Toronto Gets 2015 Pan Am Games, what does this mean for TFC?

[wzhxvy]

Look, I could spout off something that’s multiple pages long and reply to each of you’re points individually but in order to keep in down to a reasonable level I will leave it at this:

Things are run, not by Corporations or Governments, but by people. People, will maximize their own utility first and maximize the gov’t/company utility when it makes sense to them. Instilling a system that allows someone to work in their own best interest and the organization's best interest is possible in both a private and public sector scenario.

Whether a specific project is worth while, it's all about the specifics… not a very sexy answer I know, rather boring, proof is in the details kind of stuff. But that’s simply how it is. The fact that it’s being undertaken in the public or private sector means squat.

I see it very differently. Your argument assumes people are the same and the same people are attracted by a career in the private sector as the public sector. And the fact that a system can be instilled in both the private and public sectors ignores the fact that in reality, the same system does not exist.

And yes of course every project should be evaluated on its own merits. And this project is a bad one.

[boban]

Well of course when someone doesnt agree with you, you insult them. How do you put a price on affordable housing ? You think this is some voodoo science that no one understands ? Ever heard of urban and economic development. Its actually taught in universities. The fact that you have bought this argument that you cant put a value on this stuff is your choice, but the fact of the matter is that for $2B we will be receiving a lot less value than we spent.

When someone doesn't agree with you you say they insult you.
I respect you don't like the games coming here, but you trash Hamilton on every level for being part of these games and you fail to acknowledge other peoples points/arguments. Just because you don't see the benefits, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
Yes it will cost money to build these facilities. I acknowledge and accept that. But I don't have the misconception to make the money back in a span 2 weeks. That us just being realistic or practical.
Lastly, a lot of government money is spent today that helps private business as well its citizens. Packaging them in a games bid is bad optics more than anything else.

[billyfly]

I was thinking today (don't laugh) why don't the Argos make a push to get a stadium money and take it away from the Ti-cats?

They feel the city owed them BMO, why can't the new owner say "Hey, where's my stadium?"

[Whoop]

They are supposed to get new owners, no?

I wouldn't invest in the CFL right now.

[billyfly]

The BC Lions owner has effectively been paying the bills for a year now.

They are talking about dual-ownership if you can believe it.

[Dirk Diggler]

I was thinking today (don't laugh) why don't the Argos make a push to get a stadium money and take it away from the Ti-cats?

They feel the city owed them BMO, why can't the new owner say "Hey, where's my stadium?"

That is not going to fly. The rest of the province is not going to stand for the government funding another stadium in Toronto when one is needed so badly in Hamilton. The Argos had their chance and they effed it up ... for good. I don't imagine them getting a new stadium until the Skydome is demolished ... they are stuck there for good lol.

[billyfly]

You never know.

[devioustrevor]

I'm wondering. Is not much of this $2B for infrastructure that the GTA needs anyways?

If so it's not really being spent on the Pan Am Games, it's being spent on needed infrastructure and the Pan Am Games is providing the impetus.

[rocker]

I'm wondering. Is not much of this $2B for infrastructure that the GTA needs anyways?

If so it's not really being spent on the Pan Am Games, it's being spent on needed infrastructure and the Pan Am Games is providing the impetus.

yeah, these big events are basically good for getting shit done that would never happen otherwise. without the pan am games, nobody would be spending any money on sports infrastructure. so it's definitely a force that brings all the politicians together and leaves a legacy.

[Blizzard]

I'm wondering. Is not much of this $2B for infrastructure that the GTA needs anyways?

If so it's not really being spent on the Pan Am Games, it's being spent on needed infrastructure and the Pan Am Games is providing the impetus.

You've nailed it. We take advantage of the Pan Am's and the money invested in them to upgrade our current facilities and build a bunch of new ones not to mention the Athlete's Village will become affordable housing once the games are over.

Yes, it looks expensive but let's not forget that a lot of this money would have had to be spent at some time anyway!

[wzhxvy]

When someone doesn't agree with you you say they insult you.
I respect you don't like the games coming here, but you trash Hamilton on every level for being part of these games and you fail to acknowledge other peoples points/arguments. Just because you don't see the benefits, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
Yes it will cost money to build these facilities. I acknowledge and accept that. But I don't have the misconception to make the money back in a span 2 weeks. That us just being realistic or practical.
Lastly, a lot of government money is spent today that helps private business as well its citizens. Packaging them in a games bid is bad optics more than anything else.

You are the one suggesting arguments are flying over my head as if you are so freaking brilliant that I am missing your oh so intelligent arguments. I dont recall insulting you, I just dont agree with you. Go read what you said, and see who is throwing crap around. Hamilton is a dump and you will not convince me otherwise, and 2B is way too much too spend. But if we must spend it, it should be spent in the GTA. That is my point.

[boban]

You are the one suggesting arguments are flying over my head as if you are so freaking brilliant that I am missing your oh so intelligent arguments. I dont recall insulting you, I just dont agree with you. Go read what you said, and see who is throwing crap around. Hamilton is a dump and you will not convince me otherwise, and 2B is way too much too spend. But if we must spend it, it should be spent in the GTA. That is my point.

I wasn't insulting you. It was a simple statement.
If you felt it was it's in your head.
Almost to the one no one is sided with your argument.
Hamilton being a dump in your eyes has no bearing. The city is in need of some rejuvenation as it does serve a role in the Golden Horseshoe.
Just because it's ugly now doesn't mean it can't be made attractive for the future.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I agree with the fact that the only aspect of this announcement worth talking about is the money but doesn't it make all the celebration all the more farsical? There were Olympians on the cover of the papers. Why weren't there Pan-Am winners? Would anyone recognize them?

Yay! Go Money! bit sad.

[ilikemusic]

Why does it look bad? In my opinion, the only thing that looks bad is us acting as if this event is beneath us when we have never hosted a bigger sporting event than this in the city.

It is beneath us.

Toronto shouldnt be wasting money on anything that wont attract international attention. Nobody travels to the Pan-Am games except for friends and family.

Events like this are a big enough sinkhole. If we have to throw the money away, we should insist on throwing it at the best.

How many people here have ever watched or cared about an event at the Pan-Am games? I know I never have. Was there a single televised event from the last Pan-Am games? I follow sports as closely as anybody and I didnt even know the Pan-Am games were held in 2007.

Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.

Toronto's Pan Am games bid is the Canadian sporting equivalent of the old Mad TV bit.




We 'won' the right to host an event that nobody cares about anyways.

[bones]

2B is a lot of cash to be investing in the games but since it's government money not all of that 2B was collected from Toronto so not all of it should go INTO Toronto period. These games are spread out over the Golden Horseshoe which Hamilton was and is still a big part of. The "lovely" view over the skyway bridge does paint a horrific picture of Hamilton but just as the Jane and Finch area is to Toronto, so does Hamilton have it's eye sores. There are really nice areas in the Hammer if you go looking for it just as with any major city. Let's take Harlem for instance, no one in their right mind would want to live in Harlem.....oh how the image has changed with investment.

Having said this I, for one, will be VERY sad to see old Ivor Wynne replaced. If you ask anyone who has played in the CFL, the most intimidating stadium to play in IS Ivor Wynne. The fans are right on top of you, there is no room to run out of bounds and the wind is hellish come playoff time. This ain't no pretty boy Orange Bowl. It will be missed as a venue by more than 1 CFL fan.

Bones...

[Beach_Red]

Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.

Yes, it's either that or Toronto stays a virgin, which it's getting way too old to be. Gotta get into the game at some point.

Or should the city keep mounting unsuccessful Olympic bids forever?

[C.Ronaldo]

what if this bid takes the Pan-Am games to the next level?

just like Canada did with the U-20 world cup.


think outside the box. If Toronto nails this, then a commonwealth games or even the olympics is feasible.

It is beneath us.

Toronto shouldnt be wasting money on anything that wont attract international attention. Nobody travels to the Pan-Am games except for friends and family.

Events like this are a big enough sinkhole. If we have to throw the money away, we should insist on throwing it at the best.

How many people here have ever watched or cared about an event at the Pan-Am games? I know I never have. Was there a single televised event from the last Pan-Am games? I follow sports as closely as anybody and I didnt even know the Pan-Am games were held in 2007.

Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.

Toronto's Pan Am games bid is the Canadian sporting equivalent of the old Mad TV bit.




We 'won' the right to host an event that nobody cares about anyways.

[drewski]

some people have pointed out that the facilities for the PAG aren't good enough for the Olympics, but if done right (ie. planned with expansion in mind), they could definitely help with future Olympic bids

[Dirk Diggler]

Yes, it's either that or Toronto stays a virgin, which it's getting way too old to be. Gotta get into the game at some point.

Or should the city keep mounting unsuccessful Olympic bids forever?

Exactly ... I think someone forgot to tell Rio that the Pan Am games is beneath them ... which it should be considering how they are hosting the World Cup and the Olympics where as the biggest event we have hosted is the Fifa U20 World Cup lol.

[boban]

Exactly ... I think someone forgot to tell Rio that the Pan Am games is beneath them ... which it should be considering how they are hosting the World Cup and the Olympics where as the biggest event we have hosted is the Fifa U20 World Cup lol.

+1

[Pookie]

i wonder about BMO Field expansion... it would be a great way to get expansion without MLSE having to pay a cent. They could play the soccer there , without the track around the field that the Hamilton stadium is supposed to have.

I think you are on the right track with expansion.

I just hope that they don't get greedy with the money and build something in the 40k-50k range.

28-30k is what I'd consider ideal with upgrades to washroom facilities included in that project.

[billyfly]

^Yeah some kind of pisser where I don't have to leave my seat.

[rocker]

^Yeah some kind of pisser where I don't have to leave my seat.

great! tubes under the seat... pull it up, stick it in, and whiz!
or maybe troughs in front of every row. south end guys are already standing up!

[Mulder]

what if this bid takes the Pan-Am games to the next level?

just like Canada did with the U-20 world cup.


think outside the box. If Toronto nails this, then a commonwealth games or even the olympics is feasible.

Exactly, if Torontians go around saying they don't care about the Pam-Am Games. It won't look good in the eyes of the IOC.

They won't see it as "Toronto doesn't care about these games because they are not the olympics"

They'll see "Toronto doesn't care about amutuer sports, why should they host the biggest amutuer sports event in the world?"

[ag futbol]

Maybe it's just me, but i hold the IOC in the lowest esteme possible. Puture taking 200 Jack Warner's and putting them in a room ... It's a disgrace that the Olympics continue to fly the "amateur" banner like it's something sacred while the bureaucrats suck the money away that should be going to the average athlete to help make ends meet.

Personally, regardless of what this city wins there's a lot more things that going to make it world class / dumpy rather than a sporting event. A olympic legacy won't even come close to saving us from an underbuilt subway and another 10 years of condo developer madness downtown.

[DichioTFC]

Toronto got turned down by all the attractive girls at the bar and now they have decided to settle for the overweight homely looking girl because he knows she wont say no.

We 'won' the right to host an event that nobody cares about anyways.

True, nobody cares about the Pan Am Games, but there will be a legacy leftover from the Games (revitalized waterfront, East End BMO expansion, new stadium in Hamilton, social housing) and its the good outcomes that I think most people are happiest with. It's basically Olympics-style legacy without the Olympic-style leftover debt.

[Keystone FC]

True, nobody cares about the Pan Am Games, but there will be a legacy leftover from the Games (revitalized waterfront, East End BMO expansion, new stadium in Hamilton, social housing) and its the good outcomes that I think most people are happiest with. It's basically Olympics-style legacy without the Olympic-style leftover debt.

Not only that but this is the Pan Am Games. Athletes AND people from North and South America will come into Toronto and the surrounding areas. This means money spent in Toronto and the rest of Horseshoe. BIG money. Hotels, resturants, night clubs, bars, and pubs will see an influx of cash for these games.
And like you said there will be a 'legacy' of sorts that will need to be kept up for future endevors which traslates into jobs and employment.

[Fort York Redcoat]

without the Olympic-style leftover debt.

We don't know that yet.

Money. Jobs. Yay.

I'm still not watching a minute of it. So who does? I mean outside of family of athletes?

[C.Ronaldo]

not even a minute?

your not interested in watching futsal at all?

or beach volleyball?
speed blading?
BMX?


come on, thats not fair to say. These are still our Cdn athletes that need our support

We don't know that yet.

Money. Jobs. Yay.

I'm still not watching a minute of it. So who does? I mean outside of family of athletes?

[C.Ronaldo]

Not only that but this is the Pan Am Games. Athletes AND people from North and South America will come into Toronto and the surrounding areas. This means money spent in Toronto and the rest of Horseshoe. BIG money. Hotels, resturants, night clubs, bars, and pubs will see an influx of cash for these games.
And like you said there will be a 'legacy' of sorts that will need to be kept up for future endevors which traslates into jobs and employment.

and people say its only family and friends.

I think they fail to realise, thats A LOT of family and friends. A LOT MORE than we currently get.

And these are all people in spending moods.


Win or Lose, someone is buying more than one beer to celebrate or ease the pain.