Edmonton?

[egoodwin]

http://www.canada.com/future+could+i...675/story.html

``I do believe soccer has really turned the corner in the last couple of years. It's got some legs. I'm convinced it does. I believe in time Edmonton could be a very successful MLS city. I can see it happening but maybe not until 2015,'' he said.

More Canadian interest is great to see

[Stryker]

Alberta is too redneck for soccer. The only interest here in soccer comes from those who are out of province like myself.
I think the Beckham - White Caps friendly last summer only drew around 24 000 and that was on a once in a lifetime type game here.
Soccer in Alberta = imminent FAIL and would be a horrible choice when Montreal and even Ottawa are far more deserving.

[rocker]

didn't Edmonton do well for women's games?

[Beach_Red]

"Edmonton’s Commonwealth Stadium has hosted some of Canada’s biggest soccer events. In 1994, Commonwealth drew close to 50,000 fans for a friendly between Canada and Brazil. In 2002, a crowd of 47,484 saw the FIFA U-19 Women’s World Cup championship match between the U.S. and Canada. Also, last summer, Edmonton was a host city for the FIFA U-20 World Cup in which three matches exceeded 30,000 fans in attendance."

Article is here.

There is no reason why there can't someday (soon) be a Canadian soccer league with exactly the same attendance and TV ratings as the CFL.

[Tricolore#20]

Alberta is too redneck for soccer. The only interest here in soccer comes from those who are out of province like myself.
I think the Beckham - White Caps friendly last summer only drew around 24 000 and that was on a once in a lifetime type game here.
Soccer in Alberta = imminent FAIL and would be a horrible choice when Montreal and even Ottawa are far more deserving.

There were over 37,000 at the Beckham game. I was there, the crowd wasn't too bad considering that outside of Beckham, the Edmonton fans had no rooting interest:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/stor...-edmonton.html

I agree though that Edmonton isn't ready for the MLS yet. Their last venture into outdoor club soccer, the Aviators of the A League, failed miserably. They ended up folding midway through their USL season. Part of the problem was that they played in cavernous Commonwealth Stadium. Drawing 2k in a 60k venue certainly contributed to no atmosphere, and the stadium became a place you didn't want to hang out.

I think Edmonton could one day host an MLS team. Participation in the sport remains strong (although it is a curse at times, because it seems that all these "youth" soccer players and their soccer moms buy all the tickets to NT games or friendlies held in Edmonton), the city has a lot of money, and the population is fairly educated. They will require a soccer specific stadium though, because I doubt the Eskimos would agree to sharing Commonwealth Stadium.

[Shway]

I AGREE!!!!
they should really look into it...
and then Americans will see how the MLS really does need CAnada

[Redcoe15]

There is no reason why there can't someday (soon) be a Canadian soccer league with exactly the same attendance and TV ratings as the CFL.

How about a smallish population base spread thinly across a giant landmass to start with. Plus, Canadian football has over a hundred years of cultivated support with teams in their respetive cities. Not to mention, a needed change in attitute from a mainstream sports media that has grown to worship all things hockey and a few other sports they might be interested in, for which soccer is not on their list.

A real Canadian league, one that compete with MLS on an even level, is a pipe dream at best. It's better to have MLS representation in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal while building from the bottom up professional grassroots soccer outfits at USL levels in places like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc. Then we'll see where it can go.

[Stryker]

How about a smallish population base spread thinly across a giant landmass to start with. Plus, Canadian football has over a hundred years of cultivated support with teams in their respetive cities. Not to mention, a needed change in attitute from a mainstream sports media that has grown to worship all things hockey and a few other sports they might be interested in, for which soccer is not on their list.

A real Canadian league, one that compete with MLS on an even level, is a pipe dream at best. It's better to have MLS representation in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal while building from the bottom up professional grassroots soccer outfits at USL levels in places like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc. Then we'll see where it can go.

The voice of reason.
Thank you.

[Shway]

How about a smallish population base spread thinly across a giant landmass to start with. Plus, Canadian football has over a hundred years of cultivated support with teams in their respetive cities. Not to mention, a needed change in attitute from a mainstream sports media that has grown to worship all things hockey and a few other sports they might be interested in, for which soccer is not on their list.

A real Canadian league, one that compete with MLS on an even level, is a pipe dream at best. It's better to have MLS representation in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal while building from the bottom up professional grassroots soccer outfits at USL levels in places like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc. Then we'll see where it can go.

Good point, but do you think teams would get the full support if they were in the USL? only reason why montreal, vancouver,portland, seattle are all considered successfull, or go well with your plan because they have HISTORY, without that, i dont think its possible to start a team from the bottom. People want to put their money in top level professional teams.

[jloome]

Alberta is too redneck for soccer. The only interest here in soccer comes from those who are out of province like myself.
I think the Beckham - White Caps friendly last summer only drew around 24 000 and that was on a once in a lifetime type game here.
Soccer in Alberta = imminent FAIL and would be a horrible choice when Montreal and even Ottawa are far more deserving.

Dude, with all due respect, you have no fucking clue what your'e talking about.

I've studied the various pro leagues that have had franchises in Alberta and they've always drawn in the top-third of any league they've been in, including averaging more than 10,000 per game in the NASL.

Teams have failed here due to reckless management, not attendance. Additionally, the average of national team game attendances here leads the nation; twice, we've exceeded 25,000 in walkup ticket sales for national team games.

Again, I know where you're coming from with respect to Alberta attitudes, but you're wrong on this one. If they put an MLS team here, it would easily compete with the better U.S. cities for attendance. In fact, the indoor drillers in the NPSL drew more than 6,500 a game for toyball.

[jloome]

Oh, and the Beckham attendance was over 37,000.

[twistedchinaman]

A real Canadian league, one that compete with MLS on an even level, is a pipe dream at best. It's better to have MLS representation in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal while building from the bottom up professional grassroots soccer outfits at USL levels in places like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc. Then we'll see where it can go.

+1 as well.

FC Alberta will never, ever, fly in MLS. It may in maybe 50 years, but USL is probably the best place to start. And we mean PDL or very best USL-2.

So far no oil man or oil woman has enough cojones to invest properly. Nelson Skalbania tried during the NASL days and failed -- if it was ever to get off the ground, it will be a venture that requires the backing of a big group (like the Flames ownership) or a relatively prudent businessperson coupled with a GM with good sports mind.

[jloome]

How about a smallish population base spread thinly across a giant landmass to start with. Plus, Canadian football has over a hundred years of cultivated support with teams in their respetive cities. Not to mention, a needed change in attitute from a mainstream sports media that has grown to worship all things hockey and a few other sports they might be interested in, for which soccer is not on their list.

A real Canadian league, one that compete with MLS on an even level, is a pipe dream at best. It's better to have MLS representation in Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal while building from the bottom up professional grassroots soccer outfits at USL levels in places like Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc. Then we'll see where it can go.

This is somewhat nonsensical. I'm sorry dude, but you haven't actually presented anything but the hypothesis that size is everything, and of course there are plenty of nations with even smaller, more disparate populations than Canada that have pro soccer.

The "out" you've provided here is by saying "one that competes with MLS on an even level" but that wasn't the proposal. In fact, MLS is one of the best-attended leagues in the world on average, so that's a bit ridiculous.

But most second- or third-tier pro leagues in europe survive on attedances well below 9,000 per game. Assuming you don't need 10,000 plus in every location to succeed, our population centres are viable.

THe problem then becomes distance and travel. But obviously there are ways to minimize that issue, such as unbalanced east-west schedules.

The bigger issue than the usual issues of distance and population is the mere scope of it; for this to ever happen, we first need a complete reform and restructuring of the amateur game in Canada, so that -- as with early pro leagues in "grassroots" football countries -- its elite base can form the lowest rung of "league" play.

It has to start at that low a level, because you need to have amateur, semi-pro and pro involvement, depending on the size of the community being serviced and the local buy in.

All of this is doable; it's getting a handful of investors will to initially "own" the league, a la MLS, to ensure a stable long-term business structure is in place, then getting the amateur mandarins across the country to buy in as well. Easier said that done, but not impossible.

The will isn't there yet, but it's building. Maybe another 15-20 years of reasonable cautious MLS growth will convince the right people.

[twistedchinaman]

Oh, and the Beckham attendance was over 37,000.

That is because of one word -- Beckham.

If you played a Canadian Championship game (say Vancouver vs. TFC) at McMahon or Commonwealth, we can bet your bottom dollar that it won't be that much. It might not improve that much more even if it was say, a local team (like our hypothetical FC Alberta).

[jloome]

Oh, and I'm not saying the USL/MLS route isn't better, I"m just saying it's not impossible to have full Canadian buy-in.

[jloome]

That is because of one word -- Beckham.

If you played a Canadian Championship game (say Vancouver vs. TFC) at McMahon or Commonwealth, we can bet your bottom dollar that it won't be that much. It might not improve that much more even if it was say, a local team (like our hypothetical FC Alberta).

Dude, Alberta's cities are like every other in Canada: if your soccer is sold as second-rate (and unfortunately for usl that's still the prevailing theory) they won't go.

But even at the youth level, if it's sold as first-grade, people will go. Hell, look at the u-19 women's, which was averaging over 35,000 per game.

[twistedchinaman]

Dude, Alberta's cities are like every other in Canada: if your soccer is sold as second-rate (and unfortunately for usl that's still the prevailing theory) they won't go.

But even at the youth level, if it's sold as first-grade, people will go. Hell, look at the u-19 women's, which was averaging over 35,000 per game.

Well if you put it that way, that sounds a bit better. But it's still going to be a hard slog with the Flames/Oilspills and the Stampeders/Icecubes in the way.

[Stryker]

Dude, with all due respect, you have no fucking clue what your'e talking about.

I've studied the various pro leagues that have had franchises in Alberta and they've always drawn in the top-third of any league they've been in, including averaging more than 10,000 per game in the NASL.

Teams have failed here due to reckless management, not attendance. Additionally, the average of national team game attendances here leads the nation; twice, we've exceeded 25,000 in walkup ticket sales for national team games.

Again, I know where you're coming from with respect to Alberta attitudes, but you're wrong on this one. If they put an MLS team here, it would easily compete with the better U.S. cities for attendance. In fact, the indoor drillers in the NPSL drew more than 6,500 a game for toyball.

National teams draw well cause one they're rare, two half the supporters are immigrants there to see the visiting team.
I'll also say that as a blue collar oil worker I can never find anyone in my field wanting to talk about football. I'm not just talking about TFC ethier, most of them don't even know who Chelsea or AC Milan are.

[twistedchinaman]

National teams draw well cause one they're rare, two half the supporters are immigrants there to see the visiting team.
I'll also say that as a blue collar oil worker I can never find anyone in my field wanting to talk about football. I'm not just talking about TFC ethier, most of them don't even know who Chelsea or AC Milan are.

Unless you're talking European soccer, most locals don't know shit all. Most of the boys I work with are talking Greek, Italian, English and Spanish footy. I brought the TFC action into it -- and let's say I think I made a fan.

(Two if you count one of the blokes who saw me on TV during the Seattle game...apparently.)

[Redcoe15]

This is somewhat nonsensical. I'm sorry dude, but you haven't actually presented anything but the hypothesis that size is everything, and of course there are plenty of nations with even smaller, more disparate populations than Canada that have pro soccer.

The "out" you've provided here is by saying "one that competes with MLS on an even level" but that wasn't the proposal. In fact, MLS is one of the best-attended leagues in the world on average, so that's a bit ridiculous.

But most second- or third-tier pro leagues in europe survive on attedances well below 9,000 per game. Assuming you don't need 10,000 plus in every location to succeed, our population centres are viable.

THe problem then becomes distance and travel. But obviously there are ways to minimize that issue, such as unbalanced east-west schedules.

The bigger issue than the usual issues of distance and population is the mere scope of it; for this to ever happen, we first need a complete reform and restructuring of the amateur game in Canada, so that -- as with early pro leagues in "grassroots" football countries -- its elite base can form the lowest rung of "league" play.

It has to start at that low a level, because you need to have amateur, semi-pro and pro involvement, depending on the size of the community being serviced and the local buy in.

All of this is doable; it's getting a handful of investors will to initially "own" the league, a la MLS, to ensure a stable long-term business structure is in place, then getting the amateur mandarins across the country to buy in as well. Easier said that done, but not impossible.

The will isn't there yet, but it's building. Maybe another 15-20 years of reasonable cautious MLS growth will convince the right people.

What exactly are you trying to say? On the one hand, you say an MLS team in Edmonton will draw very well, and anything lower won't do. And in the above post, you were suggesting that Canada develop its own league from the bottom up. But where are you going to find enough cities to fill this league if you insist that cities like Edmonton and Ottawa can build soccer from the top down with their own MLS teams?

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I don't know about MLS, but a city the size of Edmonton could work in USL-1. An appropriately-sized stadium is needed, though, as Commonwealth is not a venue solution.

[arbogast]

Dude, with all due respect, you have no fucking clue what your'e talking about.

I've studied the various pro leagues that have had franchises in Alberta and they've always drawn in the top-third of any league they've been in, including averaging more than 10,000 per game in the NASL.

Teams have failed here due to reckless management, not attendance. Additionally, the average of national team game attendances here leads the nation; twice, we've exceeded 25,000 in walkup ticket sales for national team games.

Again, I know where you're coming from with respect to Alberta attitudes, but you're wrong on this one. If they put an MLS team here, it would easily compete with the better U.S. cities for attendance. In fact, the indoor drillers in the NPSL drew more than 6,500 a game for toyball.

Really? How well did the Edmonton Aviators do? How about the Calgary Mustangs? No so well eh?

The fact that Edmonton drew 25k for a one off match doesn't prove there is support for club football, where supporters come in the thousands week in week out.

[jloome]

Really? How well did the Edmonton Aviators do? How about the Calgary Mustangs? No so well eh?

The fact that Edmonton drew 25k for a one off match doesn't prove there is support for club football, where supporters come in the thousands week in week out.

Actually, the Aviators were lying in 6th in overall attendance when their owners pulled the plug after a half-dozen games. The team finished with poor attendances because it was playing at high school fields with the players staying for free.

I interviewed some of the business partners in the Aviators for the Sun and they're the first to admit it was a complete absence of fiduciary checks and balances and managemetn due diligence that led to that fiasco.

Irrelevant to the point at hand, however, as I pointed out in the original response that most people don't think USL is of a high enough calibre to bother supporting it.

[Roogsy]

If we can't have our own hockey league...no other sport can survive.

I would not be pulling out the CFL as any sort of example. All that history and at so many points, they were at death's door and yet still may be.

A Canadian league is not on my wish list.

[jloome]

National teams draw well cause one they're rare, two half the supporters are immigrants there to see the visiting team.
I'll also say that as a blue collar oil worker I can never find anyone in my field wanting to talk about football. I'm not just talking about TFC ethier, most of them don't even know who Chelsea or AC Milan are.

Congrats, you travel in very narrow circles. I live in EDmonton and have for more than a dozen years, and I never have trouble finding people who want to talk footie.

Redcoe, I'm talking about building from the ground up, allowing for a natural progression based on the size of the communities. That means budgeting for a 1,000-seat semi-pro team in Red Deer; a 5,000-seat "lower end" top league team in Regina; realism, in terms of costs and quality expectations, along with decades of patience to build it up to something better.

Again, did you read the end of the post? I did point out that I'm not suggesting this is a superior route to MLS, just that it's possible. But you have to either have a) a massive, nationalized framework from best amateur to best pro or b) a recognition that Canada's biggest cities are urbane and cosmopolitan enough that they want MLS level.

[twistedchinaman]

If an Edmonton USL team wants to do anything, this is probably their best place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foote_Field

Alternatively, they could try Telus Field (from the dimensions, it could work sorta like CommunityAmerica Park in KC):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telus_Field

[jloome]

If an Edmonton USL team wants to do anything, this is probably their best place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foote_Field

Alternatively, they could try Telus Field (from the dimensions, it could work sorta like CommunityAmerica Park in KC):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telus_Field

Ideally, they'd go to CLarke Park and add some seats. There's lot of room to expand and it's a nice, homey little stadium.

If we get pro football here any time soon, I'd be surprised if it was Darryl Katz doing it. There are other candidates who, while not having his billions, are still wealthy enough and more involved in soccer.

[twistedchinaman]

Katz is too busy with the Oilers, I doubt Bruce Urban has enough cash to support the Edmonton Drudge (a.k.a. Rush) and a football team. Brad Bannister is probably Calgary only, ditto the Flames ownership group. And before you say the Shaw family -- forget it. Trust me on this one, they won't do it.

Clarke Stadium isn't bad, but I'd still say it's a tossup between it and Foote. They're both right on the LRT line (Coliseum and South Campus), and they're pretty small. 2,000-6,000 will be a good start. If the LRT wasn't there then Foote would've lost easily. But the new line probably will be the great equalizer. They both look not bad, but the thing is they're still both pointyball fields. Or are they still?

[Cashcleaner]

"Edmonton’s Commonwealth Stadium has hosted some of Canada’s biggest soccer events. In 1994, Commonwealth drew close to 50,000 fans for a friendly between Canada and Brazil. In 2002, a crowd of 47,484 saw the FIFA U-19 Women’s World Cup championship match between the U.S. and Canada. Also, last summer, Edmonton was a host city for the FIFA U-20 World Cup in which three matches exceeded 30,000 fans in attendance."

Article is here.

There is no reason why there can't someday (soon) be a Canadian soccer league with exactly the same attendance and TV ratings as the CFL.

There's no good reason, at least. Taking the CFL as a template of viability works, especially when you consider the Canadian Football League's salary cap is larger than that of MLS.

That's right people, clubs in the CFL can spend more on talent than MLS teams (currently hovering around 4.5 million).

So with that in mind, why exactly couldn't a Canadian domestic league work? The problem isn't likely to be finances.

[Beach_Red]

There's no good reason, at least. Taking the CFL as a template of viability works, especially when you consider the Canadian Football League's salary cap is larger than that of MLS.

That's right people, clubs in the CFL can spend more on talent than MLS teams (currently hovering around 4.5 million).

So with that in mind, why exactly couldn't a Canadian domestic league work? The problem isn't likely to be finances.

The thing that has changed the sports landscape more than anything is television. With a decent TV contract a Canadian league using the CFL as a template could really work.

Imagine going to BMO to see a team with a 4.5 million salary cap?

Someone's going to make a lot of money with this idea....