~ BMO Field: Should argos move in? Superthread~

[ensco]

This statement caught my eye:

The Argo owners were furious when they learned it had been constructed with stands that do not allow the facility to accommodate a regulation-size CFL field.

Naylor's been had. This is laughable. He should maybe make a couple of phone calls next time he writes something about this.

When the new stadium was being looked at, the Argos were in partnership with MLSE and the CSA. But the Argos broke off to do a separate deal with York (which never happened). So they left the table, they did it unilaterally, they deceived their partners about it at the time, and MLSE were furious, and it was personal. A key individual at MLSE, who had been close to one of the Argo principals for decades, has not spoken to him since. That's why BMO is soccer-only.

It's a City decision, whether to try to accomodate the Argos, but MLSE are their partner on this, MLSE are the manager at BMO, MLSE are pouring millions into BMO, and MLSE will get the priority dates. I am sure that MLSE received significant usage conditions as part of putting in grass, they wouldn't want to see it torn up by another tenant.

So MLSE may have real influence on whether this happens. And as far as MLSE are concerned, hell will freeze over before the Argos come into BMO

[Fort York Redcoat]

Anybody know if York ever built themselves that new stadium they were intending to share withthe Argos before Rogers basically let them squat in Skydome rent free?

Try building there.

[Razor]

The Argos can go fuck off and build their own stadium.

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN

[Fort York Redcoat]

realistic question


What if the Argos came in with a proposal that would piggy up an 8,000 seat expansion or something like that...would we as fans accept an Argos move (as long as TFC games had priority to the facility including any mid-season scheduled friendlies)?

I don't give a shit if St Cinamon wants to replace every stand with Lazy-Boys recliners and give us a roof and golden goalposts.

He can piss right off.

[Heepster]

And BTW, the attendance announced at Argo games is ridiculously fictional. During Argo games for the last year or two the Rogers Centre upper (500) level is closed and completely empty. For there to be the crowds of 25 to 30 thousand they claim, the seats in the 100 and 200 levels of the stadium would need to be almost entirely filled, and a generous estimate would be they were about one third occupied for most games. I suppose there could be several thousand tickets given away, or sold and not used, but I think there could have been under 10,000 actually present at many of the games. Maybe they could look into extending the field at Lamport Stadium into the parking lot?

[Blazer]

Considering that the two seasons overlap, allowing the Argos to play at BMO (and presumably) leave behind their faded chalk markings, MLS and CFL have to recognize that it only makes their respective leagues look bush. The footy fans in this city waited patiently for the pristine soccer pitch of our dreams and certainly don’t want it marred by 50, 40, 30, 20, etc. outlines.

Conversely, the CFL doesn’t need another stadium with lines all over the place if they want greater credibility to their product.

It’s a win-win for BMO, but a lose-lose for fans alike.

[Lucky Strike]

It's a City decision, whether to try to accomodate the Argos, but MLSE are their partner on this, MLSE are the manager at BMO, MLSE are pouring millions into BMO, and MLSE will get the priority dates. I am sure that MLSE received significant usage conditions as part of putting in grass, they wouldn't want to see it torn up by another tenant.

So MLSE may have real influence on whether this happens. And as far as MLSE are concerned, hell will freeze over before the Argos come into BMO

That's my view as well and why I'm not overly concerned at this juncture. The city owns the stadium which is why the Argos think they're allowed to have these dreams of moving in and while there was turf, the possibility was open, not a done deal by any chance but open.

With the installation of a grass pitch with all the trimmings and technology (draining, under-soil heating, etc...), that possibility is out the window. MLSE has just invested too much money (at BMO and elsewhere) to not be given a say on what happens. That, and as many others have pointed out, pointyball players would ruin the grass and that's why MLSE is going to say no - to protect their investment.

[sully]

Those two owners of the Argos are obviously Gobshites...it's a pity as the Argos fans clearly deserve better...the only solution is for the Argos to have their own stadium.

[Parkdale]

like it's been stated already.... it's the annual 'argos - rogers contract bluffing'.

The last time the Argos talked about moving into BMO field it all came down to one fact It was just a negotiating ploy for the Argos to get more % of concession sales. They must know that moving to BMO is a bad call for their team too, asfter all, the vast majority of their ticket holders told them so.

[redcard]

realistic question


What if the Argos came in with a proposal that would piggy up an 8,000 seat expansion or something like that...would we as fans accept an Argos move (as long as TFC games had priority to the facility including any mid-season scheduled friendlies)?

i dont think expanding the stadium is worth the price of a torn up of grass pitch...i am sure thats how everyone would see it.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Those two owners of the Argos are obviously Gobshites...it's a pity as the Argos fans clearly deserve better...the only solution is for the Argos to have their own stadium.

There's where I disagree. They're exploring what's best for their team and have done more for the team than many owners in the past. They made some bad decisions in staying at the dome and clearly have some people in charge of the team that aren't taking them in the right direction but as owners go they are good for the CFL. The Skydome is not.

And yes the Argos deserve better in the standings and the stands.

[Wagner]

The Argos play chicken with new stadium developers and lose every time...
they could have had that York/CSA stadium...they could have got into bed with the Pan-Am people...They are fully aware of these things, and then plead that they were not aware or not involved.

The Argos don't generate enough revenue to justify their own stadium, the owners are cashstrapped so they can't pay for one, no one wanted to buy the team...they are just grasping at straws and throwing ideas and statements out there.

[TFC&SpursGuy]

This shouldn't happen, but just in case, we may need to lobby city councillors just like what was done for grass.

The argument to city officials is easy - adding grass provided the prospect of increasing the value of your asset. Allowing the CFL to tear up the grass, especially when international friendlies and playoff games deep into November are on the line, will ruin that prospect.

I still remember Enlgand losing to Croatia on a Wembley pitch ruined by an NFL game in 2007. Disaster.

[zorsofstesab]

Not sure what others will do but my 1st call this morning is to my account Rep so he fully understands that as much as I love my TFC, travel to away games and have missed only 3 home games since inception (believe me I tried in vein to not miss the games) I will NOT renew my season tickets if the Argos come on board. We waited far too long for grass. We were the laughing stock with the plastic surface and now I want exclusive rights to watch my beloved TFC as the soul tenant.

This is not a threat but a reality. I cannot fathom how much damage the Argos will cause to the grass. Even the thought of seeing faded football lines will drive me crazy!!

[koryo]

It's quite sad really that the Argos have been reduced to these sorts of tactics.

I could care less if the Boatmen sink. Another nail in the coffin of yesterday's game.

[ensco]

There's where I disagree. They're exploring what's best for their team and have done more for the team than many owners in the past. They made some bad decisions in staying at the dome and clearly have some people in charge of the team that aren't taking them in the right direction but as owners go they are good for the CFL. The Skydome is not.

And yes the Argos deserve better in the standings and the stands.

They have not been good owners. They have been ultra cheapskate owners.

David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski, between them, have more money than God. Cynamon made hundreds of millions in a private-label bleach company, Sokolowski owns one of the biggest homebuilders in the 905 donut.

They bought the Argos for $2 million (or less, it may have all been borrowed from Braley if I recall correctly) and have been scrounging around the stadium issue ever since like winos sniffing beer caps. All they had to do was toss some pocket change into the MLSE/CSA deal, and they'd be at BMO, but they thought they could get a stadium for free at York. That's why they're where they are.

The Argo owners are entitled to pursue their self interest, absolutely. But Joe Argo fan knows that it's not like they actually care about the Argos. The Argo owners are caretaker owners looking for a flip on the back of a publicly-funded stadium deal.

I am often critical of MLSE but, when it comes to facilities, they have spent a lot of money in this City, and are far more entitled to taxpayer breaks (like the subsidized cost of BMO) than the Argo owners are.

[Parkdale]

I could care less if the Boatmen sink.

I see what you did there. Nice one!

[Parkdale]

also, let's not forget that the argos have a long history of flirting with local venues, and then pulling back. They even were in talks with the city to redevelop Lamport stadium about 8 years ago, and the place just sat and rotted until after TFC came around.

[JonO]

BUILD YOUR OWN FUCKING STADIUM YOU MORONS.

30,000 seats. At Downsview.

Share it with the Rugby Canada and the Rugby Canada Super League. Get that going.

Problem solved.

Amen to this - I'd go watch rugby there...

[Wagner]

also, let's not forget that the argos have a long history of flirting with local venues, and then pulling back. They even were in talks with the city to redevelop Lamport stadium about 8 years ago, and the place just sat and rotted until after TFC came around.

Lamport would actually be good for them.
perhaps have real tailgating in the parking lot.
on the TTC line.
Right in the heart of old/real toronto (even though it's becoming revitalized)

[Fort York Redcoat]

They have not been good owners. They have been ultra cheapskate owners.

David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski, between them, have more money than God. Cynamon made hundreds of millions in a private-label bleach company, Sokolowski owns one of the biggest homebuilders in the 905 donut.

They bought the Argos for $2 million (or whatever it was) and have been scrounging around the stadium issue ever since. All they had to do was toss some pocket change into the MLSE/CSA deal, and they'd be at BMO, but they thought they could get a stadium for free at York. That's why they're where they are.

It's pathetic.

I'll agree the "boys who cried wolf" saying they might leave again is terrible but the fact they aren't outspending every other owner is supposed to be indicative of their long term commitment to the team. I just wish they would see they must shrink to improve. Atmosphere is so important to their game and appearance for their league.

[111_DrummerBoy]

I'm sick of this bullshit. Especially when Cinnamon and Suckowski are saying they're going to move to BMO as if it was a done deal. Just throwing this out there, and really this isn't something I would generally suggest but I think we need to send a message to these twats. We should organize ALL the supporters groups and protest in front the Skydome. Do it up right, get flags, banners, dress in TFC gear and let the city know that BMO is our house! Plus it would be a good offseason event.

Thoughts?

[koryo]

I'm sick of this bullshit. Especially when Cinnamon and Suckowski are saying they're going to move to BMO as if it was a done deal. Just throwing this out there, and really this isn't something I would generally suggest but I think we need to send a message to these twats. We should organize ALL the supporters groups and protest in front the Skydome. Do it up right, get flags, banners, dress in TFC gear and let the city know that BMO is our house! Plus it would be a good offseason event.

Thoughts?

Rioting against Argo fans? We're red, they're blue... so there's precedent at least.

Can we bring brass knuckles instead of signs?

JK of course. I don't condone senseless violence. Now violence with a purpose on the other hand...

In all seriousness, that would only serve to legitimize the posturing of those two idiots.

[Wagner]

I'm sick of this bullshit. Especially when Cinnamon and Suckowski are saying they're going to move to BMO as if it was a done deal. Just throwing this out there, and really this isn't something I would generally suggest but I think we need to send a message to these twats. We should organize ALL the supporters groups and protest in front the Skydome. Do it up right, get flags, banners, dress in TFC gear and let the city know that BMO is our house! Plus it would be a good offseason event.

Thoughts?

you'd be better off calling/emailing your City Councillor and your Ticket Rep.

What is 30 guys in TFC gear infront of a vacant rogers centre going to accomplish?

I'd wait until something more than idle statements are floated.

Wait until you hear that a consulting firm is in BMO with Surveying equipment on behalf of the Argos.

[Parkdale]

protesting the argos game would make it look like US Vs. THEM (their fans).

we aren't against their fans, in fat - we are on the same side
Neither group wants to see the Argos at BMO field. It's just the owners
who bring it up as a bluff tactic in their negotiations with Rogers center.

let me repeat: We need to show that we support the argos fans - and want them to have their own stadium

[111_DrummerBoy]

I agree we're not against their fans or even the Argos. It's never been about that. But until these guys get the message this stupid conversation is going to keep coming up.

[Hitcho]

Paul B - anything to say on the Argos claiming they are going to move in next season? How does MLSE feel about that given the recent grass developments?

Prizby - NO!!!! NO NO NO NO NO. I would not accept any kind of expansion in return for sharing BMO Field with the Argos. They will want lines on the pitch. They will want parts of the stadium to turn blue on a permanent basis. They will ruin the grass playing surface. They will conflict with TFC for part of the MLS season and lord knows we have enough problems scheduling our home games as it is, we don't need that added on top. These are all practical issues, not political or personal sport based choices, and they are all MAJOR practical factors. So from a fan's point of view, no I would NOT go for that. And anyway, if the waiting list for TFC is as long as MLSE keep claiming it is then we can afford to expand on our steam and the revenue from all the new seats that will be istantly filled will pay for it sooner or later.

From MLSE's point of view, I don't see that they will make any money out of this (Argos will pay the City, not MLSE) although they may be able to negotiate a reduction in rent if they are sharing the stadium. However, MLSE do stand to lose out in other ways. Their pristeen new grass will get covered in ugly pointy ball lines and the surface will take a battering. The TFC fans will be livid. They will encounter a fixture headache for the overlap in seasons. SO what motivation is there for MLSE to even consider this?

From the city's point of view, well that's what worries me. They are the only ones who stand to gain from this. However, I am hoping that MLSE put in some kind of "we get sole and exclusive control over who uses the new grass while we remain tenants" clause as part of the deal to create replacement community facilities. It would be madness not to so I would think that they did. In which case, the city gets no say in this while TFC are tenants and given that MLSE and the TFC fans will be against the idea, that really should be enough to can this stupid crap.

From the Argos fans point of view, it doesn't sound like they want this to happen either. Can the Argo owners really endure a further drop in fan attendance? Doesn;t sound like it.

So, this should be nothing more than pointy ball shaped farts in the wind. But Paul B, I think we'd all be interested to hear what you have to say on this!

[Blazer]

It's quite sad really that the Argos have been reduced to these sorts of tactics.

I could care less if the Boatmen sink. Another nail in the coffin of yesterday's game.

Respectfully Koryo, I can't understand how you can call football (Canadian at that) “yesterday’s game”? A league drenched in 100+ years of history with a growing popularity (and subsequent fanbase) is nothing to scoff at in my opinion. Not wanting the Argos at BMO is one thing, but to denigrate an entire sport/league (especially one of such important cultural significance to Canada’s heritage) just isn’t right. I’m not an American football fan either, but I would never disrespect a game that has greater roots in North America than soccer.

[Always There]

I can understand people not wanting the Argos in BMO. I'm sure just about the only people who do are Sokolowski and Cynamon. Just because they want it to happen doesn't mean there is a snowballs chance in hell of it happening.

I'm sure the CFL wouldn't want it's most historic franchise to play on a CFL field that is nowhere close to regulation. It might have been fine for the Memphis Mad Dogs (who?), but not the Argos.

MLSE has stated many times they don't want the Argos. I'm not sure they need to keep addressing complete speculation.

I like the CFL, and the Argos. I can't really understand the hate for them. As much as people might not want to admit it, they draw more fans than TFC at the gate and on T.V. They are an important part of our culture. There's no reason to insult their fans, lie about their attendance or simply dismiss them as irrelevant.

This is all complete fantasy and their's no reason to get excited about this at all.

[egoodwin]

If the argos are moving in, I will not renew season tickets for 2011

I will not pay $450 to watch a shit team play on a new grass pitch with lines that is torn up.

The lacrosse lines are bad enough, I will not pay to watch our pitch fucked up even more


This is our house. Fuck off Argos