Onward! - Carver's story doesn't square

[backbeat]

A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

i couldn't agree more - hear, hear!!!

[MG42]

A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

I could have taken this a lot more seriously if you hadn't supported Cathal Kelly just kidding, thanks for the info. One question though why did he mention after the dallas away march that his job was on the line?

[johnmolinaro]

I could have taken this a lot more seriously if you hadn't supported Cathal Kelly just kidding, thanks for the info. One question though why did he mention after the dallas away march that his job was on the line?

I think when he said that he knew the end was near and was close to calling it quits - and not that Mo was thinking about making a coaching change.

[MG42]

I think when he said that he knew the end was near and was close to calling it quits - and not that Mo was thinking about making a coaching change.

Thanks John.

[Redpunkfiddle]

A few words in JC's defence....


4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.


John Molinaro

If Carver figured out how to play with 12 men, then he does deserve more credit...

J/K John, lots of people are making that mistake.. thanks for the insight.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Laaaaaaaame, sorry Ben but I think you have been hanging out with giambac too long.

[johnmolinaro]

If Carver figured out how to play with 12 men, then he does deserve more credit...

J/K John, lots of people are making that mistake.. thanks for the insight.

LOL. no worries. as for offering my insight, you're welcome - I just wanted to bring some balance to the discussion.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Right ... it's just a coincidence that we played the 2 best games of TFC's existence with Carver not on the sidelines

If we win the NCC and the MLS Championship ... is John Carver going to take the credit for that too.

Honestly, I read this guy like a book the first time I heard him speak. He came into the league thinking that he was above it, and that's pretty much how he left. Only problem with that is not only was he not above it .... he wasn't even good enough to be in it.

the fact remains that CARVER helped 2 games ,just some fans are to thick to appreciate it. This man was the best TFC could have had and finding another quality manager like that wont happen soon. Stop
draming of the MLS cup..were still a year or so away from that yet...even the NCC is of little importance compared to the league, the NCC is a crappy 3 team tournament..you have a 33.33% chance of winning it before a ball is kicked. TFC needed Carver..now were screwed!!

[Marc"2L"]

I like Carver.
Shit didn't work out.
Nothing said in this forum will sway what will become of the team now. (ie: where we finish)

Can't wait to keep the krew winless.

[greatwhitenorf]

What if JC is sticking around and is covertly and defiantly parked by the club for upcoming games in an elevated observation post and relaying tactical info to the bench?

Or standing amidst the RPB section and having a few hundred of his closest new friends singing that information to the bench?

Be glad to hear of either situation working out for TFC's benefit.

[Marc"2L"]

Or standing amidst the RPB section and having a few hundred of his closest new friends singing that information to the bench?

Hey TFC, if you wanted to become a corky legendary club........

[Roogsy]

A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

Thanks for your perspective John. Every point here reinforces my opinions on Carver.

[LucaGol]

A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

I'm not here to cause problems, but like as was the intent of Ben Knight's article ... I am ardent supporter of logic and am still searching to find an answer I can accept.

Issue 1: John Carver "implements" this fabulous new 4-3-3 system. But suddenly, not only has the formation changed, the philosophy of all the 10 outfield players have changed. Pass and move, off the ball hard work, ball on the deck.

Not only has he instituted this new free flowing style ... but it works ... and he knows it works because he has seen it from a bird's eye perspective in the press box. He is thrilled with his mastermind creation.

Issue 2: Rather than end his hiatus from the touchline and take credit for this innovative new style he's concocted, he says "I'm going to stay in the pressbox and continue to let most people assume that things are working because I'm not down there" (which runs counter to his personality)

Issue 3: After the FC Dallas game he goes off on a rant letting slip that his job is on the line. If your regular John Doe is not succeeding at his job ... he doesn't automatically assume he's on the chopping block. He gets fair warning, this is how the world usually works. Suddenly 2 games later, he's no longer with the organization.

Issue 4: If the MLS told him to go by the touchline ... why did he not just go?
He's the coach of the team after all ... is that not where he wanted to be? Regardless of this sort of precedent set by other managers in England as has been brought up before, was he planning on observing from the press box for the rest of the season?

Issue 5: Why did Mo Johnston give his first on air interview during the Chivas game, coinciding with John Carver's absence from the field?


Many questions with yet no valid answers.

In summary, John Carver ... good guy, likeable, honest, average coach (depending on your previous assertions of the man entrenching yourself in such a staunch position that changing it later would seem impossible), ... left under dubious circumstances.

[Ben Knight]

John is a fine reporter, and I'm never comfortable disagreeing with him. But on this story, we disagree. I simply do not buy Carver as the sole author of this new system.

[H Bomb]

careful who you back ben, supporting lucagol in anything on here may be a bad idea

also Luca is out to lunch...we've played fluid football on many occasions including last year...Luca is one of those folks who only remembers the shit and therefor has nothing else to talk about.

[sully]

[quote=LucaGol;497032]I'm not here to cause problems, but like as was the intent of Ben Knight's article ... I am ardent supporter of logic and am still searching to find an answer I can accept.

Issue 1: - I don't see an 'issue'? I agree that JC would have been pleased.

Issue 2: - What I heard was that Carver felt is had a better view from the stand and was in regular communication with the touchline. Also, I heard that carver felt the team would be better served by him being there, as he felt his presense was detrimental on the touchline based on past MLS experience, which has been well documented. I don't know what the 'issue' is here?

Issue 3: - Carver's troubles with MLS didn't start 2 games ago, it's been ongoing...and as reported, JC was feeling inclined to walk away for quite a while as he felt the team was being damaged by MLS treatment of him..

Issue 4: - Why should he let MLS dictate how he decides to manage his own business if he believed the team would be better served by his better vantage point in the stand? That's just ridiculous...enough said.

Issue 5:- what's the issue? The media, fans wanted information.

[Yohan]

also Luca is out to lunch...we've played fluid football on many occasions including last year...Luca is one of those folks who only remembers the shit and therefor has nothing else to talk about.

this is true. TFC has played fluid, passing football, but just not consistently.

All the elements of 4-3-3 was already in place. (didn't TFC play some 4-3-3 last year? or was it 4-2-3-1)

trying to find logic is fine. but for all the skeptics, where are the evidence to support your own theory?

so far, everything we've heard, some from pretty darn credible people, supports JC and Mo's story

[LucaGol]

careful who you back ben, supporting lucagol in anything on here may be a bad idea

also Luca is out to lunch...we've played fluid football on many occasions including last year...Luca is one of those folks who only remembers the shit and therefor has nothing else to talk about.

Ben's on this board ... he knows what's said and not said.

Please don't talk to what I've posted before or what you think about it .. how about trying to provide answers the issues I've raised.

If you've think we've played fluid football before, I disagree with you. Not to the level that we've all witnessed in the past 2 games.

Don't let my previous affirmations of JC (as I stated) disrupt my argument, which I do believe is shared by several.

[H Bomb]

.. how about trying to provide answers the issues I've raised.

l.

the "issues" you raise, is shit you make up...so I dont have to comment on it....even if you end up being right, it's only happenstance, and remains shit you made up

[sully]

High-five, Luca.

John is a fine reporter, and I'm never comfortable disagreeing with him. But on this story, we disagree. I simply do not buy Carver as the sole author of this new system.

I'd like to think that of course the head-coach has the final say on what system is put in place, but I think it's unlikely that the head-coach doesn't work with his assistants..there is no sole author

[LucaGol]

[QUOTE=sully;497041]

I'm not here to cause problems, but like as was the intent of Ben Knight's article ... I am ardent supporter of logic and am still searching to find an answer I can accept.

Issue 1: - I don't see an 'issue'? I agree that JC would have been pleased.

I was being slightly facetious. I raised the point to bring to light that suddenly, magically, after many hours of TFC games hardened in the philosophy of hoof and hope, route one, 4-4-2, ... lazy football, ... the message finally changes. But who delivered it is the question? You would think that the fact that JC's new tactics had worked to such a degree would be motive enough for him to want to stay with the team at least for another few weeks. But ... no ... abrupt ending. Just like that.

Issue 2: - What I heard was that Carver felt is had a better view from the stand and was in regular communication with the touchline. Also, I heard that carver felt the team would be better served by him being there, as he felt his presense was detrimental on the touchline based on past MLS experience, which has been well documented. I don't know what the 'issue' is here?

Look, this is not the NFL. JC was not calling in the plays. Touchline presence is important. What pray tell do you think JC was telling Cummins to do and say ... JC: "tell Vitti to run into space" ... CC: "Vitti, run into space and combine well with DD while you're at it".

4-3-3 is just a formation on paper. There was one glaring difference between games 1 to 5 and games 6 and 7 ... it's called effort. You know, work rate? There's a reason this change happened, and I believe it had nothing to do with tactics.

Issue 3: - Carver's troubles with MLS didn't start 2 games ago, it's been ongoing...and as reported, JC was feeling inclined to walk away for quite a while as he felt the team was being damaged by MLS treatment of him..

Carver's "trouble's" with the MLS were self-created. Every coach in the league deals with the same rules and constraints. If he was feeling inclined to walk away he should have left the team in the offseason.

Issue 4: - Why should he let MLS dictate how he decides to manage his own business if he believed the team would be better served by his better vantage point in the stand? That's just ridiculous...enough said.

MLS should not dictate how he manages the team. I agree. I have issue with John Carver wanting to stay in the press box. You are the coach ... go coach.

Issue 5:- what's the issue? The media, fans wanted information.

Telling people you are about to be sacked/fired/canned and blaming it all on a hopeless referee is not information the media needs. It's called desperation.

[LucaGol]

the "issues" you raise, is shit you make up...so I dont have to comment on it....even if you end up being right, it's only happenstance, and remains shit you made up

The dictionary:

Define: Theory

several related propositions that explain some domain of inquiry. Also called a school or paradigm.


The dictionary according to Professor H Bomb:

Define: Theory

"shit you make up"

[H Bomb]

theories require information

[johnmolinaro]

I'd like to think that of course the head-coach has the final say on what system is put in place, but I think it's unlikely that the head-coach doesn't work with his assistants..there is no sole author

And you're more than entitled to that opinion.

It wasn't my goal or intention to convince anyone on this board into seeing things from my point of view.

I only wanted to present the facts as I saw them - as an insider who is around the team a lot (not just during games) and is "in the know" more than the average person - so you can get a complete picture and decide for yourselves.

Consider what I and others have said, and draw your own conclusions.

John

[LucaGol]

theories require information

Did you even read what I posted?

I'm not railing on anyone ... I'm searching for a plausible explanation and correlation between the events I've listed.

[Ben Knight]

There, John and I agree -- word for word.

We're just trying to dig it out, folks. Of course, it's ultimately your decision.

:-)

[H Bomb]

yes i read it....want some plausible explanations....well take all those explanations you've been given, by the only people who know anything, and listen to them. You can assume everyone is lying all you want.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

I think it was a combination of both the MLS being douchebags and shoving their nose into places where it DOESN'T belong and MLSE "gentley" and "lovingly" showing Carver the door, and giving Carver a little bit of "be quiet about MLSE" money....

It can be the truth from both angles....a little bit of column A and little bit of column B.....

[H Bomb]

There, John and I agree -- word for word.

We're just trying to dig it out, folks. Of course, it's ultimately your decision.

:-)

hey man, you're doing a great job, but I have to disagree with your last point. He either left for the reasons he stated, or there's something else completely new wee haven't heard about...one of the problems with modern journalism is that it has become too editorial. As if we all have equal opinions on matters, but in these cases that's not the truth...the truth is the truth and that's what we want. You guys (john M) are in a position of access and information and if you get any we'd appreciate that being sent our way. As we have to deal with so much BS speculation on a day to day basis

[sully]

wow...I think this could go on for a while, so I'll give you my response and leave it alone as I want to have my tea.. (by the way, I've noticed that we tend to disagree a lot, but as long as where all civil it's all good..I'll put my thought in bold to separate text)

[quote=LucaGol;497059]

I was being slightly facetious. I raised the point to bring to light that suddenly, magically, after many hours of TFC games hardened in the philosophy of hoof and hope, route one, 4-4-2, ... lazy football, ... the message finally changes. But who delivered it is the question? You would think that the fact that JC's new tactics had worked to such a degree would be motive enough for him to want to stay with the team at least for another few weeks. But ... no ... abrupt ending. Just like that.

- My sense is that it was not an abrupt ending to JC. As has been widely reported (as least insofar as TFC goes) JC's problems with MLS started last year, one example being the league making a DVD of him on the touchline for referees to view - that's atrocious behaviour on the part of the league. 'Who deliver the new tactics?' - well, I'd have to say JC and his assistants did...to suggest that Carver was not involved in developing and improving this team doesn't make sense. TFC's better play didn't happen over night..this team has been improving steadily since carver took over 15 months ago. The football we say the last two games is great...but this team has player better football in the past than other times..I just hopw we can maintain this good form.

NFL? - personally I don't even know the rules of that game but I think that in football you do not 'call plays' probably like in NFL. I think we know that Carver was in constant communication with his assistants when he was in the stands...I don't mean to imply that you don't know your football but yes there is a lot of communication, a lot of movements to judge, to find trends over the field etc.

Look, this is not the NFL. JC was not calling in the plays. Touchline presence is important. What pray tell do you think JC was telling Cummins to do and say ... JC: "tell Vitti to run into space" ... CC: "Vitti, run into space and combine well with DD while you're at it".

4-3-3 is just a formation on paper. There was one glaring difference between games 1 to 5 and games 6 and 7 ... it's called effort. You know, work rate? There's a reason this change happened, and I believe it had nothing to do with tactics.

Again, lets hopw the better work ethic continues, we've had our ups and downs in the past - lets hope it continues.. I also belive that Carver instilled a general better work ethic in the team



Carver's "trouble's" with the MLS were self-created. Every coach in the league deals with the same rules and constraints. If he was feeling inclined to walk away he should have left the team in the offseason.

I don't know what the experiences of other coaches have been...I cab only look at what's in front of me...if you know that other managers haven't had difficulties with the league, you know better than me.

MLS should not dictate how he manages the team. I agree. I have issue with John Carver wanting to stay in the press box. You are the coach ... go coach.

During the match you are not coaching, that is for the practice field (well if we ever get a real one ). During the match it's about observing what's happening and making decisions based on that..

Telling people you are about to be sacked/fired/canned and blaming it all on a hopeless referee is not information the media needs. It's called desperation.

Well, based on what I've read, JC was at the point where his frustration was too much for him...JC has also said repeately in the past that the press and fans should leave the players alone and that he bears responsibility.. and yes, he was deperate it seems...desperate to make an untenable position work in the midst of a meddling league office..