The ref and assistants were very inconsistent yesterday. And they often missed obvious calls on plays that occurred right in front of their eyes. Thankfully none affected the overall score since TFC made sure of that!
The ref and assistants were very inconsistent yesterday. And they often missed obvious calls on plays that occurred right in front of their eyes. Thankfully none affected the overall score since TFC made sure of that!
I think the rating system needs to be clarified a little bit. Are we rating players based on our expectations because of their reputation or are we rating them based on what they contributed in the match not making judgements based on how much they are paid or their career status.Originally Posted by Pachuco
Dub, your description of JDG today is a good one. I don't disagree with anything you said here. I'm not sure how your rating of an 8 (second highest rating) is reflective of this though. I'm personally extra hard on JDG because at the end of the day he really should be the one grabbing this team by the balls and I don't see that from him.
I also think Labrocca had a really really good game (forget the goal cause I don't even count that for him) but he was really all over the place and making himself available to provide a solid link in the midfield therefore I have to think Labrocca deserves a better rating then JDG on this day.
If the rating is purely based on what they do on the field, regardless of pay scale etc then I really do not see how you can possibly make the argument that Labrocca played better the JDG.
Did JDG give the ball away unneeded on a couple possessions...yes. But there are countless times where he is swarmed by 2-3 players and calmly just turns, controlled and makes a pass out of danger. This type of play is something that no body else on our team can do with consistency (accept maybe DeRo but in a more attacking role with less chance of punishment) and something that is so easily overlooked and undervalued. Labrocca had a good game, but JDG played better then him. Defensively he got beat a couple times but at he also pressured the ball all game long forcing opponents to either turn over the ball or make negative (i.e non offensive) passes. This was probably JDG second best game as a red, he was constantly involved in the play. It is becoming obvious that he is adapting to the style of play of MLS and that his teammates are also adapting to playing around him.
JDG does all the little things that can easily be overlooked but are so so vital to the game. If you are looking for someone to make highlight reel plays and you are going to judge him based on his ability to do this then you are way off base with your analysis of JDG.
One thing I noticed is Barrett really needs to stop moaning to the ref. You can see the ref had it in for us, and it started after a couple of chirps from Barrett. It doesn't help our team at all, he needs to keep his head up and get on with the game. A couple times he actually stopped playing while complaining and let the opponent go by him.
Look at Cann on the other hand. Even when he gets a bad call against him, he just gets back into position and gets on with the game. Barret could learn something from him.
Nope, not at all. 2 games ago JDG had his best game as a red and I was one of the first to be happy for him and commented on it. Nobody wants him to succeed more then me. And I also don't have a hate on for JDG. He's exactly the type of player I love to watch. Look the Mighty situation with Dero was obviously a personal hate for whatever reason. But I'm not the only one saying JDG isn't performing. Even if you look at the rating from Lucky, he puts JDG somwhere closer to where I feel he should be. I might give him a .5 less then him but that's splitting hairs. He certainly wasn't one of our best players on the field yesterday. I expect our DP to BE THE BEST without a doubt. You know, kinda like Dero does every game.
And TFC4LIFE, I know very well where JDG plays, and what types of plays he should be making. No I don't expect highlight reals. I expect hard tackles and good ball distribution. There was one attempted tackle yesterday from JDG that reminded me of a house league player. he does that once a game. On top of that his ball distribution hasn't been very good, most people have admitted that, they would just rather blame all the players around him for not moving then himself.
I know I look like I have an agenda v JDG, but the truth is I'm extra hard on him, as we all should be. He's making way too much money to see mediocre performances from him day in and out.
JDG performance yesterday was mediocre? I'm not one for name calling, but you are ridiculous man.
People look at JDG two ways: either its roses or nails...
He can do nothing, and people will say he's great...
He can play awesome, and people will say he was mediocre or poor...
I fall in that category too - since he's our DP and I expect a lot...
So, I'll fall on the view of my father - who was a professional footballer in Ireland & England (none of the big clubs) before coming to Canada...
My dads quote: "...that De Guzman, either he's having an off day or robbing your club blind, he's not worth millions..."
My dad is smart enough to know that people have bad outings etc, and yesterday JDG had one of those... He was not excellent, he was not DP worthy, he was "just another player on the pitch"...
He can play much better - he has played much better...
But yesterday, he was not the best player, 2nd best, 3rd best, 4th best etc...
If he name was Chad Barret - people would be screaming for him to be cut...
Its shocking that a player, who hasn't "earned his keep" yet, is given every chance in the book from supporters...
Against Seattle, he was our top player on the pitch... Collecting, keeping, distributing the ball... He was a DP player who controlled the match and made it our game...
Yesterday, he wasn't close to that...
But that happens... Not everyone is great every game... But people need to call a spade a spade when he does play "average" (not poorly, he wasn't poor) and say he played average... The good thing is, average for him still means he's impacting the game - but he wasn't the top, or 2nd best etc yesterday...
Carts...
"...Money wasn't tight, but it like, it wasn't right..."
Yeah well, you're a Habs fan.
That's about as insightfull as your post isn't it?
Thought DeGuzman had a good game, not a great game.
Frei - 7.5
Usanov - 5.5 (his positioning could have killed us a few times but their passing was shit.)
Attakora - 6
Cann - 7
Gargan - 5
Peterson - 6
Labrocca - 7
Sanyang - 6.5
DeGuzman - 6.5
DeRosario - 7.5
Barrett - 8
White - 8
Saric - 6.5
Hscanovic - 6
This is very well put. To me it's all about perspective. If JDG took a pay cut next year and was making somewhere around 300K-350K then I may not be so hard on him. The fact of the matter is right now he's tying up a very important DP spot and he ain't giving us much more then we could get for that kind of money. I get why Mo had to overpay him in order to get him here in Toronto, but I won't understand if after 2 years he actually signs as a DP again unless he significantly improves his game. I believe his stock has dropped significantly since he played his last game in La liga and he may not have a choice but to take a pay cut.
I still don't think we have seen what De Guzman is capable of.
So far, I don't think he is earning his full wage.
I admit, he does get double and triple teamed by opposition, and that can cause problems,
But I think he should be better than what we have seen so far.
Don't get me wrong, I like him as a player,
But considering what he is paid, he should be more dominant.
maybe we should give JDG some time.
time to get used to the team...style of play.... the league.
you know ...its still new to him....10 pre-season games and 8 in season games isnt nearly enough time for our highest paid player to start playing his best.
Where you even at the game yesterday? JDG played well, what game were you watching? He did the job that a defensive midfielder is supposed to do, he broke up plays, had the midfield and defense organized and distributed the ball very well. You do know that's his role don't you?
If you have a problem spending that kind of money on a defensive player then fine I can see that argument, but saying things like he's mediocre, and dissappointing in his play, is completely asssanine. Over the last 4 or 5 games him and dero have been our best players. Yesterday he had at least 50 touches of the ball, of course some of his passes aren't going to be completed, but the majority were, with many being high risk or lower percentage passes. If we get 3 or 4 goals out of him this year I'll be happy, but if you're expecting more than that you have little or no undersatnding of his role on the field. What do you think his role out there is?
If you want DP money to be spent on a striker and not on a DMF ok I get it. TFC is paying him fair market value for a player of his pedigree. He had many offers to play in europe for similar money.
I'm a habs fan what's that got to do with it? You must be a real scholar to make a comment like that.
Last edited by habstfc; 05-09-2010 at 05:01 PM.
Nope, wasn't at the game. I like making comments about games I don't watch for fun. Pretty sure JDG is a striker isn't he? I don't get why he isn't scoring goals. I expected him to lead the golden boot by now. I don't understand where he was on the Chicago goal either. The ball clearly beat Frei, but JDG should've been standing behind Frei. I blame that goal on him. Dero is scoring more goals then JDG, so Dero surely is worth alot more. Barrett actually has more goals then JDG this year, therefore Barrett should be making more money.
Smart ass posts get smart ass replies.
for one of the first time's ever, I found your ratings LS a little off today, i really think JDG's number should be closer to a 7 if not a 7.5. Maybe being at the game had a difference, but the number of times i saw him twist away from his man, catch his man going the wrong way, pure class...I also think he technically gets credit for an assist on Lebrocca's goal (lol)
Barrett only a 7.5 and DeRo a 7, and White a 7, White deserves 2 assists really, the extra one on his own goal, DeRo and his 2 assists the amount of actual good passes he made and other made in those conditions...finally barrett, not only did he score two goals, but he scored them both I believe with his "weak foot"
How are any of my comments considered smart ass. It's obvious you have a problem with JDG no matter how he plays. Yesterday he played well, I don't know how you could say any different, not just you but anyone. Did he make a few errant passes and make some errors, sure he did, but so did everyone if you want to get picky. You say things like if he made less money you wouldn't be so hard on him. What does his salary have to do with anything, either he did his job out there yesterday or he didn't. I say he did.
So, I love proving smart assess wrong. You may want to try a different angle next time. Here's my comments from the Seattle game. Look up the quote in the post game if you don't believe me and don't trust I didn't edit the post. Oh, for the 100th time, it's not only me saying he isn't playing up to par, therefore, did you ever think that maybe your love for JDG is swaying your opinion of how he's performing on the field?
Your posts are so ludicrous you at one point say JDG has been our best player for the last 5 games (and Dero). What? You mean the same game he lost for us by jumping out of the wall?
Man, you just don't get it. Even someone like you has to give JDG his dues for the seattle game. You would have little credibility on these threads if you didn't at least acknowledge the seattle game. I'm not picking you specifically, you're not the only one with an irrational hate-on for JDG. I'm going to give you some advice. You need to pick your spots if you want to criticize not only JDG, but any tfc player, it's best not to do it after a 4-1 win, where every player played a good solid game. I'm not the only one saying he had a good game yesterday, just look at this entire thread. I am just the only one calling you out on your ridiculous comments. He is mediocre game in and game out. Come on, get a grip. Even in the colorado game where he jumped out of the wall, if you watched that game he had total control of the midfield for a great deal of the game before his blunder. I am standing by my comments about him being our best player the last 5 games along with dero. I'm not saying he was one of our best 2 every game but on average certainly, yes.
Last edited by habstfc; 05-10-2010 at 12:08 AM.
I think he's been fucking great. He's had plenty of giveaways and a few poor passes but I'd be interested to see a statistical analysis (but of course too lazy to do it myself) to compare it to players we've had in a similar role. Trying to look at it objectively, I'm confident he has been a lot better than anything we've ever known. I'm thinking of watching Edu every time he tried to carry the ball a few yards and losing it, or making a shit pass, or squandering the ball on a long shot to row Z whenever he could. I'm also thinking of Robinson who was a great midfield destroyer, but a hopelessly safe player who was limited in any attacking capacity. Cronin is a good player but he doesn't provide anywhere near the vision or skill at drawing opposition attention that de Guzman does. Less is expected of him.
If he's not worth what he's making that's simply because of the condition of the league. A holding mid was always going to be a questionable choice as a DP. He's the sort of player that I feel could slot in to lower-end premiership midfields and not be out of place, but also the sort of player that isn't going to be an overt world-beater in a lower league like MLS. I am actually of the opinion he was a poor choice of DP solely because of his role, but I am not going to deny that he has been living up to it as well as he can.
I wasn't sold on JDG but I'm sure you could quantitatively see a lot of the great job he does most of the time. He opens up a tremendous amount of space because of the fear he commands in the opposition and they scramble to prevent him from being too effective. We haven't done the best job of using it but it's definitely there. Every time he gets the ball in midfield he gets hit with a swarm who rush to close him down.
The only weakness I see in JDG's play (apart from the one instance in jumping out of the wall) is that he is still adjusting to the style of play of the team and the league (read "the lower-quality players who don't anticipate passes into space"). He is by far one of the best DMs in MLS and an upgrade over Robbo with just a slightly bigger cap hit. It's only the cap hit that counts, and I don't care how many millions MLSE pays out of their own coffers above the cap. Also with up to 3 DPs being allowed, he won't affect TFC's future chances of landing a DP-striker, should the cap be properly managed from here on in.
From De Vos' article:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/jason...oronto-fc.htmlDe Guzman is not a goal scoring midfielder, but he is superb at keeping possession under pressure. Time and time again he demonstrated his ability to wriggle out of sticky situations with the ball at his feet.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-10-2010 at 07:58 AM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Enough said.
"I’m a little confused/annoyed by Saric seeing the pitch over Cronin, I do wonder what the story is there. I’m not implying anything sinister so don’t start rumours but I think Cronin has more to offer."
Yeah me too....Preki obviously has some kinda HATE-ON for Cronin...I doubt it's effort, since Cronin was one of the hardest workers last year, and he's got FAR MORE talent than Sanyang or Saric...who knows...
Yes, that's it.
Absolutely!
Thank You for the great post.
Dear Pachuco, please read. Your unwarranted bashing of JDG is a blow to your Football IQ.
I can totally understand if JDG knocked out or beat one of your countries in games past or maybe JDG played for Deportivo and that was your hated team...Maybe you really really didn't want a DM for DP....what ever the case may be....understand that he is still adjusting, he is the number one or two DM in the MLS, and most importantly HE LOVES THIS CITY AND THIS TEAM!
This guy Scares me when he's on the field
I'm more inclined to bump him up to a 7. the reason being is that our back line does seem more together since he's been here. Not sure if that's more Preki than him, but it's a huge difference than when Garcia is on. Also, he's kinda wall like back there, is really tough on players off the ball. Yes he made a mistake or two, but nothing game threatening and nothing that any other CB would have done IMO.
This is a tough one for me. He is attracting more player to himself and he is getting the ball out of those situations more often than not. better than we've ever had in this position, but i wonder if his DP status is clouding our view of him. If he were Carl Robinson, we'd be giving him the POTY award. But cause he's a DP, we're expecting more.
I'm not saying he is a POTY candidate, but he is effective in what he does. 6.5 is right, but i wonder if he were someone else, what we would give him?
This is unfortunately pretty much what the case may be. I'm not sure dropping him THAT far in pay is necessary, but I don't believe he's justified his price tag at this point. The season is long, though.
And Carts pretty much was bang on in what I would have said in terms of JDG's performance to date. He's had some good games, great ones even, but he's also had some fairly mediocre or even bad ones. If the point of bringing in a DP player is to ensure that you have at least one player on the pitch that is playing regularly well above average for his position, then JDG as of yet has not supplied that. He's out there doing his job, but in terms of changing the game De Ro has earned more of JDG's paycheck than JDG has. EDIT: And no, I'm not just refering to goals. I know that JDG is not there to score goals.
JDG and the locker room in general is gonna have to be careful because I doubt DeRo is the kind of person to not remind him of that.
Let's hope they all keep their wallets in their jackets and just play football.
Well, while I understand pay influences perception, his salary is not really "tying up" a DP spot (in other words, it's not like his slot could go to someone better but can't since we have him). We have 2 other possible DP slots available. Until we use up both of those, and he's not seen as giving value for the 1st slot, then he's not tying up a slot.
Second, his cap hit is about $335 now, I believe, under the new CBA. So if he was NOT a DP and was paid 300K-350K, he'd be taking up about the same amount of cap room as he is taking up now.
The rest of his paycheque is not really our concern, since MLSE pays for it.
So people probably shouldn't use his TOTAL salary as a gauge or his use of the 1 of 3 DP slots. Instead, judge him at $335K, as right now that's all that really matters in the grand scheme of things (the rest of his salary is irrelevent + there are still more DP slots). What does 335K get you around the league? And does that 335K on the cap prevent signing another DP (do we have the next 335K?)?
Last edited by rocker; 05-10-2010 at 11:42 AM.
Lucky, I would point out with respect to Usanov that the time he ran over McBride McBride was actually setting a pick on him. I think he actually got called for a foul on it too (McBride). Might have been harder to see at the game, but on the TV they showed a couple of replays and it was quite clear that McBride knew Usanov was coming and stepped in front of him like a second before getting hit. I would have been livid if a penalty had been called.
I didn't see any problems with the assistants.
As for Terry Vaughn, I can't figure him out. Technically, he's an excellent referee, his positioning, man management etc is spot on. However, his foul-recognition is terrible. It's almost like having a basketball referee do a soccer game. To me he's like the officiating equivalent of Marvel Wynne - has some great attributes, but doesn't understand the game at all.
Oh well, what do you do - these are the best officials in North America, so until better referees come along, we're stuck with these guys.
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