Soccer more popular than CFL

[Beach_Red]

Yesterday in another thread I said that there could be a Canadian soccer league to rival the CFL soon - 8 -10 teams across the country, good TV ratings, filling stadiums as big as CFL stadiums, $4-5 million dollar payrolls, etc.

And today the Toronto Star runs the results of a survey by the University of Lethbridge that offers some stats to back that up.

Among teenagers, soccer (it doesn't specify a league) is followed "very" or "fairly" closely by 18% while the CFL only gets 14%. Going by city, only Ottawa (?) and Edmonton show higher rates for the CFL over soccer. The NFL does score slightly higher nationally at 19%. In Toronto the numbers for soccer are 25% and for the CFL 8%.

This isn't mean to bash the CFL, I like the league, but just to show that the potential for a Canadian soccer league of the same size is quite possible.

The article is here, http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/678277, but the online version doesn't have the handy chart.

[Cashcleaner]

^ I wouldn't disagree with those numbers. The league (CFL) is still going incredibly strong at the moment with attendance and overall revenue up all across the board, and I think Canadian Football and soccer can co-exist quite happily, but soccer does indeed have a greater potential for growth out of the two. If anything, baseball might be the sport that starts slipping up here in Canada.

[AdamZ]

it's possible, but I don't think having an independent Canadian league is really that great of an idea.

What I think would be great is if the MLS worked like this:

American League 1 teams play each other, the top teams move on to a playoff round, and meet teams who advanced from American League 2.

The Canadian League, which, say, consists of Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton... Winnipeg? Victoria? Halifax? starts its season a little later than the American Leagues because it's going to be shorter, and the top two teams move on to the playoffs, at which point there is a random draw to determine who plays who. Screw inter-league play during the regular season.

That Canadian League would have the financial security of being part of an organization the size of MLS (do you want the CSA operating our league?), but independent enough that it would garner interest as a Canadian league in its own right, and should probably at least equal the CFL in TV ratings and merchandising etc. TFC is already bigger than the Argos... I mean, I know a lot of people who only follow the Stamps because they kinda like football and because tickets are dirt cheap.

As for that article, it's more than a little panicky about hockey in Canada, hockey is still nationally by far the most popular sport, even among younger people. Baseball's days are numbered, I think, and remember that teenagers are much more likely to side with the NFL over the CFL (19% is a high number compared to the overall number of NFL fans in Canada, not to mention the Grey Cup routinely trumps the Superbowl on TV) just because they tend to be gloryhunters at a younger age and will gravitate towards the bigger league. Just from personal experience I know five people who used to hate the CFL who are now all Rider fans, and only casually follow the NFL.

[rocker]

CFL has maxed out its support tho... soccer can only go up.

to be honest, it's a sport with lower public participation compared to hockey and soccer in this country, and it's living off the general interest in the sport through the NFL.

I think in a generation soccer could easily surpass the CFL here in ratings and interest, particularly as demographics shift. I just don't see immigrants from Asia, Europe, India, and the Middle East taking up Canadian football or developing an interest in it, particularly with more soccer options locally.

The CFL has always been more of a whitebread 5th-generation-Canadian sport anyways. I can't see it standing up in 20 years to soccer.

[TFC07]

Only people who watch CFL games in GTA (I can't speak for rest of Canada) are old folks and rednecks. Don't be surprise in next 20 years to see Argos and Blue Jays leaving Toronto while Toronto Raptors become most supported team in GTA. Maple Leafs are going to lose a lot of support in GTA simply because city's demographic. TFC is a big question mark IMO. If this team is still lead by British management, then the support isn't going to grow much in GTA.

[Rampage]

Only people who watch CFL games in GTA (I can't speak for rest of Canada) are old folks and rednecks. Don't be surprise in next 20 years to see Argos and Blue Jays leaving Toronto while Toronto Raptors become most supported team in GTA. Maple Leafs are going to lose a lot of support in GTA simply because city's demographic. TFC is a big question mark IMO. If this team is still lead by British management, then the support isn't going to grow much in GTA.

Big Raptors fan? I find the fan base no stronger than the Jays or Argos. The tv #'s are weak. I wonder how many of the 82 games will be on regular cable this season?

[TFC07]

Big Raptors fan?

Yeah, but however, there was a survey done recently saying basketball is most supported sport in teenage age group (future of our society) in GTA.

[Rampage]

^^^ that's great. I don't put much stock into surveys. At the same time, I wonder why the Canadian basketball program seems to be regressing?

[AdamZ]

Wow, some crazy things being said about the CFL here. I'm guessing it's because you're in Argos territory and they're hardly all that popular in Toronto from what I gather.

I can tell you that there are plenty of immigrants who go to McMahon stadium or watch the games on TV and have become CFL fans. I understand that if you're from Toronto you have a different image of the CFL, but the CFL is hardly this minnow sport some of you are making it out to be.

(I can't speak for rest of Canada)

well, you acknowledge this at least. Yeah, old folks and 'rednecks' make up a big part of the football audience in the rest of Canada as well, but a fair number of youth are interested as well, certainly more than are interested in soccer. Toronto is a different story entirely.

[AdamZ]

Yeah, but however, there was a survey done recently saying basketball is most supported sport in teenage age group (future of our society) in GTA.

doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication of trends, even proper studies are suspect IMO. Basketball ratings are weak, very few people really care at all in Canada, Toronto has the biggest fanbase and even that isn't so great. I doubt even Montreal or Vancouver could support a basketball franchise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but baseball ratings and such are still bigger than basketball's, right? The Raptors may be a sustainable franchise, but don't give 'em too much credit. The Leafs are never going to be overtaken as the city's biggest and most supported franchise.

[TFC07]

^^^ that's great. I don't put much stock into surveys. At the same time, I wonder why the Canadian basketball program seems to be regressing?

Canadian basketball is run by bunch of idiots. (they're no different than CSA)...but however, Canada is starting to produce quality players.

Canada's Elite team steamrolling American competition

Link: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...story/11982755

Good read.

[tfcleeds]

Only people who watch CFL games in GTA (I can't speak for rest of Canada) are old folks and rednecks. Don't be surprise in next 20 years to see Argos and Blue Jays leaving Toronto while Toronto Raptors become most supported team in GTA. Maple Leafs are going to lose a lot of support in GTA simply because city's demographic. TFC is a big question mark IMO. If this team is still lead by British management, then the support isn't going to grow much in GTA.

Interesting why you would think this. The fact that the team is under "British management" now certainly hasn't hurt TFC's growth up until this point. At BMO on gameday, you see a mosaic of all Toronto's ethnic communities. The fact that this team is uniting Torontonians behind one club should render what nationality our manager or GM is in future years meaningless.

What will determine TFC's long-term success is its on-field performance.

[Rampage]

Wow, some crazy things being said about the CFL here. I'm guessing it's because you're in Argos territory and they're hardly all that popular in Toronto from what I gather.

I can tell you that there are plenty of immigrants who go to McMahon stadium or watch the games on TV and have become CFL fans. I understand that if you're from Toronto you have a different image of the CFL, but the CFL is hardly this minnow sport some of you are making it out to be.



well, you acknowledge this at least. Yeah, old folks and 'rednecks' make up a big part of the football audience in the rest of Canada as well, but a fair number of youth are interested as well, certainly more than are interested in soccer. Toronto is a different story entirely.

I'd say in T.O., the CFL is looked @ as 2nd rate. However the Argos average about 30,000, get good tv #'s, get substantial media attention.

[TFC07]

doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication.

Let me ask you this: How many people do you see in GTA wearing hockey or Canadian football jerseys? I sure plenty of people wearing basketball and soccer jerseys. Can you say the same about football or hockey?

How many people do you see in GTA playing hockey and football compare to basketball and soccer?

[Rampage]

doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication of trends, even proper studies are suspect IMO. Basketball ratings are weak, very few people really care at all in Canada, Toronto has the biggest fanbase and even that isn't so great. I doubt even Montreal or Vancouver could support a basketball franchise.

+1. I could see Canada winning something in soccer or baseball before basketball. I highly doubt Montreal could support and NBA team-especially going head-to-head with the Habs.

[AdamZ]

Let me ask you this: How many people do you see in GTA wearing hockey or Canadian football jerseys? I sure plenty of people wearing basketball and soccer jerseys. Can you say the same about football or hockey?

How many people do you see in GTA playing hockey and football compare to basketball and soccer?

I only visit Toronto sporadically so I can't say I'm an authority on this, but considering I see plenty of Leafs jerseys here in off-season in Flames territory I really doubt there are more people out in Raptors jerseys than Leafs jerseys in Toronto. Maybe I'm wrong though, but still TV numbers don't lie for the Leafs and they do sell a lot and are extremely profitable I'm pretty sure, I really don't think there's any comparison to the Raptors. When the Raptors come close to drawing a million viewers on TV, then we'll talk.

[TFC07]

Interesting why you would think this. The fact that the team is under "British management" now certainly hasn't hurt TFC's growth up until this point. At BMO on gameday, you see a mosaic of all Toronto's ethnic communities. The fact that this team is uniting Torontonians behind one club should render what nationality our manager or GM is in future years meaningless.

What will determine TFC's long-term success is its on-field performance.

LMAO! I try to convince my friends (all different races) come watch TFC games and all of them laughed at me.

I have been to TFC games in past, there's no way TFC fanbase is multicultural. Go to a Raptors game and come back say TFC fanbase is multicultural.

[ilikemusic]

Im 24 and never met an Argo fan in my age group until about a month ago.

Growing up, I didnt know anybody who was a self described 'Argo fan'.

Leaf fan, Jays fan, Raptors fan, 'insert team name here' fan, but not once did I come across somebody who called themselves an Argo fan.

I personally view the CFL as a bit of a joke league, but I try not to hate on it. I just dont bother with it.

[Rampage]

Let me ask you this: How many people do you see in GTA wearing hockey or Canadian football jerseys? I sure plenty of people wearing basketball and soccer jerseys. Can you say the same about football or hockey?

How many people do you see in GTA playing hockey and football compare to basketball and soccer?

Well football is too physical; therefore it's not for everybody. Also, no women play the sport. I live in Durham where hockey seems to be king. This area has always produced good hockey talent. I see Leafs jerseys all the time.

[TFC07]

doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication of trends, even proper studies are suspect IMO. Basketball ratings are weak, very few people really care at all in Canada, Toronto has the biggest fanbase and even that isn't so great. I doubt even Montreal or Vancouver could support a basketball franchise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but baseball ratings and such are still bigger than basketball's, right? The Raptors may be a sustainable franchise, but don't give 'em too much credit. The Leafs are never going to be overtaken as the city's biggest and most supported franchise.

By using your logic, soccer has weak fanbase in GTA based on their TFC TV ratings.

If the Leafs are not going to be overtaken, then why is MLSE worried about Maple Leafs fanbase in the future? Why is Maple Leafs trying so hard to target minorities to watch Maple Leafs?

[Rampage]

Canadian basketball is run by bunch of idiots. (they're no different than CSA)...but however, Canada is starting to produce quality players.

Canada's Elite team steamrolling American competition

Link: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...story/11982755

Good read.

Good article, thanks I had no idea. Strange how it's an American website, not a Canadian one.

[AdamZ]

Im 24 and never met an Argo fan in my age group until about a month ago.

Growing up, I didnt know anybody who was a self described 'Argo fan'.

Leaf fan, Jays fan, Raptors fan, 'insert team name here' fan, but not once did I come across somebody who called themselves an Argo fan.

I personally view the CFL as a bit of a joke league, but I try not to hate on it. I just dont bother with it.

but it's not really a joke league- it's the second most followed in the country and extremely popular in the prairie provinces. The talent level is not particularly high, sure, but objectively speaking it's a successful league and there seems to be an overall rise of interest in the CFL recently, although probably not in Toronto.

[AdamZ]

I have been to TFC games in past, there's no way TFC fanbase is multicultural. .

is that a joke? seriously?

I have watched every game on TV and always see a multitude of ethnicities in the stands. It may be predominantly white, but it is still multicultural.

[TFC07]

I only visit Toronto sporadically so I can't say I'm an authority on this, but considering I see plenty of Leafs jerseys here in off-season in Flames territory I really doubt there are more people out in Raptors jerseys than Leafs jerseys in Toronto. Maybe I'm wrong though, but still TV numbers don't lie for the Leafs and they do sell a lot and are extremely profitable I'm pretty sure, I really don't think there's any comparison to the Raptors. When the Raptors come close to drawing a million viewers on TV, then we'll talk.

I guess you haven't been to Toronto lately.

[ilikemusic]

but it's not really a joke league- it's the second most followed in the country and extremely popular in the prairie provinces. The talent level is not particularly high, sure, but objectively speaking it's a successful league and there seems to be an overall rise of interest in the CFL recently, although probably not in Toronto.

Whats popular in the praries has probably a little less than zero influence on me.

Actually, it probably has a negative influence. If it's popular out west, there must be something wrong with it.

Maybe if the Argos werent such a laughing stock I would care, but even when they were winning Cups with Flutie and then with Allen, I still didnt really care.

Maybe its just a Toronto thing, but if we arent beating American teams, I dont really care.

[TFC07]

is that a joke? seriously?

I have watched every game on TV and always see a multitude of ethnicities in the stands. It may be predominantly white, but it is still multicultural.

You should actually go to BMO field and then go to ACC for a Raptors game and see it yourself. TFC fanbase is no where multicultural as Raptors fanbase.

[AdamZ]

You should actually go to BMO field and then go to ACC for a Raptors game and see it yourself. TFC fanbase is no where multicultural as Raptors fanbase.

I didn't say it was as multicultural as the Raptors fanbase. I said it most definitely IS multicultural, and that's not really something TFC need to worry about atm. I have no interest in going to the ACC for anything except a Flames game if I happen to be there at the time.

By using your logic, soccer has weak fanbase in GTA based on their TFC TV ratings.

If the Leafs are not going to be overtaken, then why is MLSE worried about Maple Leafs fanbase in the future? Why is Maple Leafs trying so hard to target minorities to watch Maple Leafs?

Because they want growth, they don't want a drop in interest. That doesn't mean they're afraid the freakin' Raptors will become a bigger franchise than the Leafs.

These days you need to have some interest outside your city as well. Most Canadians couldn't give less of a sh-t about the Raptors or NBA, and there is no way in hell the Raptors are selling more merch than the Leafs or that their TV rights cost anything similar, or that they're making as much profit.

and yes, TFC have poor ratings. The fact that for more than one game only 30,000 or so outside the stadium watched a match (in the entire country, even less in GTA) is not a good thing to me. TFC are still a fringe sport, they have a good following for a soccer team, but that's about it. Compare it to the following any Championship or Premiership team have in England and you'll see the massive difference.

Let's see the size of the parades if the Leafs win the Stanley Cup vs. TFC winning the MLS Cup or the Raptors winning whatever the hell the NBA has.

[mmmikey]

LMAO! I try to convince my friends (all different races) come watch TFC games and all of them laughed at me.

I have been to TFC games in past, there's no way TFC fanbase is multicultural. Go to a Raptors game and come back say TFC fanbase is multicultural.

are u sitting in some all english section im not aware of? i go and hear portugese, italian, spanish being spoken.. many ppl with latin origins, black, brown, lots of asians... just because there are still white ppl there it doesn't mean its not multicultural. there IS alot of white ppl in the city after all, especially the surrounding suburbs. especially those of european decent will be huge footie fans. if your friends will only go to games if the racial demographics are acceptable to them, then they are not the type of fans i would want to sit with.

[Cashcleaner]

Much like the current healthcare debate going on in the US, this argument is full of misinformation and bias.

Firstly, the average attandence for CFL clubs is around 25,000-30,000 for regular season matches. Compare that to average MLS attendance numbers.

Secondly, the CFL grosses more overall revenue than MLS. If CFL is second-rate, what does that make MLS?

Thirdly, who in their right mind would claim that Argos fans are not as ethnically diverse as Toronto FC? From the games I've attended, I'd say both fanbases are equally multicultural.

Both sports are doing quite well here in Toronto. The leg-up that soccer has is that it's popularity is on the grow, especially given the fact that our urban areas here in Canada are filling up with immigrants from countries where soccer is the most popular sport - if not the only sport played to any great extent.

[CretanBull]

I think that the trend that this survey points to is true, but the survey itself is flawed. A "soccer" (generic, essentially covering dozens of leagues) vs. "CFL" (specific league) is hardly fair. Something like "soccer" vs. "football" or "MLS" vs. "CFL" would be more fair.