I can't see anyway in hell the NFL jumps into bed with MLSE. You'd be telling me that their first foreign owner would be a corporation (breaking existing league policy) and that corporation would be a communications / media conglomerate (ie. the exact people they rake money out of hand-over-fist). They have good reasons for their existing rules and structure, I see protecting them as being much more important than our market.
Yeah, it's looking like Mayor Ford wouldn't have much time fighting for Argos move to BMO field (assuming that Argos are open to relocating to BMO field).Originally Posted by OgtheDim
If the NFL had wanted to put a team in Toronto, they would have done so a long time ago, and not have gone to places like Charlotte and Jacksonville. And the federal government would not be able to stop them like they did in 1974 when they stopped the World Footbll League from setting up shop in Toronto (which was a very dumb ruling). The fact that they haven't shows just how difficult such a move would be.
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Agreed. Torontonians might be willing to pay exorbitant prices to watch abysmal sports teams, but not if they are foreign, lol.
anyone else feel that someone was smoking... when they said 'argos to bmo'
would with a successful world cup bid seeing that an 80k stadium would be needed to host the final
Canada will never get a WC. We are not going to spend the billions to do that. Nor should we. Let the corrupt and the rich do that gig. I'll take decent transit over a 4 week festival, thank you very much.
ha! well you look at the totality of the situation: renovating BMO field is a 100M + job.
Would TFC cover that expense? nope.
Would the Argos? Likely not at that price.
Together? Probably still a non-starter. which leaves....
The city? I'm not sure, even if Ford throws his weight behind it, if council would pass something like that. They've frequently ignored his ideas in the past and in many ways he was already a paper tiger prior to today. At this point he's realistically lost all influence. So I'm not sure what the future of this plan is. Think it would need a new champion to get done.
I would suspect someplace like Markham, Mississauga, or Vaughn would have much more appetite to get the CFL than Toronto would to keep it. Hopefully, that's how this plays out.
It comes down to MLSE - they always get what they want from the city. Do they want outdoor hockey games? Do they want the biggest city in the CFL (which is very important to Bell) to have a downtown stadium like the Als?
It's never matted to MLSE who sits in the mayor's chair.
Rob Ford was always irrelevant.
MLSE are the ones with cash and the city can only slightly nudge them to help the Argo's out.
It just so happens that accepting the Argo's to BMO would be very profitable for MLSE, not to mention the possibility of outdoor games for the Leafs.
Wait, why can't they do that outdoor hockey business crap shit now? Why will it be different of they renovate?
BMO isn't winterized. Every pipe in every washroom and concessionaire would freeze. Also there are no suitable locker rooms.
Most important, the capacity needs to be higher - the existing 20K capacity only would serve the existing Leaf SSH base - the capacity needs to be much higher to really drive incremental revenue.
Last edited by ensco; 10-31-2013 at 11:24 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Would Toronto support a losing NFL team indefinitely?
I hated this move so much when it happened. I Sspported the protest from the Argos and CFL fans but it wasn't a long shot crazy idea with upwards of 25% of Bills fans in the stadium being border-crossers and the number of just NFL fans in the GTA. I'd like to highlight how little these NFL fans wanted to pay premium prices to watch their Sunday TV teams.
I think people would eventually support a Toronto home team but it would more likely be the expansion fad that carries them into a time when people will follow Toronto AND their first NFL team.
The NFL is the goal for MLSE. There are ways they can achieve it but I think it's after the Argos are taken care of.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Aaahhhhh yes! Thanks
I don't know why this would be this case. "MLSE" is just the internet/cable duopoly. What they care about is controlling exclusive content that drives phone or internet consumption (and the ability to block anyone else who might steal their customers with an exclusive sports offering). Bell/Rogers bought this because a competitor could theoretically build a whole business around offering the Leafs exclusively, and they wanted to forestall that ever happening.
But I don't see any way that a new entrant could build a TV/internet franchise around a Toronto NFL team. It's not the Leafs, and it's only 8 (or 16) games.
So I don't see why they care.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Okay, I'm not being facetious, but what's standing in their way? If MLSE want an NFL team, why don't they have one?
Yes from a business standpoint, of course, as usual, you're dead on. But in the sports world, which is what most of us focus on here, the NFL is the trophywife of NA sport. It's a prestige get for them. That would be one of the only reasons they care.
Was it not you that mentioned earlier that NFL won't award franchises to groups? There is more to be done to make it happen. Could've been Brooker or ensco. Apologies if so.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
It seems like there's too much needed to make it happen. An NFL expansion team will cost a billion dollars (Houston's expansion fee was $700 million) - that's a lot of money for prestige for a company that already owns the rights to broadcast every NFL team to all of Canada. Seems like that would be a tough sell to a board of directors. They don't seem that interested in trophies - wives or otherwise - at MLSE (sorry, that was too easy).
And they'd have to find an individual willing to act as a front and at least claim to put 30% of that billion. And they'd have to get the government to put up a huge amount of money (that's usually what the individual owner is really good at).
I don't know, it seems there's some value in MLSE claiming they want to bring an NFL team here, but no real value in actually doing it.
There are a few issues with Toronto getting an NFL franchise... some of them have already been pointed out but these are the things working against us:
1) NFL Franchise Rules require a single owner, not a corporation or consortium. We don't have that in Canada unless we have a foreign owner (Ed Rogers is probably close). If you're a foreign owner you'd like invest in a more viable market. And yes, Green Bay is an exception.
2) LA has been pestering the NFL for a team ever since the Raiders went back to Oakland. The city has already committed to a new stadium downtown.
3) TV Rights. Forget the whole Rogers/Bell part... CBS and Fox split the majority of the regional games. ESPN, NBC and Fox have national games... There isn't a lot of revenue for them to sign on to a deal outside a major US market. And they sure as hell aren't going to let that revenue go.
4) Minimum attendance... There is no magic number... it is a sell out. If it's not sold out, the game isn't shown in the local market. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS... Rogers buys the remaining unsold seats for the Bills in Toronto series to get around this. This isn't viable long term and I'm sure Bell and Rogers wouldn't be too keen on losing the advertising revenue from local broadcasts.
5) As a Fan of the NFL, the game day experience at a Bills in Toronto game is horrible - terrible, compared to a day at Ralph Wilson... or Browns Stadium, or Lambeau, or Foxboro... I could keep going for all 32 teams.
I am a huge fan of the NFL, second only to my love for footy. But I never want to see a team in Toronto...
More importantly, each team receives 118+ million from the current TV deals.
Does anyone really think that
a) Any Canadian Broadcaster would pay that much for 16 games.
b) Any US owners be happy that a Canadian team is cutting into their revenue.
The only way any NFL team lands in Canada is is Canadian broadcasters match what each US team gets. And no Canadian broadcaster is that stupid, in the land where hockey is king.
I think there is a misunderstanding about the NFL TV rights in Canada. The price paid for those rights is not disclosed, but it is massive, in the hundreds of millions in aggregate. They are incredibly valuable.
It is not the case that nobody cares. It is simply that Toronto is exactly like LA in that viewership is already high without a local market team, so the incremental "bump" that would happen if there were a local team would probably be small (and therefore adds little to the value a new franchise would generate from TV)
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I hope you're right but there is always someone more stupid than you think.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
In fact, some NFL teams think they're losing ticket sales to TV:
http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2013...-nfl-red-zone/
The other thing to note with Canadian TV rights, we aren't really locked to a local specific market. Eg the Bills don't sell out or don't play, the game will then be subbed with NE for example. They try to align to a market, but it doesn't really work. Down east it's a combination of Jets and Pats... Out west it's Minni and Shitattle. If a team did come to Canada, most of what's currently in place for a TV deal would be out the window.
What's the "local market" now? If you're in Ottawa, Montreal or even say Winnipeg, are you now subjected to the Toronto market? If I grew up a Jets fan but was now forced to watch the Toronto Bills, I'd be pretty pissed.
Hardly hundreds of Millions. CTV/Rogers split the cost estimated to be between 10-15 million per season.
http://www.friends.ca/news-item/3041
Which still leaves 100m shortfall.
I suspect the same thing would happen as it is currently with the Jays.
I think that number is total bunkum, plus it's 6 years ago (TV revs in US have doubled since then), plus there's Global and City ..... Calling McCartney....
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
NFL franchises are billion dollar enterprises out of the gate now. The value of franchises does nothing but go up and up. It doesn't matter that it's only 8 home dates, the TV contract is a monster.
Sorry, this is was in response to "Why does it matter to MLSE?" about getting an NFL franchise.
I agree with those that say Toronto could easily support an NFL team, but people don't want to support a team that is only here for the money because they can't support themselves.
The NFL will only expand under their terms. That's why L.A. still doesn't have a team.
Last edited by Tony Santiago; 11-01-2013 at 12:50 PM.
Since we are on the NFL now:
The problems i see with the current setup are:
1. The bills are not Toronto's team
2. can't have a real game day experience like every city in the league has (tailgating mainly)
3. indoor stadium
4. still cheaper for me to get on a party bus and go to buffalo than to buy tickets/food/beer/gotrain in toronto
if they can fix these issues the NFL would thrive in Toronto but if not it won't take off like they would want
80K+ for 9 games a year, and all paying? Doubtful. That and no way a government is going to pony up the $1 billion + it would take to build an NFL stadium. And the NFL likes to maximise the marks...ahem....investors.
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