It was up for an hour....then gone.Originally Posted by canadian_bhoy
It was up for an hour....then gone.
Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus
Twitter: @RPBPhil
Any interesting comments?
What people are missing is that the lies didn't take place during the contract negociations - when DeRo signed his contract he knew what he was getting and got what he was promised in his contract.Every producer I've ever worked for made promises he couldn't keep, it's why I have an agent and what they get paid for. I don't blame the producers, I don't even listen to them, my agent gets everything in the contract and I don't worry about what's not in it. That's why I know I won't be back for the second season of The Bridge if there is one even though the producer "promised."
Some players talked to TFC and decided not to sign here - that's what they're supposed to do. Every player has an agent, every agent is familiar with the team and who runs it. So once you sign the contract, all I'm asking is that you be a professional about it.
The lies took place before contract negociations. Mo convinced DeRo that if he asked Houston for a trade to Toronto that we'd give him DP money. He was always going to come here at some point in his career, but he came much earlier than expected because of the promise of more money. It was the promise of DP money that put the deal in motion. It wasn't until DeRo requested a trade - effectively burning his bridge with Houston and their fans - and he sat down to work out his contract that he found out the reason why he left Houston - the promise of DP money - wasn't going to be delivered. He got screwed. He couldn't undo the deal the Houston and TFC had agreed upon and was forced to work out the best possible deal that could get, even though he wasn't going to get what he was promised. The raise that he ended up getting did little more than off-set the differences in taxes between Texas/America and Ontario/Canada and other financial losses (like selling a home in a depressed American market).
There's nothing an agent or DeRo or a lawyer or anyone else in charge of due diligence could have done to prevent what happened.
Last edited by CretanBull; 03-08-2010 at 04:48 PM.
Too bad none of us got it saved and uploaded it to youtube...
Carts...
"...Money wasn't tight, but it like, it wasn't right..."
To be honest there was nothing earth shattering or anything we didnt already guess or find out later.
It just highlights the idea that players and coaches probably wont even try to say anything on their way out.
Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus
Twitter: @RPBPhil
You sound like you were in the room. Do you believe that the GM of TFC didn't have to pass any DP contract past the Board of Directors? This is what I mean by producers making promises they can't keep. Any good agent would disregard anything that was said before contract negaotations and never allow a client to do anything that depended on something that was said before negotiations. That's an amateur, rookie mistake. That's what you fire an agent for.
Look every agent knew that TFC had never issued a DP contract and no other team was offering one up for DeRo, a career MLSer who wasn't going anywhere else. What agent would seriously think they could get a DP contract under those circumstances? And from MLSE? What negotiating position would an agent have?
Yes, I know MLS is a bush league, but come on, promises? I'd hate to see how these guys would do negotiating with an NFL GM.......
Five games, actually.
Tampering?
I don't argue that Mo is a problem, but I find this hard to believe (again).
Moderator
JDG entered what was a apparently a thoroughly dysfunctional locker room, after having not played in months (not being in mid-season form), only played five games, and people are writing him off already?
Give me a break.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Moderator
This is a point I repeatedly tried to make in the other thread a month or two ago, about DeRo not liking his contract.
Promising DeRo anything while he was under contract to another team, is tampering. Plain and simple. Secondly, any agent that lets a player move based on promises, is the worst agent in the world. It didn't happen.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
I think De Guzman is a wonderful player, but I just think he fits better in a team with players of equal strength around him. A defensive midfielder is NOT going to change the result of a game. He helps clean up right behind the midfield, sure, but that didn't stop New York from kicking our ass 4-0 in the last training match. So defensively he really doesn't produce much of anything for us. Offensively? Nope - nothing.
So that begs the question: how massive of an improvement is De Guzman in the role of DM over Robinson? And how will this effect our performance as a team in terms of results? And is it worth our DP slot + 600k under the cap (400k to DeGuzman, and 200k to Robinson that we're stuck with if he signs with NYRB).
So far I feel that De Guzman has shown that he is not the fix for our team. Angel? Blanco? Donovan? McBride? Ljungberg? Any of these players would've done wonders for our club - absolutely without a shadow of a doubt. So to me this is just another piece of evidence that a DP slot should be used on an offensive player - period.
Now, having said the above, I know and accept the fact that De Guzman is here to stay. So that's reality. I want De Guzman to be made to feel welcome by all - and we should want him to be happy here as well. We have to make the best of the situation after all. But at the end of the day our troubles are the same as the first 3 seasons: poor defense and attack. We can't rely on DeRo to do all the work AGAIN.
Rightly or wrongly, DeRo has been connected to TFC since the day Toronto was awarded a franchise. Its not like we targetted a random player and held back room negociations and underminded a team's relationship with one of it's players. That underminding process has been happening from day 1 in a very open a public way. DeRo has always said that he'd like to play for TFC "at some point" and TFC have always said that they'd love to have him. When DeRo went to Houston requesting a trade to Toronto they weren't surprised (and according to some reports in Houston, weren't disappointed either). Tampering is only an issue if the team is trying to protect that asset, in this case I think Houston accepted the inevitability that DeRo would end up in Toronto...because everyone had been saying it for 3 years.
The Welsh flag at BMO wouldn't be raised this season then behind the goal! I'll have to bring my own Welsh RPB one instead then....
Thanks Robbo. Best of Luck.
Welsh Branch of the RPB's
I find it hard to believe that DeRo was promised "DP Money".
That could mean $500k, $5 million or anything in between. If he was promised a speciifc dollar figure and didn't get it I'm sure his agent would have screamed bloody murder.
Say what you want about MLSE and Mo but I can't see them screwing over the new face of the franchise for a few hundred grand.
But does that seem at all like the way professionals should do business to you? "Because everyone had been saying it for 3 years?"
It's funny, no one here likes our GM (I just like to be contrary, I really have no feelings one way or the other - if it wasn't him it would be someone else on the exact same level) so it might make some players feel they can negotiate in public because they'll always be the good guy. They can complain about "broken promises" all they want and still be supported.
It realy does look like a dysfunctional team, but plenty of dysfunctional baseball teams have won the World Series (really, practically every one) and plenty of giant assholes have coached teams to Super Bowl victories, so you never know.
But no one in this is looking very professional, frankly.
I've heard essentially the same thing from a wide variety sources - respected journalists, people connected to players, people connected to DeRo, people who work for TFC, people who have spoken to DeRo, people in the media who were told things 'off the record', someone who was in the room before, after and during the Sun TV interview that first (officially) broke the story of a contract issue etc. I'm 100% about one of two things - either things happened the way that I've said or there's an orchestrated campaign by unconnected people to convince people that things happened that way. Incidentally, I know that I'm not the only person here who has been told this.
It was public knowledge that MLSE had authorized Mo to sign a DP. It's also clear that Mo has full controll over the TFC side of things - again its public knowledge that he's the only 'soccer guy' on the MLSE books. If the BOD would have to approve a deal, I'm sure any sort of reasonable DP contract ($1-$2 million?) would be rubber stamped if it was for the guy Mo wanted. All of this is beside the point though, because when it came time to negociate DP status was suddenly off the table.Do you believe that the GM of TFC didn't have to pass any DP contract past the Board of Directors? This is what I mean by producers making promises they can't keep.
But things said before contract negociations were all they had to go on. If DeRo didn't make his move (request a trade) then they couldn't even get to the contract level talks - and thats what this is all about. If DeRo didn't think that coming to Toronto would get him more money then he would have stayed in Houston for a few more years. Mo had to convince DeRo to come when he did, and that convincing involved promising more money.Any good agent would disregard anything that was said before contract negaotations and never allow a client to do anything that depended on something that was said before negotiations. That's an amateur, rookie mistake. That's what you fire an agent for.
Keep in mind that DeRo (rightly or wrongly) felt that he was being under-paid in Houston. Are you saying that when DeRo had an opportunity to potentially double or triple his salary that his agent should have assumed that Mo couldn't deliever and stepped in and prevented the move? A contract at this point wouldn't be legal, they had to stay put or accept Mo at his word. No amount of due diligence would change that.
Its not unreasonable to think that an expansion Toronto based team would place a higher value on a player from Toronto who also happened to be one of the top 5 players in the league. And again, by all accounts, they were acting on what they were being told by TFC. They believed that they were worth that so when someone came around and agreed that they were worth that why wouldn't they pursue it?Look every agent knew that TFC had never issued a DP contract and no other team was offering one up for DeRo, a career MLSer who wasn't going anywhere else. What agent would seriously think they could get a DP contract under those circumstances? And from MLSE? What negotiating position would an agent have?
^Many sports teams are dysfunctional, sure, but it's the pattern in the way that TFC are dysfunctional that is meaningful.
Watching Preki mumble about Robbo, man was that depressing, it was like a repeat of the Cummins interviews about Dichio last September.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I haven't heard anyone say a number that DeRo was promised, but a term as simple as "DP money" (if no amount was promised) would mean - at a bare minimum $100k more a year, and it's not like a team would use its DP slot to sign a player for something like $450k (using the DP slot for the sake of $50k). Realistically, if no money was mentioned (and I don't know if it was or wasn't) and only the term "DP money" was used, DeRo would have been looking at doubling his salary.
But does that seem at all like the way professionals should do business to you? "Because everyone had been saying it for 3 years?"
It's funny, no one here likes our GM (I just like to be contrary
It realy does look like a dysfunctional team, but plenty of dysfunctional baseball teams have won the World Series (really, practically every one) and plenty of giant assholes have coached teams to Super Bowl victories, so you never know.
But no one in this is looking very professional, frankly.
To MLSE, I doubt they even see it as dysfunction. They invested very little money and made a ton. They attribute part of that success to Mo, so he's their man. There was a contract dispute? They don't care...in the end, they got the player that they wanted and are paying him less than they (probably) would have been willing to pay him. Another win for Mo.
So to sum up:
1-Robbo is traded to NYRB for not much and we're still on the hook for some of his salary. According to Preki, Robbo didn't want to be here anymore.
2-It's all Mo's fault
3-Garcia sucks
4-JDG is a waste of DP spot and not worth the money spent on him.
Wow.....some people love Robbo way too much. It's bordering on insanity.
Robbo is gone. He was a nice guy and a good leader but we have MUCH better players at his position.
I don't really like Mo (in fact I rather dislike him as a GM) but it what it is. He's brought in a coach who can hopefully make some sense out of this team.
On that note...watch the Preki interview. I would argue that Preki had no interest in finding a spot for Robbo on this team. If dumping Robbo is good enough for Preki, it's good enough for me.
For those of you who keep saying things like...."you'll see how much we miss Robbo once he's gone"....I say this:
"you're gonna laugh that he ever played that position for us at that salary once JDG gets into full swing".
It's a joke to even consider having Robbo at holding mid at 300k instead of JDG at holding mid at 415k.
There are lots of problems with TFC (lack of cohesive back line and a bonafide scorer). Losing Robbo is not an issue as far as on field performance goes. In fact...it will help.
Good luck in whatever else you do Robbo.
Well said. That said, I still hope to see JDG in a more advanced role or at least having the freedom to move up field with Cronin sliding in behind him when necessary.
That's what I'd like to see too but I remember seeing JDG in an interview where he stated that he's most comfortable in that holding mid role. At any rate, I think he and Cronin in the middle of the field should work out well.
Watching Preki at Chivas, he had both central mids destroy (Nagamura and one other which skips my mind) they'd quickly turn to counter attack and get forward. So basically both guys can play box-to-box.
Not a bad idea if Cronin and JDG are on the field together. Not exactly sold on Saric yet as the Am successor to Guevara. Maybe a little more pre-season burn will bring out the best.
HAHA i stand corrected
Now you're onto something. This is why I dislike corporate ownership - the corporate mentality isn't really suited to sports teams because the buck never stops, it just keeps spinning. Everyone's just trying to please their boss and there are the stated goals - winning the championship! And then there are the goals that will actually get people contract extensions and raises.
So, whoever was GM of TFC would have done exactly the same thing with DeRo - got him at the lowest contract possible. That's the way the corporate mentality works, that's why keying on the individual is pointless.
On the other hand, if TFC was owned by an individual, say Robert Kraft, they'd playing in the Rogers Centre on a shitty carpet but they'd have a manager everyone loves - and they still wouldn't win anything...
Just to get back to DeRo...Houston had a better replacement for him, they were quite happy to see him go...Stuart Holden did a great job is his role - and had been groomed to take that position for several years.
'Tampering' seems far-fetched. If Houston had wanted to keep DeRo around, they would have...but they didn't, they had a younger, better, american, replacement.
And as Parkdale highlighted....you are correct sir....and gues what lads, Robbo won't be the last one who wants out. Confirmed.
Mo. Out. Now.
Holden had one year left on his contract, and was already making noises about leaving. If they were banking on him, it wasn't much of a strategy, in terms of replacing a perennial allstar.
My own farfetched conspiracy theory? I don't know exactly how but I think DeRo coming here was part of the resolution of the McBride thing. MLS wants/wanted local stars in the right local market, for obvious reasons. The league quietly promised MLSE that, if they rolled over on McBride, the league would get DeRo for them in due course. Houston went along with this and in turn got something from the league in some other way. Plus I'd bet the Dynamo were getting weary of DeRo, he is a bit of a prima donna, let's face it.
Last edited by ensco; 03-08-2010 at 10:26 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
so much speculation and so many assumptions in this thread my head is spinning.
this was about Robbo wasn't it? lol. Good luck to him. I wish him well. He'll be missed off the field, but not much on the field.
For me, the issue isn't so much that Robbo's leaving. Part of it is the way in which he was unceremoniously cast off. The rest is that we'll end up eating a significant portion of his salary in a wage structure that doesn't leave much breathing room. What's worse is we're still carrying plenty of dead weight.
1. We should never have signed Gerba and Garcia, who must be the most expensive make-weight in the league. Johnston's doing.
2. Dichio: treat like shit. Robbo: treat like shit. Johnston's doing.
3. If Robinson lost a step last year then Brennan lost three. He's not cheap either so what's he still doing here and can you tell me why he still wears the captain's armband? Johnston's doing.
4. JDG: could be a great signing, yes. But on his money, DM is not an option for him. He needs to step up, showing some fucking minerals and drive the attack on this team.
5. As for missing his character: are you seriously suggesting that a team that has conceded nine in its last two games against New York has character?
Yes, we have more skilled players than Robbo now. It's not that he's gone, it's another example of casting off a loyal servant to the club like rubbish. It's the latest in a number of serious blunders smeared with Johnston's fingerprints.
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