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  1. #61
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    the strike announcement is a necessary evil really....the league won't do anything about it otherwise. From what I understand, it's normal procedure.

    This is a good thing....maybe now the league will really get serious and work this shit out in time....at least an agreement in principle.

  2. #62
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    I think the limited free agency is an absoute load of rubbish. They have a hard cap. NFL and NHL can have full free agency and still manage to fit the players they need under the cap. Yeah sure some teams make bad contracts, but that is part of the competition. Which GM is the smartest at building a team.

    What the MLS is saying is we don't trust the GM's in the league to make sensible contracts so we are going to limit what the players can do, to make sure that the GM's can't mess up too badly.

  3. #63
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    what i don't get is how the bosman ruling does not apply to the MLS

    yes i understand it is a European ruling for the European union countries, but

    lets say I am a GM plant worker and I get laid off. There is nothing stopping me from starting to work for Honda...does the MLS have legal grounds? (they did fight this before didn't they and won?)

    this is dumb

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by S_D View Post
    I think the limited free agency is an absoute load of rubbish. They have a hard cap. NFL and NHL can have full free agency and still manage to fit the players they need under the cap. Yeah sure some teams make bad contracts, but that is part of the competition. Which GM is the smartest at building a team.

    What the MLS is saying is we don't trust the GM's in the league to make sensible contracts so we are going to limit what the players can do, to make sure that the GM's can't mess up too badly.
    Absolute free agency just can't happen in single entity -- the players don't have independent teams to use to create a bidding war. MLS always issues the contracts so they could never trust MLS to allow the franchises to "bid" on players. Even if MLS came up with some bidding system, the actual amount of $$$ teams have left to spend would be unknown to the players. As well, a player "offered" 50K by Chicago and 40K by NYRB wouldn't know if the 50K was really the highest teams were capable of offering. MLS could just fudge the bids....... so no absolute free agency can exist.

    If the players are arguing MLS should cease to be single entity, then they are foolish and will never win. Usually in negotiations you go for incremental gains. Changing the league from single entity to an old fashioned independent team system would not be negotiable in the second contract ever between the two sides. I'm not even sure I agree that it would ever be negotiable, because MLS owns the trademarks of the teams, I believe. The breakup of this would be something very difficult and would be something only the owners could decide -- not the players who don't own the teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by koryo
    When it gets down it, the players are only asking for a decent living wage for its young, a bit of security for its old and the right to work for all.
    What are the positions of the players union on salaries? I have no seen any details yet. For all we know, the players may not be asking for anything new on salaries (MLS may have capitulated on the salary floor). I'm frustrated that this "we won't negotiate in the public" rule means no info is released for fans to make a decision on who to side with. For example, if the players were saying "we want the floor set at 100K" then I'd think they're probably crazy. But even Taylor Twellman said this negotiation has not been about money but rights.
    Last edited by rocker; 03-12-2010 at 05:48 PM.

  5. #65
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    I just found a blog entry from Buzz at 3rd degree that provides some details I'm looking for... also makes an interesting case about MLS and its strike position:

    http://www.3rddegree.net/2010/03/12/...#comment-27517

  6. #66
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    Unions can piss off. I have worked for unionized companies and they are quick to take your dues but when you need them in your corner they are never there. Unions have no place in sports in my opinion. These Athletes make enough as it is, but they have to use thier unions to strong arm more cash. Unions are a tool of greed.

  7. #67
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    ^ Tools of greed, indeed. Completely unlike the lovable upstanding owners who operate their clubs out of the goodness of their hearts and the love of the sport in it's purest form.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    ^ Tools of greed, indeed. Completely unlike the lovable upstanding owners who operate their clubs out of the goodness of their hearts and the love of the sport in it's purest form.
    Not saying the owners are any better....but ticket sales do go up when player salaries go up.

  9. #69
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    ^ And ticket sales go up when they stay level as well.

    Look, I know what you're getting at and I agree that as a whole, professional athletes are generally well-compensated and looked-after by their various unions and trade associations. In the case of MLS, however, things are much different. Look at the league minimum salary - it's what? 33,000 35,000? That's peanuts! And if I recall correctly, developmental players only get 13,000 in compensation - though I'll admit their status is more complicated than other players. But it's not even that. There are legitimate security concerns stemming from the fact that teams can't charter flights to and from games. The grievances between the players and league isn't as straightforward as simple compensation.

    Personally, if I'm to take sides in this issue, I'd take the position of the players over that of the owners.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  10. #70
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    either way a strike could be devastating to an already fragile league.

  11. #71
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    ^ For sure. Yeah, we're all basically fucked if there's no season.

    And think about what could happen with Vancouver and Portland? The clubs and their communities have committed a lot of money for their MLS franchises. They must be collectively shitting themselves now.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  12. #72
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    shit I forgot all about that.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    what i don't get is how the bosman ruling does not apply to the MLS

    yes i understand it is a European ruling for the European union countries, but

    lets say I am a GM plant worker and I get laid off. There is nothing stopping me from starting to work for Honda...does the MLS have legal grounds? (they did fight this before didn't they and won?)

    this is dumb
    MLS is a single entity (there is only 1 "club"), and the players work for MLS not the individual clubs. that's why you can't have free agency. MLS spent a lot of money in legal fees and won in court to defend it's single entity status and any hint of the league not being single entity may bring the league into an anti-trust case that could destroy the business model that has been so successful and has drawn in many investors and sponsors. MLSE wouldn't have invested in MLS without single entity for example.

    This is why MLS will not give on free agency, it's not the money that's the issue as the owners have offered offered the players 60 million more already.
    Last edited by troy1982; 03-12-2010 at 07:32 PM.

  14. #74
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    with all due respect this is my viewpoint in the matter so I don't want to get blasted for my opinion.

    I am fully backing the players on the current CBA. I think that the league and entity has more to lose then the players.

    1. I am a fan and will be back when this is all over. No doubt about it.
    2. I am saving money in this years seasons tickets. There a ton of footy to be played in the next 6 months.. world cup, champions league, Uefa,copa libertadores, south american championships. etc etc.
    3. Maybe this is a good way of getting this league the respect it deserves and if that pisses off alot of soccer moms and dad then so be it. All major leagues that strike make a comeback. It will take some time but if you love the sport you make the effort to support it.
    3a . Once and for all we will see which cities really want to support a club in thier backyards and what better way of measuring if the city and ppl support its soccer and the brand. post strike>>> if you build it they will come!.. sorry had to steal that from baseball .
    4 Mls does not want to set a precedence where alot of the major N.A sports leagues have established the same control. Their up to thier knees in poop if they don't come to some arrangement with the players union.
    5. There is more for the league to lose then the players at the moment. Incoming expansion clubs would most likely sue for all the money spent on building thier squads. development, Strategic partnerships with local businesses, etc etc.
    6. A big fat sore in the Mls entity becuase thier chances of seeking support or financial backing from other leagues or soccer entities would go down the drain.
    6a . Foreign players will think twice in signing with the MlS becuase of thier control and restrictions.
    7. Alot of attencion being drawn to the way N.A manages thier soccer league and how the rules are so different to the rest of the soccer world.

    I don't want to see a strike yet in some small way i feel motivated to back the players becuase no one in a profession wants to be controlled by the big brother..

  15. #75
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    Catch me up if this has already been talked about, and if it has here is my two cents on it

    This is what i think should be the cornerstones of the new MLS CBA:
    1. Free Agency within the League and for Transfers into the league
    2. Mutual Transfers out between the league and the individual team (basically keep what they have now)
    3. HIGHER CAP -- improve the leage so the when a USL team does beat an MLS team in a competative match it'll be like the lower ranked NCAA football teams beating Ohio State or Michigan or USC or something similar
    4. Two Designated player spots per team ... the reasoning for this is not to just bring big name to the league but to have team at least take a chance with one of the spots (because I think the reason why some teams haven't used the DP spot yet is because they think anyone other than a "Beckham"-esque player is a gamble they can afford)
    5. League wide player endorsements (have the names of all the teams work together to spread the MLS product and the local teams)

    that is all
    Toronto FC,#CMNT & #CWNT, Scotland, Heart of Midlothian FC, Tottenham Hotspur FC
    "The Harder the Struggle, The Greater the Reward" - @OsoJ92

    AWAY DAYS - CHICAGO August 2017, MONTREAL March 2018

  16. #76
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    I got my tax refund this week, I was going to book my train tickets and hotel room for Montreal next week. Glad I didn't jump the gun on that.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    ^ For sure. Yeah, we're all basically fucked if there's no season.

    And think about what could happen with Vancouver and Portland? The clubs and their communities have committed a lot of money for their MLS franchises. They must be collectively shitting themselves now.

    CashCleaner not necessarily so.. I think if this crap is drawn out too long you might just see the NASL grow up to be the big league entity. I don't believe clubs are bound by any contract to have to stay in the MLS...
    Someone correct me if im wrong.

  18. #78
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    Strike? Meh. It's a World Cup year.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtaguy View Post
    CashCleaner not necessarily so.. I think if this crap is drawn out too long you might just see the NASL grow up to be the big league entity. I don't believe clubs are bound by any contract to have to stay in the MLS...
    Someone correct me if im wrong.
    Well MLS owns 50% of TFC and the other 50% is by MLSE
    Also MLSE owns 6% of MLS.

    for all intent and purpose TFC is MLS and MLS is TFC it's one entity.
    Last edited by troy1982; 03-12-2010 at 09:35 PM.

  20. #80
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    not sure about the 6% part but I believe MLS owns 51%
    Last edited by S_D; 03-12-2010 at 10:21 PM.

  21. #81
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    and doesn't MLS own the trademark of Toronto FC? I know they own some teams trademarks.

  22. #82
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    here is a question:

    Lets use Serioux as an example.

    Just to use extremes, he is out of contract, TFC holds his rights and won't trade him unless someone coughs up a 1st round draft pick. Nobody will pay what TFC wants as they all think he is at most worth a second or third rounder, so he can't work. He is in limbo, and not getting paid by anyone? Surely there is a law against preventing someone from working??

    Now lets say finally TFC relents and trades his rights, but it is 1/2 way through the season. Serioux signs a contract for 100K/year but the club that picks him up only has to pay 1/2 a years of his salary. I am sure any agent worth his salt would try and get the league to pay the other 1/2 of his salary, but would they have to?

    I had an idea about how to push the process to make the team that owns the rights want to move the player as fast as possible. If they want to hold up his rights, they are responsible for paying the player based on his previous year's contract out of their own pockets (MLS still pays the salary, MLS fines the team = to the pay), and to make it sting a bit more, it counts against the team's cap so they get a double whammy.

    Not sure if it would be legal or work within the MLS framework, but damn if you have a team that needs all the cap space it can get (and most do), I am sure you would be willing to move that player a little faster.

  23. #83
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    Meh, the closer you look at the details the less single entity holds up. How does MLS explain the coaching changes within the league if they are a single employer?

    But regardless of the legal arguments behind this we can all agree that from a practical pov it's complete balls. The day this system falls apart will be a good one.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 03-12-2010 at 10:49 PM.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by troy1982 View Post
    Well MLS owns 50% of TFC and the other 50% is by MLSE
    Also MLSE owns 6% of MLS.

    for all intent and purpose TFC is MLS and MLS is TFC it's one entity.
    But say TFC (its financial backers and the people within the organization) decide to walk away and form a new club. Sure they lose the TFC name, but for all intensive purposes they can still compete on any other level.

    At a certain point i don't really care about MLS. Say we were to move to NASL with Vancouver, Montreal, and a few other teams. I understand getting those other guys to move is a big *if* but if the restrictions were kept more reasonable it could be worth it.

    At a certain point it's got to be tempting. You get a real academy, real development pyramid, you get 100% of transfer dollars, you get more freedom over personnel decisions.

  25. #85
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    I hope there is a strike to be honest. Fuck at least I won't have to worry about trying to sell or give away tickets during the World Cup.

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHITEY View Post
    I hope there is a strike to be honest. Fuck at least I won't have to worry about trying to sell or give away tickets during the World Cup.
    or missing the CL Final.
    M.U.F.C.U.M GAMBA OSAKA Toronto FC


  27. #87
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    i dont know but i think we should make a banner and show up on homeopener at gate 1 with the banner saying something about CBA plus strike if the homeopener is a no game going. Stay out there chanting something cause it's alittle fucked up about this

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    But say TFC (its financial backers and the people within the organization) decide to walk away and form a new club. Sure they lose the TFC name, but for all intensive purposes they can still compete on any other level.

    At a certain point i don't really care about MLS. Say we were to move to NASL with Vancouver, Montreal, and a few other teams. I understand getting those other guys to move is a big *if* but if the restrictions were kept more reasonable it could be worth it.

    At a certain point it's got to be tempting. You get a real academy, real development pyramid, you get 100% of transfer dollars, you get more freedom over personnel decisions.
    And if you managed to get Seattle, New York and teams like DC to follow you it would be a better league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigfynn View Post
    And if you managed to get Seattle, New York and teams like DC to follow you it would be a better league.
    DC is the biggest money loser in the league. They would have folded already without single entity.
    Last edited by troy1982; 03-13-2010 at 11:43 PM.

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHITEY View Post
    I hope there is a strike to be honest. Fuck at least I won't have to worry about trying to sell or give away tickets during the World Cup.
    your a good fan of toronto...

 

 

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