGuzman is a class above Alonso, day in and out.

    Is he the best we could get at that position? Probably, yeah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler View Post
    I haven't read all the posts in this thread but after watching last night's game, I am completely confident that my criticism for JDG for the majority of the games this season were completely valid. To the people who constantly keep on saying that he has been playing excellent all season, I really do not know what games you guys are watching. He played very well last night (until he was sent off) ... there was a massive difference between how he played last night and how he plays usually.

    He was putting in a heck a lot of effort. His movement off the ball was excellent. He was stringing together some tremendous passes without giving the ball away cheaply. He was winning balls quite competently on defence. In short, he was playing exactly how we all expected he would play all season. It is quite sad that he only played like this 3-4 times. He should be doing that game in, game out.
    Well, he is basically over his hamstring injury which, pardon the pun, likely hamstrung his ability to go all out for us in the last few games.

    I think he is the team's best player.

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    Plus -- people also have to remember that JDG has still only played less than 20 games in this league.

    I mean, he's still in the process of getting truly warmed up to MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Uh, you evidently haven't watched either Joseph or Alonso this season, as they're both having absolutely crap seasons (although Joseph's got a reason.)
    Joseph's reason is that he had a joint and got caught.

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    James, your point will never fly in a salary capped league. If you aren't pulling your own weight (weight is relative to your salary compared to how you perform on the field) then you will always be criticized. There's nothing wrong with that. You can't expect to make a large % of a team's salary and not be criticized when you are consistently out played by guys making peanuts.

    Dero
    Nana
    Cann
    Frei

    Are all much more important players to this team then JDG is. We've played quite well with JDG off the pitch but I'd be scared to see how we'd play with a missing Cann or Nana. Oh wait, rewind to the beginning of the season. Don't think I need to say any more.

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    ^Okay, that's a fair point, but the salary cap keeps going up, while the DP cap hit stays the same. Also, as long as JDG's cap hit doesn't directly prevent us from signing other players, then this shouldn't be an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McCartney View Post
    Fantastic player - yup....

    But clearly there's 1000's of blind managers all around the world who didn't offer him a spot in all these higher leagues...

    Carts...
    So Carts, are you saying that the only reason we have any players at all is that every other manager in the world rejected all of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by James17930 View Post
    ^Okay, that's a fair point, but the salary cap keeps going up, while the DP cap hit stays the same. Also, as long as JDG's cap hit doesn't directly prevent us from signing other players, then this shouldn't be an issue.
    Actually the cap hit for a DP was droped from $430,000 to $330,000 in the new CBA. So teams can have 3 DP salaries for about $1 million towards the cap.
    Last edited by TFC 420; 07-02-2010 at 02:05 PM.

 

 

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