MLS vs. European Leagues

[marquis]

I know it's been discussed several times, but I think we need to look at it from a different perspective. Instead of comparing MLS to Premiership or La Liga and share a good laugh, we should look at lower levels national leagues that actually have a decent quality; I think it's unfair to compare MLS with Championship or Serie B, simply because MLS is the top league in North America.

Here are my rankings, I would place MLS on the 3rd level. Leagues in the third level often produce UEFA Cup winners, but are not competitive in Champions League; In my opinion, Houston, DC teams of past years could compete for UEFA CUP.

Top level:
Spain
Italy
England

Second Level
Germany
France
Portugal

Third level (examples)
Holland
Greece
Turkey
Best of Eastern Europe (Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Czech Rep., Romania, etc)
Belgium
MLS

Fourth Level (examples)
Ireland
Norway
Denmark
Sweden
Other Easter European (Bulgaria, Hungary, etc)
Austria
Baltic Countries

Fifth Level (examples)
Albania
Armenia
Moldova
Luxembourg
etc.

[fdasilva]

MLS teams could compete in the UEFA cup, but they would have to start in the 1st round, and probably won't get any farther than the group stage or the previous elimination round.

Therefore, I do think that the third level is pretty accurate for MLS, but they wouldn't be at the top of the third, not by a long shot.

[Shakes McQueen]

You would place MLS clubs on par with leagues that have teams like Ajax, PSV, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, Galatasaray, Zenit St. Petersburg, CSKA Moscow, and so on?

I wouldn't. I would place good MLS clubs on par with the bottom half of the Coca-Cola Championship table, and the rest maybe on par with League One.

- Scott

[H Bomb]

My problem with that rankings is that it doesnt take into account the many leagues in European countries. The Championship is better than MLS. Serie B and ..the second division of spanish football probably are too. How bout Germany's second div?

[Shakes McQueen]

My problem with that rankings is that it doesnt take into account the many leagues in European countries. The Championship is better than MLS. Serie B and ..the second division of spanish football probably are too. How bout Germany's second div?

I think this is probably under-selling MLS - there are a few teams in the CCC, that I think a good MLS club could probably beat on a good day. And I think quite a few MLS clubs would likely fit in fine in Serie B. And certainly in Germany's 2nd Div.

Of course, a team like New York would probably get beaten by a League One team in the relegation zone - but you don't think a Chivas, or Houston might be competitive against Charlton, or Norwich?

- Scott

[flatpicker]

I've always looked at MLS as England League One level.
And perhaps with one or two exceptions that would be lower Championship.


But, in a way, this isn't such a bad thing.
Look at it this way:
MLS may be on par with League One right now... but League One will always be League One.
At least MLS has a chance to grow into a higher level of football.
With the right adjustments from the league, and more revenue... MLS could very realistically grow into Championship level play.

Perhaps it could even do slightly better than that if all the stars and moons aligned just right.
But that would take probably another 10-15 years.

Sport can really take off in a country(s) if the right pieces are in place.
Look at China and Yao Ming.
Football was way bigger than basketball until Ming came along... then BOOM! Basketball is huge there.
All it took was that one superstar to suddenly switch peoples focus.

I'm really rambling on here...
My point is, you never know what may occur...
MLS is at level 3 right now... but you never know where it might go.

[BC101]

I've always looked at MLS as England League One level.
And perhaps with one or two exceptions that would be lower Championship.


But, in a way, this isn't such a bad thing.
Look at it this way:
MLS may be on par with League One right now... but League One will always be League One.
At least MLS has a chance to grow into a higher level of football.
With the right adjustments from the league, and more revenue... MLS could very realistically grow into Championship level play.

Perhaps it could even do slightly better than that if all the stars and moons aligned just right.
But that would take probably another 10-15 years.

Sport can really take off in a country(s) if the right pieces are in place.
Look at China and Yao Ming.
Football was way bigger than basketball until Ming came along.
All it took was that one superstar to suddenly switch peoples focus.

I'm really rambling on here...
My point is, you never know what may occur...
MLS is at level 3 right now... but you never know where it might go.

Nah it wasn't LOL... sorry not to undermine you but it really wasn't... They loved Basketball before him and will love it WELL after him. Just a side note. Footy is still bigger BTW but horse racing is still king.

[flatpicker]

^ well, I'm no China expert... that's for sure!

I recall seeing on CBC just a day ago where they said just that.
But maybe CBC didn't research their story so well.

But I would at least think it reached a much higher level once Ming came on the scene, did it not???


Anyway... my example may have been lousy,
My point is, crazy and unexpected things happen that can quickly alter the state of things.
MLS may not be at a high level now, but the seed is there for much bigger things if the right elements fall into place.

[James17930]

Not trying to be a dick, but this really matter? Really? Why do we have to compare it all the time? Why can't MLS just be MLS and be done with it?

Besides, in order to do such a comparison, you'd have to make way too many generalizations and it'd be impossible to come up with a succinct answer anyway. Because remember, as close as MLS is up and down the table, there's still a pretty big difference between Houston and NYRB. Who's to say where the top teams in MLS rank?

By that same token, are some of the lower teams in the Prem, or the Bundesliga, or Spain, or France, really better than DC United or Houston? I think it would be hard to make that argument.

So -- let's not worry about it. Let's just enjoy TFC and the quirkiness of MLS, hope there's a great new CBA next year which propels the league forward even more and if MLS clubs do ever make it to the Club World Cup we can truly get a sense of where they stand competitively on the world stage.

[BC101]

^ well, I'm no China expert... that's for sure!

But it reached a much higher level once Ming came on the scene, did it not???

nah just made more fans of whatever team it is he plays for... Houston I think. As opposed to all the LA fans that floated around before.

[torontocelt]

Anything can happen in cup games that is for sure but I do not think that any team in the MLS could compete for the UEFA cup. The MLS from what I have seen would be a fourth level league, the MLS is no where near the standard of some of those countries in the 3rd level. Like I said anything can happen in cup games but I have seen all of the MLS teams now and I have yet to see a current team which I would think could hold there in against many of the top third level teams.

[flatpicker]

nah just made more fans of whatever team it is he plays for... Houston I think. As opposed to all the LA fans that floated around before.

you can blame CBC for misinforming me...

I don't pay much attention to basketball anyway... so what do I know??!!

[marquis]

You would place MLS clubs on par with leagues that have teams like Ajax, PSV, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, Galatasaray, Zenit St. Petersburg, CSKA Moscow, and so on?

I wouldn't. I would place good MLS clubs on par with the bottom half of the Coca-Cola Championship table, and the rest maybe on par with League One.

- Scott

Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).
My intention was actually to compare the average level of play in those leagues with MLS, and not to single out best teams. Do you honestly believe that the overall quality of footbal in Greece, Turkey or Russia is superior to MLS? I don't.

[marquis]

My problem with that rankings is that it doesnt take into account the many leagues in European countries. The Championship is better than MLS. Serie B and ..the second division of spanish football probably are too. How bout Germany's second div?

I only considered first leagues, as MLS is the top league in NA.

[jloome]

Not trying to be a dick, but this really matter? Really? Why do we have to compare it all the time? Why can't MLS just be MLS and be done with it?

Besides, in order to do such a comparison, you'd have to make way too many generalizations and it'd be impossible to come up with a succinct answer anyway. Because remember, as close as MLS is up and down the table, there's still a pretty big difference between Houston and NYRB. Who's to say where the top teams in MLS rank?

By that same token, are some of the lower teams in the Prem, or the Bundesliga, or Spain, or France, really better than DC United or Houston? I think it would be hard to make that argument.

So -- let's not worry about it. Let's just enjoy TFC and the quirkiness of MLS, hope there's a great new CBA next year which propels the league forward even more and if MLS clubs do ever make it to the Club World Cup we can truly get a sense of where they stand competitively on the world stage.

Because some things are just worth discussing; the relative reputation of the league, as has been noted numerous times, greatly affects who will play here.

Plus, it becomes relevant when talking about the aforementioned CBA; consider that while MLS doesn't rank in the top 10 of leagues most of the time, it does rank there for attendance. So it's relative reputation can also be considered with respect to whether franchises are spending enough, when weighed against fan support.

Me, I figure the MLS is as disparate as it gets. THe lowest talent end of the league includes guys who might get cut from semi-pro regional leagues in England. The upper end of talent includes guys who could likely compete at a middling Premiership club.

The balance of play?

1 good club versus another good club = upper end of CCC, lower end of prem.

1 good club versus one bad club - middle of ccc all the way down to middle of league one

1 bad club versus one bad club = league two/conference level.

It's that broad.

[torontocelt]

Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).
My intention was actually to compare the average level of play in those leagues with MLS, and not to single out best teams. Do you honestly believe that the overall quality of footbal in Greece, Turkey or Russia is superior to MLS? I don't.

How much Greek, Turkish and Russian football do you watch? All three of these leagues have some top teams where any team in the world would struggle to come away with a win. The atmospheres in some of the stadiums in these countries coupled with either blistering heat or in the case of Russia severe cold makes these places very difficult to go to. When you look at the scalps that these leagues take on a yearly basis in European competition you cannot help but be impressed. The best MLS teams are not on a par with the best teams in these leagues and they never will be, money will dictate that as well as football just not being as popular here as it is in those other countries.

[jloome]

Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).
My intention was actually to compare the average level of play in those leagues with MLS, and not to single out best teams. Do you honestly believe that the overall quality of footbal in Greece, Turkey or Russia is superior to MLS? I don't.

Russia's overall quality is likely higher, as they pay susbtantially higher salaries. I lived in greece for a year-and-a-half nad recall it as generally competent pro footie, like league one or swedish league. Similar to MLS is likely the answer; Turkey has several big, rich clubs and a generally much more talented league than MLS.

[torontocelt]

Ajax, PSV, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, Galatasaray, Zenit St. Petersburg, CSKA Moscow, and so on?Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).

This is nonsense.

[james]

First off MLS is currently having a problem competting in Concacaf Champions League let alone UEFA Cup.

Big reason we would have problems competting on a world stage is are low salary Cap. To be compettitive in the future they must spend more money.

Now that said MLS teams could compete in many leagues in Europe such as in Greece or Turkey, or Croatia or Denmark or even likes of maybe Scotland or Portugal...however i dont think MLS teams would ever win any of these leagues tittles currently. Reason being everyone of these leagues have something in common, they all seem to have 2 or 3 clubs who play in big stadiums and pay lots of money, while the rest of the teams in the leagues play in front of like 5,000 fans or lower, using Greece and even Portuagal as examples. Could MLS clubs compete for say 4th or 5th place in these leagues....id say yes. Could MLS teams compete for first place in these leagues against teams like Galatasary or Porto or Olimpiakos....id say no way. Could MLS teams Compete in UEFA with the best teams of all these Euro leagues...id say no. Not while keeping these low salaries!!

[H Bomb]

I think this is probably under-selling MLS - there are a few teams in the CCC, that I think a good MLS club could probably beat on a good day. And I think quite a few MLS clubs would likely fit in fine in Serie B. And certainly in Germany's 2nd Div.

Of course, a team like New York would probably get beaten by a League One team in the relegation zone - but you don't think a Chivas, or Houston might be competitive against Charlton, or Norwich?

- Scott

Competitive yes...but consistently as good, not at all.

I only considered first leagues, as MLS is the top league in NA.

And this is my point...many countries have second leagues that are better than our first, making those other comparisons difficult

[james]

i think a better way to determine how could MLS teams compete in Europe is to look at how much money teams spend on players, how much revenue do the teams bring in and how much fans come to the games. All though big pockets doesnt mean you will be a winner, it deffinitly does help.

[druid]

Ah... no.

Ever had a look at Shakhtar Donetsk's squad? Zenit's or CSKA's? I'd give my left nut for some of their players to be on our squad.

Teams from Holland, Greece, Turkey, Scotland, Russia, and the Ukraine are capable of placing in the group phase of the Champions League and making the round of 16. And most of the league's I've mentioned have done so over the last ten years.

We'd be below the Portugal, Holland, Scotland, Russia, Ukraine, Belgium tier. Probably below Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Czech Republic.

Possibly around Slovakia, Lithuania, Hungary, Iceland level. Probably about or above Ireland.

[EAsoccer]

The best way to determine the strength of the MLS compared to other leagues is to take individual teams in those leagues and match their lineups against MLS squads. A lot of people like to look at one off results in friendlies that have no meaning. Matching up player v player at each position is more accurate. Many of the top European leagues MLS is being compared to in this thread have starting XI's that represent their national teams.

4 players from the MLS champions Houston Dynamo represent their countries.

[ExiledRed]

The best MLS squads, can't maintain their consistency due to an enforced lack of depth.

The top MLS squad of any given season is capable of playing any middle EPL team, and holding it's own, but it couldn't do it again two weeks later.

[kodiakTFC]

Outside of the top four teams in Portugal, MLS teams are better than that league.

[Antoshka]

outside the top best teams in israel MLS teams are better than that league...

i think overall what i noticed about mls is the really fast speed of the players and just general play. physicality of players seem at least at par or better than back home. but the technical skills are NOWHERE near. aweful passes, terrible crosses, and the general inability to properly build an attack... oh and of course the total defensive shambles that is rampant in MLS. theres alot of individual players spread out across teams in this league that are several levels above the rest, which make this league seem alot better than it is.

[Cashcleaner]

I've always looked at MLS as England League One level.
And perhaps with one or two exceptions that would be lower Championship.

But, in a way, this isn't such a bad thing.
Look at it this way:
MLS may be on par with League One right now... but League One will always be League One.

At least MLS has a chance to grow into a higher level of football.
With the right adjustments from the league, and more revenue... MLS could very realistically grow into Championship level play.

First off; I agree with your assessment about League One/Championship and MLS. On a team-by-team basis, we're certainly not at Premiership level, but probably fit in nicely anywhere from mid-table League One to high-table Championship.

Secondly; like you said, MLS has the ability to grow, expand, and develop its overall quality while the lower tier leagues in the UK will always have the Premiership to look up to. We're not playing at Premiership level for the most part yet, but if we continue on with an aim to put together the most competitive soccer league in the world - which SHOULD be our priority if it's not - then we just might surpass all expectations.

[flatpicker]

^ yup... you furthered my point nicely.

[a_billi]

I
Top level:
Spain
Italy
England

Second Level
Germany
France
Portugal

Third level (examples)
Holland
Greece
Turkey
Best of Eastern Europe (Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Czech Rep., Romania, etc)
Belgium
MLS
.

I can promise you no MLS team on there very best day could beat, CSKA Moscow, Olympiacos, Ajax, Galatarsry. Theyd get smacked and embarrassed. In 10-15 years maybe but now no.

[james]

I can promise you no MLS team on there very best day could beat, CSKA Moscow, Olympiacos, Ajax, Galatarsry. Theyd get smacked and embarrassed. In 10-15 years maybe but now no.

MLS teams can often play a one off good match against teams like these, they can just never hold there own in the long run. Id say if you were to put a team like CSKA or Galatsary or Olympacos in the MLS for 1 season id say these teams would have some ties and maybe a few loses, but over the course of the season ya these teams would win the MLS league tittle probably quite alot of points ahead of any other team in MLS.