Protest and debate thread...

[Pookie]

Dear Paul,

I think for the most part, many of us agree that MLSE is a business and as such is entitled to profits. If you didn't make a profit, we wouldn't have a team. We want you to be successful.

We want this team to win. I have to believe you do too. Winning is good for business.

There are few events that have happened that need to be considered together.

1. The failure to sign a DP
2. The plastic pitch
3. The Real Madrid Friendly
4. The on field performance
5. The feeling of being "used"

These are not separate events. I firmly believe they are connected.

We understand it is tough to get players to come here. Many have publicly stated that they do not want to play here. Beckham never stepped foot on our pitch in a league game. Darren Huckerby opted for real grass over our club. Even the "Canadian Saviour" De Rosario hates the field turf.

Those are just a few public examples. I'm sure there are countless private ones as evidenced by the fact that Real Madrid would not allow its players to play here without a grass surface.

By installing a temporary grass surface you are effectively saying a few things.

1. THEIR players (and their knees) are more important than ours
2. Anything can be accomplished if the price is right. Therefore, there is no real hold up to installing grass now it's simply a choice not to
3. The money spent by fans of Real Madrid or other casual soccer fans is more valuable (than the money spent by your regular fans, including those that have sucked up Marlies' tickets for the privilege of seeing this team

Please be clear, it’s not about the aesthetics. It's about being able to attract quality talent which has a direct impact on the performance.

With the exception of the DP, this is a salary capped world. All teams are in a fairly equal position when it comes to contracts. Why would you handicap our team by giving it an inferior surface to play on? Or jeopardize your ability to get a talented player who is concerned about shortening his career on field turf? Do you really think our less humid spring and fall weather is a selling feature?

You told us it was a financial issue with the city. Well, apparently, the City is willing to forgo weeks of rentals while you install a temporary surface for this Real Madrid game. I gather they are getting a share of it.

Truly, how much would it cost to compensate them for "lost revenue" through the winter? The model is there, it's simply a business deal.

If you want to restore some trust and actually improve the product on the field, leverage your investment in this temporary surface and do the right thing.

Make this a permanent fixture until the end of the season. Buy your irrigation system now. Install it under the temporary surface so that it can be kept through this season. Don't throw it away. Use it.

Make 2010 the year that grass is permanent. Announce it now so that it is out there as the transfer window opens. Announce that the grass will remain through the remainder of this season so that Aug 7th is the last time anyone, including current and prospective players will ever see Field Turf.

It can only improve your chances of recruiting your DP (and other talent). It would demonstrate to the players that you actually care about their health and would demonstrate to the fans that you truly are invested in providing championship football in this city.

[Parkdale]

you forgot to sign you name at the bottom of that letter.

[Pookie]

^ name's at the top..

[Parkdale]

okay Mr.Pookie

[ilikemusic]

By installing a temporary grass surface you are effectively saying a few things.

1. THEIR players (and their knees) are more important than ours
2. Anything can be accomplished if the price is right. Therefore, there is no real hold up to installing grass now it's simply a choice not to
3. The money spent by fans of Real Madrid or other casual soccer fans is more valuable (than the money spent by your regular fans, including those that have sucked up Marlies' tickets for the privilege of seeing this team

Well said.

And #3 is what makes me the most angry.

[Torcida]

Paul, doesn't respond to letters, haven't you heard?

[Velvet Elvis]

war ???

[sully]

I think that some people here could think before they type, insults will just push people away.

I think that the organizational culture at the FO has become stagnant and unimaginative. I want an owner that wants to win as much as the fans do, to take chances and to risk their safe profits for greater profits.

I want them to realise that we are now TFC fans first, and football fans second (Real madrid is great..but winning the league is a bigger priority).

I want them to realise that while you have given us logical reasons why there is no grass yet, it's hard to believe that you are doing everything everyday to make it happen.

I want them to realise that we want the best players possible. You have had ample time to use the DP option and we have the salary room.

I hope that the FO becomes involved in this discussion again. The FO helped create what we have, the fans are moving forward, the FO could look at what it really wants and either come with us or not.

[Super]

There is no war between supporters and FO. You'll see this at most clubs in the world: supporters wanting one thing, FO doing another. Sometimes FO will feel the pressure enough to act on some of the things supporters want, but most of the time they have to play a balance game between financial gain and pleasing the supporters. I do not expect our FO to be perfect, but I do feel that we've come to a point where the confidence in the FO has been hurt over a number of issues. Paul, Tom and Mo needs to be more open about the processes of getting what we want (grass, DP, etc.) and if we're not getting any of these they should tell us why. This would help to GREATLY improve the relationship - and we would be a lot easier to deal with as well.

Personally I think that the PR department at TFC needs A LOT of work. Talk to us, let us know what is going on. We're the supporters and invest more of our money and time into the club than anyone else. It's simply the polite thing to do.

[jabbronies]

There is no war between supporters and FO. You'll see this at most clubs in the world: supporters wanting one thing, FO doing another. Sometimes FO will feel the pressure enough to act on some of the things supporters want, but most of the time they have to play a balance game between financial gain and pleasing the supporters. I do not expect our FO to be perfect, but I do feel that we've come to a point where the confidence in the FO has been hurt over a number of issues. Paul, Tom and Mo needs to be more open about the processes of getting what we want (grass, DP, etc.) and if we're not getting any of these they should tell us why. This would help to GREATLY improve the relationship - and we would be a lot easier to deal with as well.

Personally I think that the PR department at TFC needs A LOT of work. Talk to us, let us know what is going on. We're the supporters and invest more of our money and time into the club than anyone else. It's simply the polite thing to do.

You've hit it on the nose sir.

[ilikemusic]

war ???

Huh!

[Pookie]

perhaps "war" was too strong a word but have you read some of the stuff in the "TFC Players and Supporters" thread? Sounded like "war" was an appropriate choice at the time.

Anyways, just looking at the frustrations and business interests from a solution perspective. It's obvious that the current direction isn't the right one.

[flatpicker]

war ???

Huh!

whaaaat is it good for!?

[flatpicker]

btw... not a bad job summing up the need for grass Pookie.

[TorCanSoc]

^LOL. Nothing can be taken seriously on the internets.

What are the odds it blows over for a while after we beat L.A. this weekend?

[K1nG]

Dear Paul,
1. THEIR players (and their knees) are more important than ours
2. Anything can be accomplished if the price is right. Therefore, there is no real hold up to installing grass now it's simply a choice not to
3. The money spent by fans of Real Madrid or other casual soccer fans is more valuable (than the money spent by your regular fans, including those that have sucked up Marlies' tickets for the privilege of seeing this team

PENSION PLAN PUPPETS

[Hooligan69]

PENSION PLAN PUPPETS

100% truth.

[Bluenose13]

There is no war between supporters and FO. You'll see this at most clubs in the world: supporters wanting one thing, FO doing another. Sometimes FO will feel the pressure enough to act on some of the things supporters want, but most of the time they have to play a balance game between financial gain and pleasing the supporters. I do not expect our FO to be perfect, but I do feel that we've come to a point where the confidence in the FO has been hurt over a number of issues. Paul, Tom and Mo needs to be more open about the processes of getting what we want (grass, DP, etc.) and if we're not getting any of these they should tell us why. This would help to GREATLY improve the relationship - and we would be a lot easier to deal with as well.

Personally I think that the PR department at TFC needs A LOT of work. Talk to us, let us know what is going on. We're the supporters and invest more of our money and time into the club than anyone else. It's simply the polite thing to do.

Excellent post

[TFC Cityboy]

There is no war between supporters and FO. You'll see this at most clubs in the world: supporters wanting one thing, FO doing another. Sometimes FO will feel the pressure enough to act on some of the things supporters want, but most of the time they have to play a balance game between financial gain and pleasing the supporters. I do not expect our FO to be perfect, but I do feel that we've come to a point where the confidence in the FO has been hurt over a number of issues. Paul, Tom and Mo needs to be more open about the processes of getting what we want (grass, DP, etc.) and if we're not getting any of these they should tell us why. This would help to GREATLY improve the relationship - and we would be a lot easier to deal with as well.

Personally I think that the PR department at TFC needs A LOT of work. Talk to us, let us know what is going on. We're the supporters and invest more of our money and time into the club than anyone else. It's simply the polite thing to do.

and can anyone explain what Michelle Lissel does to earn her salary as Communications Director?

[RedMAN127]

I appreciate the attempt at a rational discussion on this issue, but in fairness, Paul seems to be supportive of grass, and provided a good perspective on the challenges (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...662#post542662):

"The right solution long term for Toronto FC is a $5Million investment (just at BMO, not including the cost of relocating all the community obligations). Add to that a 12 month maintenance program. That includes underground heading, moisture and air control, drainage, etc. And when we have that...ideally no one plays or trains on that field. It ends up getting used 20 days a year. I'm not sure we can sell that to the city...but thats what we want. Anything less represents a compromise (and a liklihood). So I put this in the "be careful what you wish for" category. Sorry - off topic I know. But having grass for this match demonstrates that if we want to play with the big boys we still have to make some changes."

I think the RM angst may be a different issue, I don't recall any issues with the other friendlies when they were played mid-season, and while moving the league match sucks, I think its the cost that is really at issue (and still speculative).

Based on Pauls comments, would the SG's and unaffiliated supporters be more usefull pushing the city for real turf?

[Pookie]

Quite honestly, I find the above quote by Paul to be disingenuous for a number of reasons.

Cost
Seattle pegged the cost to install an NFL quality natural grass surface at Qwest Field in the area of $1.8M. But hey, I'm not getting the quotes though you might want to call the guys Seattle called and see if they can do it a little cheaper. That's minor but sounds a little high.

Usage
The biggest issue I have with is the downplaying of potential revenue at just 20 home dates. I'm not sure if the intention is to play up the cost and downplay the revenue/usage but we weren't born yesterday.

A natural grass surface will contribute to more usage. While not daily rentals, consider:

- by signing players who would otherwise avoid our plastic surface, you might actually qualify for a playoff (or Champions league) thereby generating additional revenue
- The FIFA U20 event reportedly generated $900k in revenue for the city. How many other national events could you book if you had a suitable surface? Would our World Cup Qualifier have gone to Montreal if you had grass?
- If you can attract teams of the calibre of Real Madrid but needed grass to get them, could that not be a more regular occurrence? I haven't figured out how much you will make off it but I imagine it's more than the $150/hr generated by field rentals

This is more than just 20 dates. There is a competitive advantage you have over other Canadian cities that will soon be your competition. Vancouver is coming. If the come with grass, will they not be in a better position to attract these big events? Become Canada's National Soccer Stadium?

Forget Vancouver, Montreal has a grass surface and just needs to build seats. They are in the Eastern Time Zone. Ottawa's MLS included a stadium with grass and they are also in the Eastern Time Zone. Seriously, you guys want to lose to Eugene Melnyk?

"Hard to sell this to the city"
The claim you "can't sell that to the city" is bogus. Joe Pantalone, the Deputy Mayor was quoted just yesterday saying "We are not averse to grass. We actually think there is a lot of merit to it. But for that to happen, MLSEL must satisfy a lot of conditions."

Those conditions are that you have to shell out money now to provide an alternative facility.

How hard would it be to take the field turf over to Lamport Stadium as a temporary solution until the Lakeshore project is completed?

You've already demonstrated a willingness to tackle the logistics in moving rentals around (I know as my U8 team rental was bumped for a corporate partner... though we did find another time... thanks CJ). You've also tackled the logistics in moving around an MLS game and rescheduling the lives of 20,000 fans.

There is a solution here that works for the city, the team and the fans. Moving to grass contributes to the quality of play immediately and expands the number of players you can target. It gives you additional business opportunities, which the city shares in.

You profit, they profit and the fans might actually start to believe you care about winning as much as they do.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well written and a far better tone than most in the last couple days but in the end nothing new.

But send it. Can't hurt. Good Effort.

[scots17]

haha, we're going to play REAL MADRID and we can't even get through USL teams

[Maple Leaf Red]

PENSION PLAN PUPPETS

These guys?
http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/

[__wowza]

now, im not a RBP member, but i also don't wanna hear any of that "well get the fuck off the board then" talk. RPB's are supporters, and although I don't have season tickets, i'm shelling out an assload to see these guys play every season as a result of that.

in regards to the boycott that's being called for, all i can say is that if it's going to be done, it's gotta be done right. RPB speak for the most loyal and rabid of all TFC, hell even MLS fans. that needs to be remembered, because a protest from you speaks for all of the fans in red, so onto my thoughts. i know my posts can be long as hell, so be patient with me..


think of what you're boycotting:
i've heard a lot of talk over the RM game, the turf, the cost of concessions, cummins, mo, the standard of play, the CBC, MLSE, MLS, etc, etc, etc. if you're going to boycott, you need to pick what your boycotting. anything less will make you look messy and disorganized. that seems to be the way this is headed. look at the boards, pick your battles, stand united on them, and stop trying to wage wars on all fronts. are you mad at the city for the turf? MLSE for the FO?

think of how you're boycotting:
there's also been a lot of talk about what's exactly going to happen to boycott what's been happening to the reds, but nothings held firm yet. are you walking out after the anthem? or you waiting outside and going to jacks? are you wearing bags over your heads and sitting still? there's a game on saturday and if you're going to strike, then you need to start planning now, because you have a little over 48 hours to plan a protest and successfully execute it. if it isn't done correctly, then your protest will be in vein and make it look like the fans don't even know what they want. contacting media sources the night before a protest will yield you NOTHING, so let them know what you want ahead of time, and when they can see it.

structure your arguements:
know who your enemy is. i've seen a lot of fingers pointed in a lot of directions and i think it's about time that someone with a bit of knowledge as to what's going on / whose fault it is needs to step forward and lead. a chains only as strong as it's weekend link, so if you have a few fans running around cussing out cummins for organizing the RM game, then it just makes us all look sloppy.

keep it civil:
i think the worst part is how we've all been coming across. no matter what anyone says, it's true, the reds haven't lived up to their potential. they have the livest audience in the MLS, constant sellouts and we're getting beat by USL teams and scoring a goal a game tops. i think our main message is "look, we support the organization, and a supporter is a supporter through good and bad, but your organization seems to have absolutly no intent to fix any of this". if it sounds like it's an abusive relationship, its because that's what it's turning into. so do us all a favour echo the frustration, not the anger, because no one likes to listen to anger, no matter what the cause is.

[AL-MO]

Do you offer courses on how to properly boycott? If so I am interested in enrolling.

[AL-MO]

With that said you make some good points.

[__wowza]

With that said you make some good points.

if you were in a punk band back in highschool, itd come natrually lol.

[TorCanSoc]

To this point... have we been boycotting boycots?

[Krasno.pL.]

i just want to see somthing bright for this weekend,