It's a tough road. Everyone involved knows how big the league can be, but no one's been able to find exactly the right way to go from here to there. No doubt there will be bumps along the way and adjustments are being made. The downside of that is it looks inconsistent butthe upside is they're going to keep trying to get it right.Originally Posted by TheRenter
Nobody knew Carver before he came, many will forget him real fast. If the MLS hired a proven coach like Sven and he left for that reason, then I would see your point. But in this case, it's only he who looks bad. Specially since he in no way improved the quality of this league.
How could Carver leave based on the validity of the league and a guy like this is still here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nicol
Last edited by Ladies Love Julius James; 04-26-2009 at 01:04 PM.
it's more about dedication to the league, for me.
the prob with bringing in a Sven or Mourinho (I know, it's a joke, but just go along with the idea) is that they have no dedication to the league. They are less likely to stick it out through the bad times ... look at Ruud in LA.
It's probably best to look for coaches who have a solid history in MLS, because they are going to try to make it work.
To be honest, there's no reason Carver would leave on the surface... his team is middle of the pack... 2-2-2 is not a bad record. He has good talent on the squad.
If Carver was Steve Nicol or Bruce Arena, or Dominic Kinnear, there's no way he just quits like that. These coaches, for whatever reason, are dedicated to MLS.
When you start bringing in mercenaries or guys who would really prefer to be in big leagues, then you run the risk of losing them. And MLS is so quirky in its style of play that these guys may employ strategies that work in Europe but not here.
When it doesn't work right away, they leave in frustration.
someone like Sigi Schmidt has MLS pretty much figured out.. he knows what strategies work and what types of players he wants. But it took him years of experience in the league to get to that point. And if he coached in the Premiership he'd have to adapt greatly too.
Last edited by rocker; 04-26-2009 at 11:52 AM.
And the fact that Carver quit because of that is proof that he was never going to succeed here.
Only problem is he stuck around 15 months too long.
Thats almost as bad as the Dale Mitchell thread. Yeesh. Good to see logic and sound arguments always have a home here. Carvers quitting is proof Carver wasn't happy. And thats all its proof of.
Also, Coaches don't have loyalties to leagues. They have loyalties to money. And the league that offers the most money is where the loyalty lies. Outside of Wenger anyways. Players/Coaches in every sport, in every league use the league, city, community, fans etc as tie breakers. But 99% of the time, its coming down to money. Which is one reason Carver was so frustrated with the organization of the league, and its capping of that money.
Last edited by Waggy; 04-26-2009 at 01:08 PM.
I love how you guys call him a quitter. Which one of you puts up with a situation longer than he has to?
Managers quit all the time because of interference from the FO and other frustrations. Being that they are just as easily fired, I am not sure why someone leaving is any more or less common.
He had enough. Lord knows when I had enough of my job I quit and moved on to the next. That's life. That's professional sports. He couldn't give his all to a situation that was impossible for him. I would do the same. I'd be surprised if any of you would do any different. So why would I blame him?
Carver was the equivalent of a petulant child sticking his fingers in his ears and stomping his feet in the middle of the toy aisle expecting to get his way.
He was unwilling to accept the realities of MLS and it was holding the team back.
Toronto is better off without him.
Does MLS have alot of stupid rules? Of course!
Should those problems be addressed? Of course!
Should TFC be sacrificing victories to make those points? Of course not!
JC was cutting off his nose to spite his face.
Toronto needs an MLS manager who is willing to deal with MLS. Not a deluded egomaniac who thinks he is Alex Ferguson.
Last edited by ilikemusic; 04-26-2009 at 01:13 PM.
No point discussing Carver the quitter. It's exceedingly unlikely that this is what happened.
Mo is doing himself and Carver a favour here.
Carver will have an easier time getting his next job this way, and it helps Mo recruit people if he doesn't hang them out to twist in the wind when it's over.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Moderator
Here's the thing though; those may not be really outstanding credentials for a coach applying for a Premiership job, but for an expansion MSL club you could do a lot worse. You're forgetting his time as assistant coach and caretaker at Newcastle, BTW.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
Well, OK, he was caretaker for one game there.
My point still stands. He's not too big for MLS. Far from it. Multiple MLS coaches had better credentials before coming into this league.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
So who told him he had to get back on the sideline???
if the job is getting done...who cares where he sits???
would mojo have told him to get pitch side?
or the higher ups??
I don't disagree with any of that. However, I dont think you'll be able to find too many quality coaches who fit that bill. And not fitting that bill certainly doesn't count as proof you can't succeed. A coach of all people can win in a league he hates. Carvers resigning though isn't about success. Its about frustration. And thats what we should be focusing on to fix. What caused the frustration? MLS? MLSE? Anything we can control? Carvers gone, but the next coach will have the same issues to deal with, and no sane person would deal with them too different from Carver. So we need to fix the issues, instead of blaming the man.
Last edited by Waggy; 04-26-2009 at 01:39 PM.
If Carver quit 6 games ago, I wouldn't be so harsh in my feelings for Carver. I never questioned his character before this, just his coaching abilities. Can you or someone that doesn't consider him a quitter address how it's ok for him to sign a 1 year extension and then quit after 6 games? In any job, any sport, how is that ok? Unless he was being abused by his boss, how is it ok to quit after you've just re-signed in a role as important as head coach? I'm shocked that you guys think it's acceptible to do this. Fine if you think he was a nice guy, but it's real hard to argue that he's not a quitter.
Personally, I'm very happy he left. To me, this was the best news since DeRo signing.
I think we're missing the point here, with all the discussions about the league's rules and his reasons to leave - the real question is "Was he a good coach, or not?". After over a season, I am convinced his coaching abilities are mediocre at best. So, good riddance, we're gonna make the playoffs now!
I am still on the fence on this one. I still like Carver as a perons, but hope to get more of an explenation from him, before I judge his departure. The league is shit. His frustration with the league is understandable, but I am still not sure that quiting over it, was the right call. Ultimatley it was Carvers call to make, he will have to live with the consequences. Lets not argue over the proverbial spiled milk. Carver is gone, his era good or bad, is over. However, there are certainly systemic problems with the league that would be discouraging for most persepctive managers.
A sane, level headed reply in this thread...finally
Yeah, if we can' t keep top talent like John Carver around, what hope do we have? One of the qualities a good coach has to have is adaptibility and grace under pressure, qualities that Carver obviously lacks. Where do you think a failed MLS manager who can't handle adversity well is going to end up in the UK? I think he's clearly destined to bounce around the lower levels of the league in an assistant or scout role.all of this here in a nutshell pleases me, however i can't help but voice my dissapointment in how others may view the league as a whole because of incidents such as this
smartin up MLS, or you will never be as big as what is possible
Moderator
So you're not counting his tenure as assistant coach out of convenience for your argument?
At least give credit where its due.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
I respect very much your opinion on this new techniques on how to better view a game from a managers and point but when I compare Carver to big managersd out there or even to Sigi Shmidt for instance, I'm a bit in contradiction with you.
Did you ever seen Sir Alex, Wenger, Morinho....leaving their touchline and supervising the game from the stands?
I just think that your players are better served when you are there close to them and they feel your presence.
Being a good coach is like being a music conductor...It's all in the preparation and how you exsecute it. I don't think Carver had that.
I respect Carver very much as a person but as a coach he just dumped us like a dirty sock 6 games into a new season and I don't like that.
Simple. JC: Mo, I love the city, love the club, want to be back. But I want to know the clubs behind me, I don't just want to be a fall guy
Mo: Don't worry, no matter what the club is 100% behind you
JC: I want better plays, I need some finishers and some defenders
Mo: Don't worry, they're coming
Now, I like Mo as a GM and I think he's doing a good job, but clearly the club chose not to support Carver in his last fine. If I was carver, I'd take that action as voiding my contract. Also, if Carver was so sure it was going swimingly here, wouldn't he have demanded longer than 1 year? 1 year says to me he wasn't sold yet.
I actually recieved the real story from the highest authorities today. There was no blow up with the club or anyone else. JC decided to go purely for his own well being...pure and simple. I can't say anything else, but it was his call, and not based upon another job offer, nor a blow up with anyone in MLSE... and definitely not based upon a $750 fine. I do expect he'll get a job quickly in UK as an assistant, but that's not why he left.
Anything else on the boards is pure speculation but not based upon fact.
Gerry Dobson wrote an excellent piece on JC, seems to think he acted to quick. Obviously a high strung guy who wanted results right away.
Letting officiating under his skin is going to be problematic anywhere he goes, just listen to the EPL managers, tey freak out every week. Part & parcel of the game
That's what the media has been reporting as well so this is what I'm inclined to believe.
No, it's a credential. But it doesn't matter, really it doesn't. I just have no time for this whole line of argument. He's not David Beckham.So you're not counting his tenure as assistant coach out of convenience for your argument?
At least give credit where its due.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
THAT just sums it up folks,
THE MAN WITH NO SHAME
HE HAS NO SHAAMMEEEE
JOHN CARVER, THE MAN WITH NO SHAMMEEEEE!
if it wasnt toronto, then why would you leave you team just because of rules that you have went through for almost 2 years now!
^
i'd die of heart attack or high blood pressure putting up with the MLS shit he has to live through
irregular heart beats, severe migraine and insomnia did happen to me few times in the past in my career... only when i was close to hospitalized, then i switched gears and work...
of course, not sure if that's what's happening here with carver or not, but just saying that there is indeed another unproven theory
Last year, after a DVD of Carver's sideline antics was distributed to the refs, Carver stated that if MLS didn't like him being here, he would leave.
So he did.
I would too if I'd made that assertation and felt that the time had come to act upon my word. I can't blame him or fault him for it. It was a professional decision and purely his, and he should be allowed his dignity IMO.
I liked the guy, but he was too into being the underdog, the mid-table team that wins out by hard work and beat down play designed to stifle creativity. His gameplan was frustrating, graham taylorish, boring football with no real ambition. He liked to sit on narrow leads and never went for the throat, when we were clearly at an advantage.
Accept this guys, all he wanted from this season was 4 more points than we got last year. He said so himself. He had no offensive mentality, no champion mentality. No talk of being the best or challenging for the cup, 8th place was good enough for him. We're better off hitting the reset button and hoping for the best, we really are.
I'll pray for Steve Nicol. I know for a fact this guy has a champions mentality. I saw him play.
That paints him in a rather unsympathetic light as far as im concerned.
He just left because he felt like it?
I would feel pretty dam betrayed if I had spent the last year parading around that 'In Carver We Trust' slogan.
Could not have put it better myself.
Agree with your summary of who Carver is. Bang on.
Disagree with your assessment of the validity of Carver leaving because of the refs (which is not what I believe was the biggest reason he left, but let's say it was - the refs clearly were a factor, that we all know). The time to leave for these sorts of "personal affront to dignity" reasons is in the off season, not 6 games in. A coach or manager has a fundamental obligation to his players that transcends these sorts of problems.
Last edited by ensco; 04-27-2009 at 06:51 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
