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    Default Onward! - Carver's story doesn't square


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    ummm...Ben, is your other name Giambac?

    I find it quite easy to believe that Carver had had has fill. Its not like he is the type that could just shrug off perceived injustices or inadquacies - they would eat at him 24/7. He lives and breathes football, every moment of his waking is dedicated to making his team better.

    If he truly believed his mere presence was hurting the team - he would quit.

    I suggest you review some of our earlier games - there is not a great deal of differnce; just a continuing steady improvement game to game.

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    Great article. I agree that Carver, and TFC, may not be telling us the whole story. But at this point I'm not sure if it matters. Cummins is the new coach and whether he is the man behind the 4-3-3 formation or not is less important than the fact that we're winning.

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    They are even more helplessly subject to the strange structure of MLS than any coach will ever be. Where’s “all for one” now?
    the "all for one" is stronger than ever.

    Unlike the usual pre-game huddle where 11 men circle up in the middle of the field, all the starters, subs AND coaching staff got together in a side line huddle before the kick off. To me, that shows a new sense of unity in the squad, and the extended squad, that was never there before. I think the boys understand they are now playing for something more than just their starting spot.
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    I don't think the team instantly changed when Carver sat upstairs. I tend to believe that had he stuck around, he would be enjoying the fruits of those wins. Regardless, let's hope the wins keep coming.

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    He left and called out the league instead of staying and getting fined and/or banned from the touchline every week. What message is stronger to the league? Isn't that what the players (of all the teams) need? Someone to point out that the product needs improving to match the $$$ we fans put into it?

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    I am saddened that Carver has left but at the same time question what this says to potential future coaches and players that we try to attract to our league.

    The big sign I see says, "DON'T GO THERE!!!", which is worrisome to me.
    Supporting TFC, MLS Champions and the best team in MLS history (and no longer soul sucking), since 2007!

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    Right ... it's just a coincidence that we played the 2 best games of TFC's existence with Carver not on the sidelines

    If we win the NCC and the MLS Championship ... is John Carver going to take the credit for that too.

    Honestly, I read this guy like a book the first time I heard him speak. He came into the league thinking that he was above it, and that's pretty much how he left. Only problem with that is not only was he not above it .... he wasn't even good enough to be in it.

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    i absolutely believe Carver - why do so many believe these conspiracy theories? he's always shot from the hip - not a man to make things up or mince his words - there is no way he wasn't majorly involved in the formation.

    anyway we move on but in his leaving he has brought this team and organization closer together, a much tighter 'All For One' and good on you JC, I say!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    i absolutely believe Carver - why do so many believe these conspiracy theories? he's always shot from the hip - not a man to make things up or mince his words - there is no way he wasn't majorly involved in the formation.

    anyway we move on but in his leaving he has brought this team and organization closer together, a much tighter 'All For One' and good on you JC, I say!!
    Mind boggling post.

    Even when a respected soccer journalist like Ben Knight lays out the story people close their eyes.

    You know, no one is going to persecute you for once liking a coach that turned out to be mediocre at best.

    e.g. I rate Stefan Frei right now ... if in 1 year he can't even hack being our 3rd string keeper ... should I still keep saying that he's bound for Europe and the best thing that's ever happened to TFC?

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    Ummm...Lucagol....most of what a headcoach does - he does during the week @ practice; if he's done his job right, there's (hopefully) little enough to do during the match, other than the odd adjustment.

    ask any coach if he'd rather miss the game or the practices leading up to it.

    How can you not think Carver had a big hand in the last two games - everyone involved is there because of him.

    People don't just become head coaches of pro franchises if they are comically inept - as you imply Carver is. Carver has coached and trained some of the greatest players to ever come out of the greatest league in the world. Sometimes great coaches don't mesh with their squads - I'm not implying this is the case here - it doesn't make them a poor choice.

    Diminishing Carver's achievments is a poor reflection on you, not the other way around.

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    I think Carver was up in the box because he was so frustrated with the league, not because he "wanted a better view". If he had "wanted a better view", he would have probably come back to the touchline at half (after giving the halftime speech to the boys). If he had just "wanted a better view" he DEFINITELY would have given (or at least been at) the post game press conference, to answer questions from the press about what he saw from his better vantage point. There is no reason for him to stay up there away from press and team if it was a purely tactical choice.

    No, I believe John was just completely frustrated at that point. I believe he was sick of the refs in MLS, and a half defeated man. I believe that he stayed away half to prove a point (if you don't like me talking to your fourth official, I'll just sit in my little box) and half because he didn't think he could handle it. As for the formation, he obviously had to sign off on it, but I think it was probably the coaching staff who pushed it, and he just didn't care to argue, so he said "ok, go for it". Why does that matter? Because if it was in fact cummins who pushed the 4-3-3 we would be well served to keep him as an interm, if it wasn't, that has to be taken into consideration.

    And, as to "why would Carver say something like that if it wasn't totally true" just think about it for a second. I don't believe, for a second, that Carver is completely done with coaching soccer. When he applies to his next job, which will serve him better, being known as a coach who had a temper tantrum and went upstair in a huff, or a coach that successfully introduced a new formation into his side, went up to look at it tactically, and then was forced to take a stand by an unreasonable league?

    Oh, and you likely won't see anyone from TFC correcting that story. It seems like everyone liked him enough (Mo and Cummins specifically) that they will let him have the credit (even if it isn't his to have) to help him land on his feet. Either way, I don't begrudge Carver at all, I wish him well, but I can't respect the way he walked out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by felipe View Post
    Ummm...Lucagol....most of what a headcoach does - he does during the week @ practice; if he's done his job right, there's (hopefully) little enough to do during the match, other than the odd adjustment.

    ask any coach if he'd rather miss the game or the practices leading up to it.

    How can you not think Carver had a big hand in the last two games - everyone involved is there because of him.

    People don't just become head coaches of pro franchises if they are comically inept - as you imply Carver is. Carver has coached and trained some of the greatest players to ever come out of the greatest league in the world. Sometimes great coaches don't mesh with their squads - I'm not implying this is the case here - it doesn't make them a poor choice.

    Diminishing Carver's achievments is a poor reflection on you, not the other way around.
    Credibility of post = lost

    (refer to bolded part)

    And please don't mention Alan Shearer. Linking Alan Shearer's great career and John Carver's influence while he was a caretaker would be a gross insult to the player.

    As for greatest league in the world ... well ... I think players such as Pele and Maradona would have other opinions.
    Last edited by LucaGol; 04-28-2009 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LucaGol View Post
    Mind boggling post.

    Even when a respected soccer journalist like Ben Knight lays out the story people close their eyes.

    You know, no one is going to persecute you for once liking a coach that turned out to be mediocre at best.

    e.g. I rate Stefan Frei right now ... if in 1 year he can't even hack being our 3rd string keeper ... should I still keep saying that he's bound for Europe and the best thing that's ever happened to TFC?
    credibility of post=nil

    Ya just did.

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    Ha! It's like playing with a puppet!

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    why are 3/4 of the people on this board so convinced that everyone is against them? it is absolutely appalling.

    anything that happens to tfc is turned into some outrageous mlse, mo, carver, anselmi conspiracy against the supporters and how they are such victims. get over it and stop acting like a bunch of whiners. carver is telling you his reasons, are you really THAT cynical to think he would lie?

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    There is only so much crap a person can deal with and JC had a lot to deal with from the clowns at MLS headquarters...being told to be on the field...thats BS...a manager can look after the club from any part of the stadium...MLS needs a house
    cleaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    credibility of post=nil

    Ya just did.
    Did he have an about face that I missed?

    I'm ripping the post because there are still claims that John Carver is the Rinus Michels/Helenio Herrera incarnate and that his reasons for leaving are valid.

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    Awesome article Ben. I'm in complete agreement with everything you say. The team is much better off without him anyways. The only think he had before he quit was class, and in my opinion, he contradicted that once he quit on his team. Oh well, can't say I'm sorry to see him go.

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    I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

    I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Knight View Post
    I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

    I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.
    but the fact of the matter is the 'All For One' is tighter and stronger now because of JC's actions, not the other way around as was seen at the beginning of the last match when the players went to the bench and huddled together 'all for one' - it was a statement of support and moving on - it was powerful, in my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Knight View Post
    I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

    I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.
    I like Carver as a man as well, and when I first saw the 4-3-3 employed, I first game him the credit but was wondering why it took so long to find this system which seemed so obvious to everyone. After, he guite it just does not add up. I will take him on his word. But cannot help but thinking that there is more.

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    I liked the man too, always seemed honest. After the first couple matches (at home)this year, I was like, this team is too lower league english to succeed. It somehow works for the USL clubs, but not in MLS really. Need to keep the ball on the ground, The first game was ugly, the 2nd more of the same. I thought our third home match we played much better, although we didn't have much width.

    Anyway, I liked the guy, seemed like he was fun to be around, but didn't really rate him as a coach too much. Then again, I always go for a 4-3-3 formation. Maybe the switch to a 4-3-3 was more like the van basten situation with holland where the dutch players had an 'intervention' and told him what system they were going to play as he was screwing them up in the leadup to that tournament that made him look brilliant at the Euro's this year and now that he doesn't have those vereran players in his Ajax team telling him what to do, they suck....

    Whatever the case is, we'll see after a few weeks if it was Carver, or what.

    We have started to play much better, so good luck JC!
    Last edited by keem-o-sabi; 04-28-2009 at 01:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LucaGol View Post
    Credibility of post = lost

    (refer to bolded part)

    And please don't mention Alan Shearer. Linking Alan Shearer's great career and John Carver's influence while he was a caretaker would be a gross insult to the player.

    As for greatest league in the world ... well ... I think players such as Pele and Maradona would have other opinions.
    Pele and Maradona? What year are you living in? Last I checked, neither of them are still playing. As of right now, you hear most 'big name' players saying they want to play in the Premier League. Oh wait, it's English, so you disagree. Right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Knight View Post
    I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

    I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.
    No good deed goes unpunished, Ben!
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    A terrible blog entry.

    Ben, I've liked your blog so far, but show the man some respect.

    It's not like I'm a Carver fan (more like undecided), but you don't treat someone like that, especially after they gave all out for the club.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

    Supporting since 2007


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    First, before people start crappy on Mr. Knight, please remember his blog is an opinion and like everyone else here he's entitled to it.

    Second, this Carver “thing” will all come clean in the wash.

    I've said this numerous times here…this league is what it is…deal with it. I could have told John Carver before he signed a contract that the weakest link (and there are several) is…officiating.

    Has he really done the club and his players a favour by taking the bullet? Does the inept refereeing suddenly get better? Does TFC get a break here or there because "he's"not on the touchline? Does outing referees and league officials help his players down the road?

    Right boys…good luck…I’m away…

    For all of John Carver’s passion and love its got us what? Who was the last manager in professional sports to quit because of shitting officiating? Who?

    He couldn’t control himself and it cost him his job and probably his health. Regardless, he’s taken his ball, gone home and left the players standing in the street…

    Good luck John…
    “We changed the entire league’s opinion of the viability of soccer in North America. And then we blew it because we chickened out." —Tim Leiweke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A terrible blog entry.

    Ben, I've liked your blog so far, but show the man some respect.
    What exactly is disrespectful in pointing out that the Carver story and the Mo/Cummins story have some glaring inconsistencies between them? Or that Carver's own tale contradicts itself on a couple of occasions?

    It's not like I'm a Carver fan (more like undecided), but you don't treat someone like that, especially after they gave all out for the club.
    ...and then abandoned them at a crucial time in their season.


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    A few words in JC's defence....

    1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

    2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

    3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

    4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

    5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

    6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

    John Molinaro

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnmolinaro View Post
    A few words in JC's defence....

    1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

    2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

    3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

    4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

    5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

    6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

    John Molinaro
    Apart from your points that are first-hand, (which I've no reason to doubt), it's been clear to me from what I've understood and heard from the media that I agree with everything you say. However, some people are skeptics, but I think the majority agree that JC will ultimately be missed, but his legacy will be positive for this club for a long time.
    Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
    Roy Keane

 

 

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