Argos unlikely to play at BMO Field in 2014

[Tony Santiago]

Don't hold your breath waiting for Larry Tanenbaum to get involved in the NFL. He doesn't have the jam (or the interest, I believe).

His holding in MLSE is worth around $300-400M, and that is more than all his other interests put together.

Here's a Tanenbaum quote in regards to his interest in the NFL: "I'm highly interested in an NFL team and Ted is, too," said Tanenbaum. Ted is referring to Ted Rogers, who actually didn't want to invest in owning an NFL team at the time, just getting the Bills for Toronto. Your opinion on Tanenbaum's interest is wrong.

Tanenbaum was just another example. He's worth an estimated 1 billion dollars. I'm not holding my breath on anything, just showing you guys that could possibly be involved in a team. There is no certainty to anything, one way or the other.

I'm still not entirely sure what your point is. Like I say, you just seem like a contrarian. You seem to be wrong about two things in your last post, but you don't hesitate to put it out there as fact. Tanenbaum is worth more than you think and his interest is much stronger than you think. You can believe whatever you want, but the facts are different.

[OgtheDim]

What's to debate? I'm providing statistics and you make Rob Ford comments and face palm emoticons. Your Rob Ford comment is what is referred to in pro wrestling as a "cheap pop". It's like you're trying to cut a promo and looking for support despite relevance.
...

Hmmm...using Rob Ford as an example now is equivalent to Godwin?

If the worst thing you've ever been told on the internet is that your logic failed on one point and the example provided to rebutt you on that one point happens to be the most relevant one we all know about (ie Rob Ford), then you're getting off pretty light.

I never get this outrage people have at somebody making the effort to prove them wrong. Its not like somebody is sticking a fork in them. Heck, I've had my logic and long held ideas insulted on the internet by Nuclear Engineers, Theoretical Physicists, Academics of various fields and some of the most adept philosophers and thinkers in North America and Europe. I can tell people, you havn't experienced anything until your well crafted, you thought, and well worked on views on something, crafted over 2 hours, and posted with much confidence and sincerity is shredded in totality about 50 seconds later by somebody using only 8 words...and that was by a 60 odd year old homemaker from Maine.

Aaa...good times.

Anyhoo, in this case, you've been told why some particular ideas you put into this discussion are wrong, by more then just me.

But, hey, claim victory, act incredulous that I dared to say your ideas were wrong and used an emoticon that you found abhorrent and used an example that you think went too far. Whatever it takes for you to feel good about yourself.

I'm on here for one reason.

[ensco]

I'm still not entirely sure what your point is. Like I say, you just seem like a contrarian. You seem to be wrong about two things in your last post, but you don't hesitate to put it out there as fact. Tanenbaum is worth more than you think and his interest is much stronger than you think. You can believe whatever you want, but the facts are different.

So to recap, the mainstream position is that NFL is coming to TO because cities should spend a billion dollars on stadiums, and Toronto has a demonstrated roster of people possibly willing to come up with a billion dollars for sports teams. Also we should believe what Larry Tanenbaum says, and people should believe what Maclean's or whomever says his net worth is, because Larry has this huge record of honesty in public statements, and Macleans's, or whoever publishes these billionaire lists, they must know for sure.

I, on the other hand, am the contrarian, whose point is muddled.

[Ivy]

This thread is too much for people with less than 90 IQ points.

[Tony Santiago]

Hmmm...using Rob Ford as an example now is equivalent to Godwin?

If the worst thing you've ever been told on the internet is that your logic failed on one point and the example provided to rebutt you on that one point happens to be the most relevant one we all know about (ie Rob Ford), then you're getting off pretty light.

I never get this outrage people have at somebody making the effort to prove them wrong. Its not like somebody is sticking a fork in them. Heck, I've had my logic and long held ideas insulted on the internet by Nuclear Engineers, Theoretical Physicists, Academics of various fields and some of the most adept philosophers and thinkers in North America and Europe. I can tell people, you havn't experienced anything until your well crafted, you thought, and well worked on views on something, crafted over 2 hours, and posted with much confidence and sincerity is shredded in totality about 50 seconds later by somebody using only 8 words...and that was by a 60 odd year old homemaker from Maine.

Aaa...good times.

Anyhoo, in this case, you've been told why some particular ideas you put into this discussion are wrong, by more then just me.

But, hey, claim victory, act incredulous that I dared to say your ideas were wrong and used an emoticon that you found abhorrent and used an example that you think went too far. Whatever it takes for you to feel good about yourself.

I'm on here for one reason.

What are you talking about? Again, I don't care about your personal experiences on the internet. You seem to really think what you say is the be all and end all and I'm not sure why.

Despite what you want to say, your Rob Ford comment makes no sense in regards to stadium math or what other politicians in other cities do. It just doesn't, at all, in any way shape or form. Just because you seem to think highly of your own opinions doesn't make them fact.

I'm not claiming victory, as this isn't a competition. You are certain of something, but there are no certainties to this topic. Once again, your point was that Toronto couldn't sell out an 80 000 seat stadium and that a stadium would be a disaster and taxpayers would lose. That is only your opinion and there isn't anything to back it.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This thread is too much for people with less than 90 IQ points.

This thread has derailed into the likelihood of an NFL franchise coming to Toronto because it's linked with the real subject of the Argos and BMO. Until that acquisition becomes reality we might as well debate the success of the flying car market.

[Tony Santiago]

So to recap, the mainstream position is that NFL is coming to TO because cities should spend a billion dollars on stadiums, and Toronto has a demonstrated roster of people possibly willing to come up with a billion dollars for sports teams. Also we should believe what Larry Tanenbaum says, and people should believe what Maclean's or whomever says his net worth is, because Larry has this huge record of honesty in public statements, and Macleans's, or whoever publishes these billionaire lists, they must know for sure.

I, on the other hand, am the contrarian, whose point is muddled.

The problem is you apparently don't have any reading comprehension skills. When did I say that the NFL is coming to Toronto? I'll save you the trouble of finding the answer. I never said that.

You have proof that Larry Tanenbaum is a liar or something? Or is this just another opinion thing? You doubt the accuracy of his wealth because it doesn't fit your beliefs, but that doesn't make the reporting inaccurate. Are you seriously doubting the reporting because it doesn't jive with what you thought to be true?

Everything you say is exaggerated. Who said your point was muddled? Not me. I said I don't know what it is because you never make one. I said you are a contrarian, which you are demonstrating nicely. You doubt Tanenbaum's honesty (he simply gave his opinion that he is interested in getting an NFL team in Toronto, why would he lie about his own desires?) because it doesn't fit your ideas. Any examples of Tanenbaum's dishonesty? Nope. You doubt his reported wealth because it's different than what I said. You even doubt Maclean's magazine just in case they were the ones reporting his wealth, because it is contrary to my point.

[Tony Santiago]

This thread has derailed into the likelihood of an NFL franchise coming to Toronto because it's linked with the real subject of the Argos and BMO. Until that acquisition becomes reality we might as well debate the success of the flying car market.

For me it's just annoying to see these guys who, like on most subjects, speak with absolute certainty on subjects that there is no certainty. I'm pretty much done. It gets old to read the factless sarcasm anyway.

What's the point of debating anything on this site if it's like debating flying carpets? You may as well shut half the threads down, player speculation first and foremost.

[Kaz]

What are you talking about? Again, I don't care about your personal experiences on the internet. You seem to really think what you say is the be all and end all and I'm not sure why.

Despite what you want to say, your Rob Ford comment makes no sense in regards to stadium math or what other politicians in other cities do. It just doesn't, at all, in any way shape or form. Just because you seem to think highly of your own opinions doesn't make them fact.

I'm not claiming victory, as this isn't a competition. You are certain of something, but there are no certainties to this topic. Once again, your point was that Toronto couldn't sell out an 80 000 seat stadium and that a stadium would be a disaster and taxpayers would lose. That is only your opinion and there isn't anything to back it.

it's very simple... Skydome.

No one needs to say more. The Bills can't sell it out. the Agros can't, the Jays rarely do.

You aren't putting 80,000 in a stadium in Toronto because Gridiron isn't popular enough with the strong new comer populations, or with anyone else.
The Bills have not sold out, and have had as few as 40,000 people show up.

The game would have to be sold out every year if there were really enough fans to fill 80,000 seats.

[Fort York Redcoat]

For me it's just annoying to see these guys who, like on most subjects, speak with absolute certainty on subjects that there is no certainty. I'm pretty much done. It gets old to read the factless sarcasm anyway.

What's the point of debating anything on this site if it's like debating flying carpets? You may as well shut half the threads down, player speculation first and foremost.

If your looking for a debate sans sarcasm the first step is not participating in perpetuating it. There are those here that can discuss without accusations. There will be fact. There will be opinion. I'm not so quick to deem threads without purpose. It's clear it frustrates you.

...And flying carpets? C'mon....those'll never sell.

[glaze]

Having been at yesterday's Bills game, I dont think Toronto can handle the "NFL experience." Oh we may get a team one day, if we have a government that will build a stadium (though the SkyDome was such a disaster that may be difficult), and an owner that can be fronted 1 billion dollars.
But, with the uproar about drunkeness and fights that follows every jays home opener, I don't see us ever getting the Buffalo experience here. And that's what many (not all) fans want. The sterile family atmosphere hasn't exactly attracted demand for the Bills Toronto series.
As for stadium location, I think you'd see a renovated Skydome to meet NFL requirements. The Jays need a baseball stadium, outdoors on grass. Downsview always gets thrown out as a location, but, there really isn't much land up there that isn't being used. The field that runs along Allen Rd is a functioning airport.

[ag futbol]

Don't hold your breath waiting for Larry Tanenbaum to get involved in the NFL. He doesn't have the jam (or the interest, I believe).

His holding in MLSE is worth around $300-400M, and that is more than all his other interests put together.

And good luck getting out of that one without taking a heavy discount.

Although, someday that piece could be very important if the Bell / Rogers partnership gets rocky.

[Yagbod]

The problem with the Flying Carpet market is the safety issue. There are no railings!!! Also, think of the stink at City Hall when they have to buy special police flying carpets. Where do you put the ram plates?!?

I've been trying to get into this market for years. It is a bitch finding a supplier, but before I can even really look for one I have to get City, Provincial and Federal approval and they won't even talk to me!

I do have a large stack of carpets waiting to be enchanted. Perhaps the Argos could put them out over the grass at BMO to protect it. I'm selling: Cheap!!!



(and I do think this post is more relevant and interesting than the pissing contest above. Stay on target you ninnies. This is actually an important issue.)

[Ivy]

Note to self: never read the last post, thinking that it'll summarize the thread so far. The name of the thread, and the post by Yagbod nearly made my head explode.

[Yagbod]

Sorry about that. I blame FYR for planting the idea.

[Redcoe15]

I want, i want, i want a flying carpet!!!

[Section 117]

Where can I get one of these flying carpets you guys have been discussing?

[Ivy]

Lol jesussss can we stop? Let's go back to the Argos at BMO topic

[Nestease]

it's very simple... Skydome.

No one needs to say more. The Bills can't sell it out. the Agros can't, the Jays rarely do.

The average price of the first Bills in Toronto game was $183 per ticket, which would make it cheaper (and more entertaining) to drive to Buffalo and enjoy a tailgate and a game.

Toronto Blue Jays play 162 games a season, and have a higher average attendance than the league average.

The Argos play in an 8 team Canadian league.

[Pint]

for the bills its 170+hst for a bus from toronto, ticket to game, food (all you can eat pregame), beer(all you can drink pregame)

[Kaz]

Doesn't change that none of them can sell out the dome very often.

The 1990 Season had 50+ sell outs.

[OgtheDim]

Meh...the whole move the Argos to BMO in order to get the NFL seems far fetched to me.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Meh...the whole move the Argos to BMO in order to get the NFL seems far fetched to me.

There are many who believe that an NFL team would jeopardize the life of the CFL team. If the same umbrella owned them both they could ensure their continued place in the sports landscape and co-exist instead of trying to compete with the NFL team.

[Waggy]

People still actually think this is happening eh? A few facts on the NFL moving to Toronto

- There are at least 2 cities ahead of Toronto in line for teams. LA (building a stadium) and London (hosting 3/4 games next year). LA will need 2 teams in order to be viable in their new building. So the 4th NFL expansion or moved team would theoretically be interested in Toronto.
- The CFL's existence has been used as the main defense by the NFL against every anti-trust suit from a failed new football league in the past 40 years. The NFL needs the CFL alive and well. That's why when the CFL was in big trouble 10-15 years ago, they sent money.
- The NFL will not move to a stadium smaller than 60 000 people. The Skydome would have to be completely rebuilt for that to happen, and the Jays want it to be a baseball only facility. Given that they own the stadium...
- Moving to Toronto doesn't expand the NFL's TV revenue nor does it open up a new market. As awesome as it'd be to have an NFL team, it's a pipe dream for at least a decade.

A few facts on the Argos moving to BMO
- The city owns BMO field, so ultimately MLSE has to do whatever they say. That said, the renovations to BMO to retro fit it to be able to host the CFL would cost almost as much as a football specific stadium on crown land elsewhere.
- The Argos would not move to another building where they are the 2nd tenant. The CFL will not allow it. Hell the government of Canada might step in to not allow it. They need their own stadium to be viable in this city. Being guests at TFC's stadium would still SEVERELY hamper their ability to schedule games, have practices and build atmosphere. These people are marketing genius' (between MLSE, Rogers and Bell). They wouldn't sabotage their own product.
- Even if MLSE buys the Argos (which I believe they will), why wouldn't they use their clout to get another BMO field deal? BMO field came together thanks to a soccer fan being mayor. Right now a huge football fan is the mayor. And MLSE Is more powerful than ever with Bogers behind it. Moar venues. Moar land. Moar money.
- If MLSE bought the Argos, and has a hugely vested interest in their success, why would they want them playing in a 2nd rate facility? BMO field isn't up to par for MLS anymore. Take a look at the stadiums being built around the CFL. They'd be 20-30 years behind the rest of the league.

Everyone needs to just chill out and take a few deep breaths.

And teams don't sell out the dome very often anymore cause they suck. If the Jays were the Tampa Bay Rays for the past 7-8 years, the Jays would be averaging 45 000 a game.

[BuSaPuNk]

^ End Thread. Can't say it better. It's never going to happen.

[Still Kicking]

[QUOTE=Waggy;1619920]People still actually think this is happening eh? A few facts on the NFL moving to Toronto

- Moving to Toronto doesn't expand the NFL's TV revenue nor does it open up a new market. As awesome as it'd be to have an NFL team, it's a pipe dream for at least a decade.[QUOTE=Waggy;1619920]

I thought that this was the critical point that had been missing in the NFL in Toronto argument. It is not quite a matter of Canadian billionaires able to finance the billion dollar+ franchise fee or the drawbacks of the dome stadium (although both are factors and obstacles), but the incredible clout that the US tv networks have over the NFL. CBS, NBC, Fox and ABC (ESPN) shovel billions of dollars at the NFL. Even a decision to place a team in London England would have to be sold to the networks as a benefit.
All leagues with Canadian and American teams encounter lower American tv ratings when the Canadian team plays the American. As long as their are American tv markets that are outside of the NFL (LA x2, San Antonio, Portland, Oklahoma...) you can expect the networks to be working towards expansion that feeds their ratings. Remember that the American population has been drifting southward, so even border rivalries (say TO and Buffalo/Detroit) do not have the ratings impact that the networks seek.
I say LA x2 because public funding for a stadium in LA has been linked to getting two teams, LA wants a Giants/Jets style stadium sharing so that the facility is in use every weekend.
If MLSE buys the Argos and if MLSE builds a stadium that is either NFL ready or expandable and if TL stays with MLSE, you would still have to say Toronto in NFL is a long shot for decades. I would be willing to bet that TL is back in LA watching NFL football within a decade. The Toronto shares the Bills once a year deal might be as close as it gets and even that is in jeopardy post-Ralph Wilson.

[Still Kicking]

Man, I messed up the reply with quote and did not end the html properly...help!

[Beach_Red]

^ End Thread. Can't say it better. It's never going to happen.

I would really like it to be the end, but, "- The Argos would not move to another building where they are the 2nd tenant. The CFL will not allow it," is a problem. The CFL isn't in a position to "allow" very much. And they're still so thrilled to have the Als in McGill Stadium (where they are technically the #2 tenant after McGill, aren't they?) after losing the team completely and then having the same problems in the Big O that the Argos have in the Dome the CFL is a little desperate.

Toronto hasn't had much success with big builds in a long time, it's hard to imagine another big stadium being built here. There just doesn't seem like there's much will to get it done - certainly not from governments and not much from the private sector, either. Lots of talk, very little spending.

So, the easiest thing is to reno BMO and move the Argos in. I agree, it's not a good idea but this city seems to make a lot of poor decisions.

I just hope if it happens there will be someone speaking for TFC to make it as painless as possible. And I hope they can say they have a large number of season ticket holders who need to be heard. Unfortunately, what I hear a lot is, "If this happens I'll stop going to games."

[Haddy]

People still actually think this is happening eh? A few facts on the NFL moving to Toronto

- There are at least 2 cities ahead of Toronto in line for teams. LA (building a stadium) and London (hosting 3/4 games next year). LA will need 2 teams in order to be viable in their new building. So the 4th NFL expansion or moved team would theoretically be interested in Toronto.
- The CFL's existence has been used as the main defense by the NFL against every anti-trust suit from a failed new football league in the past 40 years. The NFL needs the CFL alive and well. That's why when the CFL was in big trouble 10-15 years ago, they sent money.
- The NFL will not move to a stadium smaller than 60 000 people. The Skydome would have to be completely rebuilt for that to happen, and the Jays want it to be a baseball only facility. Given that they own the stadium...
- Moving to Toronto doesn't expand the NFL's TV revenue nor does it open up a new market. As awesome as it'd be to have an NFL team, it's a pipe dream for at least a decade.

A few facts on the Argos moving to BMO
- The city owns BMO field, so ultimately MLSE has to do whatever they say. That said, the renovations to BMO to retro fit it to be able to host the CFL would cost almost as much as a football specific stadium on crown land elsewhere.
- The Argos would not move to another building where they are the 2nd tenant. The CFL will not allow it. Hell the government of Canada might step in to not allow it. They need their own stadium to be viable in this city. Being guests at TFC's stadium would still SEVERELY hamper their ability to schedule games, have practices and build atmosphere. These people are marketing genius' (between MLSE, Rogers and Bell). They wouldn't sabotage their own product.
- Even if MLSE buys the Argos (which I believe they will), why wouldn't they use their clout to get another BMO field deal? BMO field came together thanks to a soccer fan being mayor. Right now a huge football fan is the mayor. And MLSE Is more powerful than ever with Bogers behind it. Moar venues. Moar land. Moar money.
- If MLSE bought the Argos, and has a hugely vested interest in their success, why would they want them playing in a 2nd rate facility? BMO field isn't up to par for MLS anymore. Take a look at the stadiums being built around the CFL. They'd be 20-30 years behind the rest of the league.

Everyone needs to just chill out and take a few deep breaths.

And teams don't sell out the dome very often anymore cause they suck. If the Jays were the Tampa Bay Rays for the past 7-8 years, the Jays would be averaging 45 000 a game.

All good points. But I don't agree with your valuation of renovation cost simply based on past TL comments.

TL said bringing the Argos to BMO would put the total BMO Field reno cost over $100-million. Half of which is the roof, let's say $50-million, and we'll forget about the other upgrades. So $50-million for Argos and $50-million for roof (the obvious assumption, flawed I admit, is total cost is not much more than $100-mil).

Winnipeg's stadium was around $200-million. Regina council just approved the new $278-million Riders stadium. The cheapest brand new CFL stadium being built is Hamilton's at just under $150-million. That's still a potential $100-million difference between a mediocre new facility, because Tim Horton's Field is just that compared to the others, and the assumed extra cost of adding the Argos to BMO.

But I absolutely 100% agree, moving to BMO is not ideal for the Argos. It's simply a cost-saving, band-aid, measure.

[mowe]

Yup, Waggy said it best.

I personally believe the NFL is never coming to Toronto for two main reasons. One: LA and London are so far ahead of us as priorities, I don't think Toronto is even on the radar. Two: there is no way the city is building a $500 million+ stadium for them. And Rogers Centre or BMO Field are not going to be expanded to NFL size EVER.

As for Argos, we're going to have to wait and see. Moving them to BMO is the obvious solution, but the cost to retrofit the stadium is very high. Not sure if it's worth spending that much money just for a second-rate stadium. Clearly the best option would be to build a new stadium for the Argos somewhere in the GTA, but that's a long process that will take years to materialize.