Bmo Field Expansion

[Kaz]

Glad to see you get it TFC07. The only new revenue that could potentially come from any expansion is the rise in property taxes around the area.

As for Hamiltons stadium. It was due to undergo a $70-$100m renovation anyways. I think the north side had 5 years left after the 2012 season. It made more sense to build from scratch.

BMO was build for 62 million dollars. The Feds put in less then 30 Million, City of Toronto put in 8 or 9. Ti-Cats get a 142 Million stadium with only Public Funds, 69 million from the Feds, 52 from the City of Toronto.

For a Sporting event that a stadium already exists for. There was literally no reason for federal money to go to Hamilton once the Running Track was removed from the concept, and it because nothing more then a new Ti-Cats stadium. No one is going to recoup their money in anyway.

Yet MLSE wants to do upgrades to BMO and people are up in arms over possible federal money a small fraction of the what was used in Hamilton.

[Mulder]

BMO was build for 62 million dollars. The Feds put in less then 30 Million, City of Toronto put in 8 or 9. Ti-Cats get a 142 Million stadium with only Public Funds, 69 million from the Feds, 52 from the City of Toronto.

For a Sporting event that a stadium already exists for. There was literally no reason for federal money to go to Hamilton once the Running Track was removed from the concept, and it because nothing more then a new Ti-Cats stadium. No one is going to recoup their money in anyway.

Yet MLSE wants to do upgrades to BMO and people are up in arms over possible federal money a small fraction of the what was used in Hamilton.

The City of Toronto funded a stadium in Hamilton? I think you're confused son.

Besides the fact you just glossed over what I said or didn't read it at all, who knows. It was between the choice of renovation for 70-100m or new stadium for $145m.

While we are complaining about funding & math obviously. You really should have broken it down into percentages. Since we are not talking about a building that cost the same.

Feds + Prov Contribution.

BMO Field = 66%
Tim Hortons Field = 63%

City of Hamilton also invested 17% more in BMO field than Toronto did. (But that is mostly covered by MLSE's contribution)

So why are you complaining when BMO field received more initial funding as a basis of overall cost?

[Kaz]

The City of Toronto funded a stadium in Hamilton? I think you're confused son.

Besides the fact you just glossed over what I said or didn't read it at all, who knows. It was between the choice of renovation for 70-100m or new stadium for $145m.

While we are complaining about funding & math obviously. You really should have broken it down into percentages. Since we are not talking about a building that cost the same.

Feds + Prov Contribution.

BMO Field = 66%
Tim Hortons Field = 63%

City of Hamilton also invested 17% more in BMO field than Toronto did. (But that is mostly covered by MLSE's contribution)

So why are you complaining when BMO field received more initial funding as a basis of overall cost?

Yes and I made a typo oh no. I meant city of Hamilton.. I had decided not to post this.. I closed the window.. it's early for me, I really have no recollection of hitting submit, I recalled you are the Hamilton fan.


BMO Field
Total Cost $62.9 Million (actual)
$27 million Federal, $8 million Provincial, $9.8 Million (City of Toronto) (total Public Funds 44.8m)
MLSE $8 Million plus cost over runs and $10 Million for naming rights.
Federal 42.9% Provincial 12.7% Total Feds + Prov is 55.6%
Total Public funds 71.18%

Tim Horton Field
Total Cost $145.7 Million (projected)
$69.1 Million Federal, $22.3 Million Provincial, $54.3 Million city of Hamilton. (Total Public Funds $145.7 Million)
Cost over runs from Public Funds (if there are any)
Federal 47.4% Provincial 15.3% Total Feds + Prov is 62.7%
Total Public Funds 100%

Percentage difference between City of Hamilton (37.3%) and City of Toronto (15.5%) contributions to their stadiums 21.7%

I think before using insulting language that you check the facts.

The new Ti-Cats stadium received 7% more funding from upper levels of Government and 21.7% more funding from the city and no funds from the Ti-Cats.

This shows everything wrong with using public funds for a stadium. The City never recoups it's money, and is likely on the hook for all capital repairs for the structure down the road.

It also shows that the Federal Gov't under certain auspices does fund Professional Sports Stadiums. (As it is doubtful that more then 32 Pan-Am soccer games will be played there) more so the original Pan-Am Bid was to have Soccer games played at BMO. The BMO upgrades would allow more games to be played at BMO on a better surface in the "national soccer stadium" with as large or larger attendance. To be honest playing Soccer on a Turf Field when you have a Grass soccer specific stadium is disgraceful.

And Rugby 7 could have been played on the artificial turf in Hamilton

Of course Bob Young couldn't have gotten his new stadium for a single weekend of Rugby 7s. The whole reason Soccer was taken away from the National Soccer Stadium in the heart of the Pan Am Sports Cluster at the Ex, was to have a reason to fund the New Stadium for the Ti-Cats. (with 100% public funds)

If the Federal Gov't and Provincial Gov't can justify that.. upgrading a stadium for a Multi-Millionaire with out a cent being spent by said millionaire.. and costing tax payers (specifically the city of Hamilton) millions that can't be fully recouped (unless Tim Hortons paid a small fortune for naming rights), and turning the Pan-Am games into a traffic nightmare, putting Soccer (one of the more popular events) outside the core region, then they can find cash for BMO when it's a small fraction of the cost.

So yes Gov't can find a way if they really want to.

[Mulder]

Yes and I made a typo oh no. I meant city of Hamilton.. I had decided not to post this.. I closed the window.. it's early for me, I really have no recollection of hitting submit, I recalled you are the Hamilton fan.


BMO Field
Total Cost $62.9 Million (actual)
$27 million Federal, $8 million Provincial, $9.8 Million (City of Toronto) (total Public Funds 44.8m)
MLSE $8 Million plus cost over runs ($10.1 Million)
Federal 42.9% Provincial 12.7% Total Feds + Prov is 55.6%
Total Public funds 71.18%

Tim Horton Field
Total Cost $145.7 Million (projected)
$69.1 Million Federal, $22.3 Million Provincial, $54.3 Million city of Hamilton. (Total Public Funds $145.7 Million)
Cost over runs from Public Funds (if there are any)
Federal 47.4% Provincial 15.3% Total Feds + Prov is 62.7%
Total Public Funds 100%

Percentage difference between City of Hamilton (37.3%) and City of Toronto (15.5%) contributions to their stadiums 21.7%

I think before using insulting language that you check the facts.

The new Ti-Cats stadium received 7% more funding from upper levels of Government and 21.7% more funding from the city and no funds from the Ti-Cats.

This shows everything wrong with using public funds for a stadium. The City never recoups it's money at all, and is likely on the hook for all capital repairs for the structure down the road.

It also shows that the Federal Gov't under certain auspices does fund Professional Sports Stadiums. (As it is doubtful that more then 32 Pan-Am soccer games will be played there) more so the original Bid was to have games played at BMO. The Upgrades would allow more games to be played at BMO on a better surface in the "national soccer stadium" with as large or larger attendance

And Rugby 7 to be played on the artificial turf of Tim Hortons Field.

Of course Bob Young couldn't have gotten his new stadium for a single weekend of Rugby 7s. The whole reason Soccer was taken away from the National Soccer Stadium in the heart of the Pan Am Sports Cluster at the Ex, was to have a reason to fund the New Stadium for the Ti-Cats.

If the Federal Gov't and Provincial Gov't can justify that.. I'm sure if they can justify upgrading a stadium for a Multi-Millionaire with out a cent being spent by said millionaire.. and costing tax payers (specifically the city of Hamilton) millions, and turning the Pan-Am games into a traffic nightmare, putting Soccer (one of the more popular events) outside the core region, then they can find cash for BMO.

So yes Gov't can find a way if they really want to.

Where are you pulling that extra 10m out of? Can you please provide the article that BMO field was 10m over budget. (By my memory, it was on-time on-budget) I knew the math didn't work in terms of funding for the total, so I used the total initial funding. (as I said in my post) and those are your "facts". There is no article I can find that tells me it was over budget. So I'm not sure why you are trying to skew what I said. (Maybe if you read actually read my first post, and this post, it wouldn't sound so "insulting")

And because I actually know how past build Canada programs, and major infrastructure projects like this are funded, the more the city puts in, the more the feds/prov usually match. Which, absolutely shocked to find out that that's pretty much what happened in by the prov. governments. Federal Government tends to spend more on international events.

I'm not sure what you bring up recouping costs, I never said anything about that.

And Yes, Feds do fund structures/stadiums for international events. They don't fund them for use for professional sports teams. Look at Quebec's arena, while it did receive federal funds, It was not under a direct application to the gov. But under the Build Canada/Infrastructure fund.
It's the same with BMO expansion, it's not going to the Infrastructure minister, but the Sport minister.

Again, the main thing is that the Pan-Am committee wanted Hamilton to have the stadium from the start. It was also required to have a legacy tenant. Hamilton had already committed to renovating Ivor Wynne. The Pan-Am games were always supposed to be about the region. Putting a 2 day event in Hamilton didn't make sense for that reason.

It's funny you bring up traffic nightmare, what do you think would have happened in BMO hosted all the soccer events? It's already going to be super congested with all the events going on in a small space, and you want to bring 30,000 more people there? Yikes.

[Kaz]

Where are you pulling that extra 10m out of? Can you please provide the article that BMO field was 10m over budget. (By my memory, it was on-time on-budget) I knew the math didn't work in terms of funding for the total, so I used the total initial funding. (as I said in my post) and those are your "facts". There is no article I can find that tells me it was over budget. So I'm not sure why you are trying to skew what I said. (Maybe if you read actually read my first post, and this post, it wouldn't sound so "insulting").

I've updated... the numbers were missing 10 Million because of naming rights which MLSE paid for and then resold to BMO.

Naming rights are expected to account for another $10 million

cash investment of $62.8M with contribution of $35.0M from Federal and Provincial governments; $9.8M from City and $8.0M from MLSE and contribution of an additional $10.0M from MLSE in anticipation of revenues to be received by MLSE for the sale of naming rights

It was actually one of the points brought up at the council meeting.

Major Highways don't need to have lanes shut down over 60km for events at the EX, and the EX handles it every year. I'm sure if Bob Young had put in $20 to the Ti-Cats new home, that money could have been used to upgrade the Go Platform, and entrance and help pay for extra service to the ex. (All the work being on Lakeshore is designed for that purpose, and a few extra million likely would have helped.)

Hamilton shouldn't have hosted anything but the Rugby 7 particularly on turf, and it could have been put at Varsity Stadium. This is just more evidence of the Feds willing to back door fund these kinds of stadiums.. if they didn't then Bob Young would have been forced to open his pocket book.

My Facts are all reported in multiple outlets... this is a web forum I'm not going to provide a bibliography. I have repeated shown my work anyway... you haven't.

And calling out a simple typo in the insulting manner you did and then getting nearly all your numbers wrong... is laughable.. I suggest as I have stated repeatedly.. to drop the financial side of things until actual info from the province and feds come in.

[Mulder]

I've updated... the numbers were missing 10 Million because of naming rights which MLSE paid for and then resold to BMO.
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It was actually one of the points brought up at the council meeting.

Major Highways don't need to have lanes shut down over 60km for events at the EX, and the EX handles it every year. I'm sure if Bob Young had put in $20 to the Ti-Cats new home, that money could have been used to upgrade the Go Platform, and entrance and help pay for extra service to the ex. (All the work being on Lakeshore is designed for that purpose, and a few extra million likely would have helped.)

Hamilton shouldn't have hosted anything but the Rugby 7 particularly on turf, and it could have been put at Varsity Stadium. This is just more evidence of the Feds willing to back door fund these kinds of stadiums.. if they didn't then Bob Young would have been forced to open his pocket book.

My Facts are all reported in multiple outlets... this is a web forum I'm not going to provide a bibliography. I have repeated shown my work anyway... you haven't.

And calling out a simple typo in the insulting manner you did and then getting nearly all your numbers wrong... is laughable.. I suggest as I have stated repeatedly.. to drop the financial side of things until actual info from the province and feds come in.

What's actually funny, is saying you are reporting on these facts. Yet, all you have done vs me is give your opinion that Hamilton should have hosted Rugby 7's. That's actually laughable. You know, trying to get away with what you are actually trying to say is backed up by facts, when it's a matter of opinion.

Facts are:

• It was decided well before Golden Horseshoe got the Pan-Am games that the Stadium would be in Hamilton for Soccer. - You are trying to argue against this "fact"
• The new stadium needed a legacy tenant.
• When Toronto won the pan am games, BMO field was 2 years only.
• You've stated "BMO field is a small fraction" compared to Hamilton's stadium, I've proved you otherwise even despite getting the numbers mixed up.
• You've continually argued how "no ones going to recoup the money" despite me not saying a single thing on this. Then telling me this is backed up by facts. Even without me saying a word on this topic.
• It wasn't Bob Young's choice to have either Rugby 7's or Soccer in Hamilton, but you decided it was his fault.
• That "Multi-Millionaire" is not the owner of the stadium, he is just a tenant. His rent for that stadium went up from $45,000 a year to $450,000 a year. Landlords typically make any capital investments & repairs. Not tenants, as a current renter I'm allowed to paint, but not remodel the kitchen.
• Bob Young had also invested millions at Ivor Wynne regardless. There is a quote floating around to the tune of 30 million.
• It's all major highways that are going to have a "Pan-am Lane" And you don't seem to have a good sense as to how much is going to be going on at ExPlace.
• There is no "Backdoor" deal between feds (despite you claiming this as "fact") As I said it my first point, it was decided long ago that Hamilton was getting the new stadium.
• You have not once told me to drop the financial side of things (despite you telling me to drop it .. "repeatedly")

Then again, your the one who decided to start an argument with me. When all I said was Hamilton's stadium had 5 years left and was due for a major renovation anyways. You brought up all this other stuff trying to "prove" something.

[Fort York Redcoat]

What's actually funny, is saying you are reporting on these facts. Yet, all you have done vs me is give your opinion that Hamilton should have hosted Rugby 7's. That's actually laughable. You know, trying to get away with what you are actually trying to say is backed up by facts, when it's a matter of opinion.

Facts are:

• It was decided well before Golden Horseshoe got the Pan-Am games that the Stadium would be in Hamilton for Soccer. - You are trying to argue against this "fact"
• The new stadium needed a legacy tenant.
• When Toronto won the pan am games, BMO field was 2 years only.
• You've stated "BMO field is a small fraction" compared to Hamilton's stadium, I've proved you otherwise even despite getting the numbers mixed up.
• You've continually argued how "no ones going to recoup the money" despite me not saying a single thing on this. Then telling me this is backed up by facts. Even without me saying a word on this topic.
• It wasn't Bob Young's choice to have either Rugby 7's or Soccer in Hamilton, but you decided it was his fault.
• That "Multi-Millionaire" is not the owner of the stadium, he is just a tenant. His rent for that stadium went up from $45,000 a year to $450,000 a year. Landlords typically make any capital investments & repairs. Not tenants, as a current renter I'm allowed to paint, but not remodel the kitchen.
• Bob Young had also invested millions at Ivor Wynne regardless. There is a quote floating around to the tune of 30 million.
• It's all major highways that are going to have a "Pan-am Lane" And you don't seem to have a good sense as to how much is going to be going on at ExPlace.
• There is no "Backdoor" deal between feds (despite you claiming this as "fact") As I said it my first point, it was decided long ago that Hamilton was getting the new stadium.
• You have not once told me to drop the financial side of things (despite you telling me to drop it .. "repeatedly")

Then again, your the one who decided to start an argument with me. When all I said was Hamilton's stadium had 5 years left and was due for a major renovation anyways. You brought up all this other stuff trying to "prove" something.

Don't label these as facts unless you provide them again.

That is a goose and gander issue.

I don't find it funny.

[Kaz]

What's actually funny, is saying you are reporting on these facts. Yet, all you have done vs me is give your opinion that Hamilton should have hosted Rugby 7's. That's actually laughable. You know, trying to get away with what you are actually trying to say is backed up by facts, when it's a matter of opinion.

Facts are:

• It was decided well before Golden Horseshoe got the Pan-Am games that the Stadium would be in Hamilton for Soccer. - You are trying to argue against this "fact"
• The new stadium needed a legacy tenant.
• When Toronto won the pan am games, BMO field was 2 years only.
• You've stated "BMO field is a small fraction" compared to Hamilton's stadium, I've proved you otherwise even despite getting the numbers mixed up.
• You've continually argued how "no ones going to recoup the money" despite me not saying a single thing on this. Then telling me this is backed up by facts. Even without me saying a word on this topic.
• It wasn't Bob Young's choice to have either Rugby 7's or Soccer in Hamilton, but you decided it was his fault.
• That "Multi-Millionaire" is not the owner of the stadium, he is just a tenant. His rent for that stadium went up from $45,000 a year to $450,000 a year. Landlords typically make any capital investments & repairs. Not tenants, as a current renter I'm allowed to paint, but not remodel the kitchen.
• Bob Young had also invested millions at Ivor Wynne regardless. There is a quote floating around to the tune of 30 million.
• It's all major highways that are going to have a "Pan-am Lane" And you don't seem to have a good sense as to how much is going to be going on at ExPlace.
• There is no "Backdoor" deal between feds (despite you claiming this as "fact") As I said it my first point, it was decided long ago that Hamilton was getting the new stadium.
• You have not once told me to drop the financial side of things (despite you telling me to drop it .. "repeatedly")

Then again, your the one who decided to start an argument with me. When all I said was Hamilton's stadium had 5 years left and was due for a major renovation anyways. You brought up all this other stuff trying to "prove" something.

Lets go point by point. Prior to 2011 Soccer was going to be at BMO. It was change in 2012 around the same time the insane amounts of money were being given by the federal gov't. (the is from the orginal Pan Am Bid

The Ti-Cats nor Hamilton were going to get a new stadium which was always for the Ti-Cats which is why they gave in to try to save Bob Young from moving or selling the team to be moved.

BMO field was originally set to be expandable to 30,000 seats, and was a Soccer Specific Stadium and it was just two years old.. there was no need for a 145 million dollar stadium in Hamilton unless it was holding more events, Rugby 7 and track was the orginal idea iirc correctly, but Track was removed to make it more CFL friendly and more money was spent in York.

$10 Million is a small fraction of $69 million 1/7th in fact.

Your original post was in support of TFC07 my comments were in relation to the comments he made as well as the over all discussion of the thread.

Bob Young is the reason it is Soccer on Turf not Rugby 7 because it was initially going to have a track around it and would host rugby and track. So yes it is his fault.

MLSE is not the owner of BMO field, MLSE put in money for BMO field, pays have the capital repairs, and is offering to pay for the upgrades while upping it's rent. Toronto only put in 9.8 Million and that money will be brought back to the city. There is not Property taxes value.

MLSE has already put in $30 million into BMO just since 2007. Bob Young has owned the Ti-Cats since 2003.

The Ex is hosting
Basketball, Racket Ball, Squash, Handball, Rollerskating and Rugby 7s
in that area
Marathons, Triatholon, Volleyball, Gymnastics, Swimming, Cycling and water skiing

In side the downtown core
Field Hockey, Archery, and Sailing.

Soccer is 32 matches over the course of the Week. Which was moved because the 47 track events had to be moved to York.

I'd agree about the back door part, except that stadium location, configurations, and amenities were all dictated by the Ti-Cats. When the Plan is to have Rugby and Track in Hamilton, and that has to be changed to justify the money when the Ti-Cats force the removal of the track... well that is a back door stadium deal.

Tim Hudak is crying foul over 10 million, where is the cry over the 22.3 million they put into Hamilton?

Again I'm referring to the thread as a whole... This isn't a thread with just you and me in it. If you aren't going to read at least the last few pages... then why comment? Heck I said it in the last post in the thread when you commented.

And I'll save you the trouble no I'm not going to give you any "proof", it is there, go find it..

[Mulder]

Lets go point by point. Prior to 2011 Soccer was going to be at BMO. It was change in 2012 around the same time the insane amounts of money were being given by the federal gov't. (the is from the orginal Pan Am Bid)

Yet, by the time the games were awarded, it was already decided it would be in Hamilton, Which is what I said.
Your Time-line is completely out to lunch. There is a thread on Ticats.ca which clearly states talks went far earlier. Go find your facts for yourself. There's even links to news articles!

http://forums.cfl.ca/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=55543

The Ti-Cats nor Hamilton were going to get a new stadium which was always for the Ti-Cats which is why they gave in to try to save Bob Young from moving or selling the team to be moved.

God, I've read the engineering reports that gave Ivor Wynne 5-10 years before a major rehab needed to be done. They are on the Internet. The City was well aware they needed to renovate, they knew they needed to spend 70-100m. That is not the case at all, and you are stating a matter of opinion, not fact. (I've presented facts that the place was due for a major rehab) Even the original construction plans

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/...oadtesting.pdf

BMO field was originally set to be expandable to 30,000 seats, and was a Soccer Specific Stadium and it was just two years old.. there was no need for a 145 million dollar stadium in Hamilton unless it was holding more events, Rugby 7 and track was the orginal idea iirc correctly, but Track was removed to make it more CFL friendly and more money was spent in York.

See my first point, this changed well before your time-line

$10 Million is a small fraction of $69 million 1/7th in fact.

In terms of federal and prov funding percentage they received very similar amount. This is what we were debating, as I said, with how this funds works, the more the city puts in the more the federal and prov. will match. I'm not even sure where you got this number from

Your original post was in support of TFC07 my comments were in relation to the comments he made as well as the over all discussion of the thread.

My comment was specifically to the point that no new tax revenue is generated because of disposable income. Looking back at it I don't know why it didn't quote his post. I'm sorry if this caused you all this confusion. But I did state where "new" revenue could be calculated from.

Bob Young is the reason it is Soccer on Turf not Rugby 7 because it was initially going to have a track around it and would host rugby and track. So yes it is his fault.

Honestly, I really want to see you back this one up. Considering how far off your stadium time is. I haven't found a single hit of evidence of this, nor heard anything. So Link me please.

MLSE is not the owner of BMO field, MLSE put in money for BMO field, pays have the capital repairs, and is offering to pay for the upgrades while upping it's rent. Toronto only put in 9.8 Million and that money will be brought back to the city. There is not Property taxes value.

Increase in property taxes surrounding the area.

MLSE has already put in $30 million into BMO just since 2007. Bob Young has owned the Ti-Cats since 2003.

Provide Proof Please
By my count -
3.5m - Grass
2.0m - North Stands

I'd really like to know where this extra 24.5 million went. What else has changed at BMO between then?!?! (If you said 10m, i would be more inclined to believe you)

The Ex is hosting
Basketball, Racket Ball, Squash, Handball, Rollerskating and Rugby 7s
in that area
Marathons, Triatholon, Volleyball, Gymnastics, Swimming, Cycling and water skiing

In side the downtown core
Field Hockey, Archery, and Sailing.

Soccer is 32 matches over the course of the Week. Which was moved because the 47 track events had to be moved to York.

I'd agree about the back door part, except that stadium location, configurations, and amenities were all dictated by the Ti-Cats. When the Plan is to have Rugby and Track in Hamilton, and that has to be changed to justify the money when the Ti-Cats force the removal of the track... well that is a back door stadium deal.

Need proof of backroom deal to remove track. remember, this is a "fact" (IMO, it was more the bickering of location that lead to removal by the pan-am committee because they needed a track)
West Harbour was a bad location for a stadium. "Closer" to Toronto maybe. But would have taken those travelling to Toronto an extra 30m+ to get home after the game.

Tim Hudak is crying foul over 10 million, where is the cry over the 22.3 million they put into Hamilton?

Because the funding already had money allocated for Pan-Am events. Politics is full of the other party crying foul when the party in power does something.

Again I'm referring to the thread as a whole... This isn't a thread with just you and me in it. If you aren't going to read at least the last few pages... then why comment? Heck I said it in the last post in the thread when you commented.

Then why are you trying to debate with me, quoting me, and bringing up stuff to me that I never talked about or mentioned?

And I'll save you the trouble no I'm not going to give you any "proof", it is there, go find it..

I've requested a few, I suggest you back up these facts with your "proof". Because if I can't find it, it's very likely that it doesn't exist.

[Kaz]

Mulder I'm done with you.. You are picking the points that are made and changing their meaning to suit you...

You aren't willing to do the research to find the information or you have... and I'm not wasting time going back to find this stiff, and then annotating a friggin web forum.. I've repeatedly backed up my statements with links. You have shown nothing..

No one argued Ivor Wynne didn't need upgrades... but they weren't coming without federal money... federal money wouldn't come without Pan-Am Games. Soccer was up to 2011 was planned for BMO. Track and Rugby 7 in Hamilton to give the ti-cats a new stadium. Track was removed because the Ti-Cats didn't want it, Location was moved because the Ti-Cats didn't want it. With no Track events, Feds weren't going to spent 69 million for 2 days of play (opinion based on facts), Soccer moved from the National Soccer Stadium to Hamilton Turf to justify the large cost.

The Point being made is that if all of this was done to give the Ti-Cats a new Stadium then the federal Gov't will find a way if they want to, fund BMO.

Once again lets leave the Financial stuff on the back burner because it is just spinning wheels.

You are upset because I don't like that the Ti-Cats cried to get a new stadium, and you are some how trying to justify it... I don't care that you are a Ti-Cats fan. The Ti-Cats stadium was brought up as an example. This thread is not about the Ti-Cats. I'm sure as hell not wasting my time arguing about it, particularly as I could likely show you flat out documents you won't read anyway and claim they say something else.

[Mulder]

Mulder I'm down with you.. You are picking the points that are made and changing their meaning to suit you...

You aren't willing to do the research to find the information or you have... and I'm not wasting time going back to find this stiff, and then annotating a friggin web forum.. I've repeatedly backed up my statements with links. You have shown nothing..

No one argued Ivor Wynne didn't need upgrades... but they weren't coming without federal money... federal money wouldn't come without Pan-Am Games. Soccer was up to 2011 was planned for BMO. Track and Rugby 7 in Hamilton to give the ti-cats a new stadium. Track was removed because the Ti-Cats didn't want it, Location was moved because the Ti-Cats didn't want it. With no Track events, Feds weren't going to spent 69 million for 2 days of play (opinion based on facts), Soccer moved from the National Soccer Stadium to Hamilton Turf to justify the large cost.

The Point being made is that if all of this was done to give the Ti-Cats a new Stadium then the federal Gov't will find a way if they want to, fund BMO.

Once again lets leave the Financial stuff on the back burner because it is just spinning wheels.

You are upset because I don't like that the Ti-Cats cried to get a new stadium, and you are some how trying to justify it... I don't care that you are a Ti-Cats fan. The Ti-Cats stadium was brought up as an example. This thread is not about the Ti-Cats. I'm sure as hell not wasting my time arguing about it, particularly as I could likely show you flat out documents you won't read anyway and claim they say something else.

I'm not picking and changing points at all.

You have not provided me with any links to what I asked for. I'm going to assume you cannot find them. Are you not willing to do the research? You using the excuse of "I'm not wasting my time" . That's a lame excuse for the lazy. You have not presented me with ONE link. It's sad, because you've said you have. (Fact).

I've proved you wrong on your stadium time-line. You haven't backed that up. I have. (Just read the Ticats Stadium thread I posted....From 2010) The first mention of Soccer also comes in 2010. (even though I have "Shown you Nothing")

http://forums.ticats.ca/viewtopic.ph...soccer#p925989

You've argued me to leave funding out of it, yet you are kept bringing it up.

All I asked for is a short list. Half your points I don't even address but you go on the offensive with them, then yell "facts facts" when I don't even state a disagreement.

Finally, it's funny, I'm not even a Ticat Fan. But you assumed that to be fact and ran with it. Which begs the question, what else have you assumed to be fact in this exchange, ran with, and then mislead the other poor people attempting to follow this?

[TFC07]

This is news because many believe NFL will make a condition to take care Argos if MLSE wants to be part of Toronto NFL team. So this is why Argos are moving to BMO field and MLSE being open to owning them.

​Jon Bon Jovi indeed wants to become an NFL owner and is part a Toronto group expected to bid for the Buffalo Bills, QMI Agency has learned.On Thursday, Bon Jovi's publicist confirmed the Livin' on a Prayer singer is a player.

Source: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/04/10...o-bid-on-bills

[Haddy]

This is news because many believe NFL will make a condition to take care Argos if MLSE wants to be part of Toronto NFL team. So this is why Argos are moving to BMO field and MLSE being open to owning them. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Source: http://www.torontosun.com/2014/04/10...o-bid-on-bills

Whether or not your theory proves correct, the stadium task force has already widened the area search for a new site. Not just looking in Erie County anymore. Apparently Niagara Falls, NY, is one of many possibilities.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/nfl...niagara-falls/

No surprise there. Just doing their due diligence before a final sale / decision is made about the franchise.

I'll be interested to hear how many bids surface for the team.

[TFC07]

whether or not your theory proves correct, the stadium task force has already widened the area search for a new site. Not just looking in erie county anymore. Apparently niagara falls, ny, is one of many possibilities.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/nfl...niagara-falls/

no surprise there. Just doing their due diligence before a final sale / decision is made about the franchise.

I'll be interested to hear how many bids surface for the team.

niagara falls is 30 minutes closer by car than orchard park to a growing southern ontario fan base. The bills estimate canadians make up about 18 per cent of their season-ticket base.

Former Erie County Executive Joel Giambra said the southern Ontario market is critical to the Bills’ future. Giambra said Wilson discussed with him the possibility of the team playing home games in St. Catharines, Ontario, while maintaining its headquarters in New York."They were aggressively trying to figure out how to tap that Canadian marketplace because of the economics," Giambra said.

This is just desperate attempt from these politicians to keep Bills in Western New York while looking like they're doing something to keep voters happy.

I highly doubt new owners are crazy enough to stay in small market and hope Canadians are willing to travel is good for their financial health in the long term. I still believe Bills are moving to new location (Toronto and L.A being two possible location).

MLSE or one of parties in MLSE buying Argos and putting them at BMO field makes more sense now if their ultimate goal to land Toronto NFL team. With CSA world cup bidding, MLSE will be all over it and help CSA build their 80,000 seat stadium to host world cup and get government funding for stadium through that route.

EDIT: This is why in Argos POV moving to BMO field will hurt them in the long term if MLSE and other investors somehow landed NFL team. Moving to BMO field and being owned by MLSE can become kiss of death for Argos.

[nascarguy]

all I have to say is that Tim Leiweke will get what he wants and no one can stand in his way.

[Fort York Redcoat]

what else have you assumed to be fact in this exchange, ran with, and then mislead the other poor people attempting to follow this?

No one is following this. If you two want to continue your debate take it to PM's.

Please feel free to discuss any of the issues of this topic aimed at all.

[Beach_Red]

This is just desperate attempt from these politicians to keep Bills in Western New York while looking like they're doing something to keep voters happy.

I highly doubt new owners are crazy enough to stay in small market and hope Canadians are willing to travel is good for their financial health in the long term. I still believe Bills are moving to new location (Toronto and L.A being two possible location).

MLSE or one of parties in MLSE buying Argos and putting them at BMO field makes more sense now if their ultimate goal to land Toronto NFL team. With CSA world cup bidding, MLSE will be all over it and help CSA build their 80,000 seat stadium to host world cup and get government funding for stadium through that route.

EDIT: This is why in Argos POV moving to BMO field will hurt them in the long term if MLSE and other investors somehow landed NFL team. Moving to BMO field and being owned by MLSE can become kiss of death for Argos.

This is interesting. The revenue-sharing in the NFL makes the size of the local market less important than it is for other leagues so the Bills could stay in western New York. There's also not much competition in the sports market there, unlike LA and even Toronto with MLB, NBA, etc..

I sure hope there's no government money put into a World Cup bid (how much of it would be for bribes?) or an NFL stadium but it's not like we'll get to vote in a referendum or anything like that.

[Pookie]

all I have to say is that Tim Leiweke will get what he wants and no one can stand in his way.

Really? He didn't get a NFL team in LA…

[TFC07]

This is interesting. The revenue-sharing in the NFL makes the size of the local market less important than it is for other leagues so the Bills could stay in western New York. There's also not much competition in the sports market there, unlike LA and even Toronto with MLB, NBA, etc..

I sure hope there's no government money put into a World Cup bid (how much of it would be for bribes?) or an NFL stadium but it's not like we'll get to vote in a referendum or anything like that.

Yes, but they have very high standards which Buffalo simply can't meet. They don't sell out games despite their cheap ticket prices (one of the cheapest in NFL) and play in stadium which isn't good enough in the long term. Then add the fact they play in market where economy isn't doing well and have to rely on foreigners (Canadians) to sell their product.

Toronto NFL team will bring a lot more cash for NFL (higher ticket prices, increased Canadian TV money, more sponsorship deals while creating more fans for NFL) and help them expand outside of USA.

Toronto is already considered Bills territory, so there shouldn't be any issue and conflict if Toronto group ends up owning Bills and move them to Toronto in 2020.

[nascarguy]

did he really want the team in LA.

[Beach_Red]

Yes, but they have very high standards which Buffalo simply can't meet. They don't sell out games despite their cheap ticket prices (one of the cheapest in NFL) and play in stadium which isn't good enough in the long term. Then add the fact they play in market where economy isn't doing well and have to rely on foreigners (Canadians) to sell their product.

Toronto NFL team will bring a lot more cash for NFL (higher ticket prices, increased Canadian TV money, more sponsorship deals while creating more fans for NFL) and help them expand outside of USA.

Toronto is already considered Bills territory, so there shouldn't be any issue and conflict if Toronto group ends up owning Bills and move them to Toronto in 2020.

Sure, if the owners are approved and they build a stadium the NFL would have no problem with the move.

I don't understand how the TV money would work, though, would Bell pay more for the rights than they do now? Or would they hope that ratings would be better and they can increase advertising rates? The NFL on TV is pretty big in this market now, how much bigger would it get? It doesn't seem like enough added revenue to make up the billion dollars for the team and the billion dollars for the stadium.

Anyway, it'll be fun to watch these guys make their sales pitch.

[nascarguy]

I think bell and rogers would make a deal with NFL to own the rights to the Canadian market just like they did for the NHL

[TFC07]

Sure, if the owners are approved and they build a stadium the NFL would have no problem with the move.

I don't understand how the TV money would work, though, would Bell pay more for the rights than they do now? Or would they hope that ratings would be better and they can increase advertising rates? The NFL on TV is pretty big in this market now, how much bigger would it get? It doesn't seem like enough added revenue to make up the billion dollars for the team and the billion dollars for the stadium.

I can't give a number, but Toronto NFL team will definitely boost Canadian TV ratings and presence in this country. Also, Rogers will probably try to outbid Bell to get NFL TV rights with Canadian NFL team in it. So I can see bidding war which will bump up TV money for NFL.

It's going to be fun to see how Toronto group sale the idea to NFL if they manage to buy Bills from Wilson family (who will sale it to highest bidder regardless bidder intention keeping Bills in Buffalo or not)

[nascarguy]

bell and rogers both make 20 billion plus and then you got bon jovi personal net worth is about $300 million. Tanenbaum’s net worth is $1.18 billion

Bills price tag could be up in the neighbourhood of $1 billion or more

[Beach_Red]

I can't give a number, but Toronto NFL team will definitely boost Canadian TV ratings and presence in this country. Also, Rogers will probably try to outbid Bell to get NFL TV rights with Canadian NFL team in it. So I can see bidding war which will bump up TV money for NFL.

It's going to be fun to see how Toronto group sale the idea to NFL if they manage to buy Bills from Wilson family (who will sale it to highest bidder regardless bidder intention keeping Bills in Buffalo or not)

Well, they didn't sell the Jets to the highest bidder, so it will be interesting.

And I don't understand why Bell and Rogers (partnered in MLSE) would buy the team together and then bid against each other to buy the TV rights - especially when there's no one else to bid. Although it would be good for them to be on both sides of the negotiation, I guess. We're never worried about collusion in Canada, for some reason.

As long as Bon Jovi doesn't sing the anthems at every game...

[Commie Red]

TV revenues will only increase if TV viewership in Canada goes up significantly -- it's as simple as that. I believe there's very little room for any increase in Canadian viewership (beyond the opening games, etc.). The NFL market in Canada is very mature. Also, if Toronto does get an NFL team it will not be, by any means, considered "Canada's Team" in the rest of the country -- no matter what Rogers tries to tell people.

What many NFL in Toronto boosters fail to take into account is that millions of Canadians, many of them devout gridiron fans, see NFL expansion into Canada as an attack on a 105 year old Canadian institution. The CFL is, arguably, a somewhat neglected institution in these parts, but it is a Canadian institution all the same. And many people follow and admire it, just as we do with TFC. Many of these gridiron fans, including a sizable chunk in Southern Ontario, will be hostile to the NFLs arrival and will respond accordingly. This was one factor never truly or publicly acknowledged in the analysis of the dismal failure surrounding the "Bills in Toronto" debacle. Many CFL fans do like the NFL but they like it on their TV or once a year in Buffalo -- and they don't want it destroying their game. Expanding BMO to accommodate the Argos is, of course, one step towards alleviating the animosity among, what should be, a core potential audience of Toronto gridiron fans (as well as saving the NFL from further antitrust scrutiny in the U.S.). I just don't think it will be enough: especially after a honeymoon period and Toronto is loosing and ticket prices are set to recoup a $2Billion investment.

[greatwhitenorf]

TV revenues will only increase if TV viewership in Canada goes up significantly -- it's as simple as that. I believe there's very little room for any increase in Canadian viewership (beyond the opening games, etc.). The NFL market in Canada is very mature. Also, if Toronto does get an NFL team it will not be, by any means, considered "Canada's Team" in the rest of the country -- no matter what Rogers tries to tell people.

What many NFL in Toronto boosters fail to take into account is that millions of Canadians, many of them devout gridiron fans, see NFL expansion into Canada as an attack on a 105 year old Canadian institution. The CFL is, arguably, a somewhat neglected institution in these parts, but it is a Canadian institution all the same. And many people follow and admire it, just as we do with TFC. Many of these gridiron fans, including a sizable chunk in Southern Ontario, will be hostile to the NFLs arrival and will respond accordingly. This was one factor never truly or publicly acknowledged in the analysis of the dismal failure surrounding the "Bills in Toronto" debacle. Many CFL fans do like the NFL but they like it on their TV or once a year in Buffalo -- and they don't want it destroying their game. Expanding BMO to accommodate the Argos is, of course, one step towards alleviating the animosity among, what should be, a core potential audience of Toronto gridiron fans (as well as saving the NFL from further antitrust scrutiny in the U.S.). I just don't think it will be enough: especially after a honeymoon period and Toronto is loosing and ticket prices are set to recoup a $2Billion investment.

Somewhere below Lebanon, PA, Grand Rapids, MI, Spartanburg, SC, Albuquerque, NM, and Keep-It-Weird Austin, TX is the national television market ranking of Buffalo, NY.

It's population and economic clout are shrivelling, even as we speak. After decades of regional toxic waste scandals, it has absolutely zero tourist-destination appeal. And yet it remains full of wonderful people, many of whom are passionate football fans. I don't want to see Toronto enter the NFL on the backs of these great fans. A Bills game is a great day out and the whole tailgate experience goes off on a level we will never be legally allowed to experience.

The NFL is acutely aware of how its various marketplaces are performing. That's why Buffalo is vulnerable. That's why Jacksonville Jaguars are bound for London, England very soon. TV network ratings might be important today, but web-casting is the way of the future and in that model, you need market places with size and economic clout. And the league wants to grow itself internationally. England and Canada offer the simplest platforms to achieve that.

The CFL might have a great history. That doesn't guarantee it a great future.

It's popularity is largely boosted by the work TSN puts into promoting it. That's a network that's just been given a proper tonkin' by Rogers Sportsnet and not the one I'd be looking for to prop up my league going forward. Ever wonder how much enmity exists between the CFL/Argos and Rogers? The football press box at the Rogers Centre is decorated exclusively with Bills and NFL photos.

The Argos will be given a cuddling and a cradling in the newly-renovated BMO Field. The NFL will be able to look on the situation and say to itself, 'Fine, the CFL has been cared for...' and proceed with plans to create a Toronto franchise, however that needs to be achieved. Whatever happens to the CFL in this town after that is Mark 'Little Mac' Cohon's problem. The NFL can move forward in good conscience.

A few years hence, once Toronto is firmly settled in as a proper NFL franchise, this city will host a Super Bowl. Think that's whack?

Just Google Jason La Canfora, a very well-connected NFL columnist for CBS Sports, once formerly employed by the NFL Network. Guys like this don't spout shit just to drive up their on-line audience.

[molenshtain]

TV revenues will only increase if TV viewership in Canada goes up significantly -- it's as simple as that. I believe there's very little room for any increase in Canadian viewership (beyond the opening games, etc.). The NFL market in Canada is very mature. Also, if Toronto does get an NFL team it will not be, by any means, considered "Canada's Team" in the rest of the country -- no matter what Rogers tries to tell people.

What many NFL in Toronto boosters fail to take into account is that millions of Canadians, many of them devout gridiron fans, see NFL expansion into Canada as an attack on a 105 year old Canadian institution. The CFL is, arguably, a somewhat neglected institution in these parts, but it is a Canadian institution all the same. And many people follow and admire it, just as we do with TFC. Many of these gridiron fans, including a sizable chunk in Southern Ontario, will be hostile to the NFLs arrival and will respond accordingly. This was one factor never truly or publicly acknowledged in the analysis of the dismal failure surrounding the "Bills in Toronto" debacle. Many CFL fans do like the NFL but they like it on their TV or once a year in Buffalo -- and they don't want it destroying their game. Expanding BMO to accommodate the Argos is, of course, one step towards alleviating the animosity among, what should be, a core potential audience of Toronto gridiron fans (as well as saving the NFL from further antitrust scrutiny in the U.S.). I just don't think it will be enough: especially after a honeymoon period and Toronto is loosing and ticket prices are set to recoup a $2Billion investment.

I think you'd find that most of the fans who think the CFL is an irreplaceable Canadian institution don't reside in southern Ontario. most of them are in Alberta or Saskatchewan or Manitoba.and we have to assume that most of those people have been brought up from childhood to be a fan of the 'Riders or whoever 'cuz there aren't exactly a lot of people who aren't fans of a certain team but are fans of the league, which is very similiar to MLS actually. It's a very regional thing. And frankly, there are an absolute ton of people who have moved to the GTA in the last 40-50 years who could not give two heaping shits about keeping the CFL safe. It's just not on their radar. And I think saying that people from from the GTA and southern Ontario only like NFL games on their TV is kind of ridiculous. It's better football, that league has more characters, more narratives, better stadiums, a better look. I gaurentee you that would be the No.1 thing (or maybe No.2 behind the Leafs) every sports fan (that's including casuals. on that note actually, has anyone noticed the rapidly growing trend of very attractive young women going to Jays games? I was at a the game on Thursday and I swear there were more women 18-28 in the 500 level than men) will look to be at at the end of the week. Not to mention, the Raptors and Leafs rarely play on sundays and the Jays and TFC don't overlap much, I'm sure they'd do fine.

The Bills in Toronto thing was horribly marketed and a generally terrible idea. I don't think anyone is saying the results of that are similiar to the results of what would happen if we had our own team in a new stadium.

[Commie Red]

My point, still not addressed, is that the NFL - BECAUSE it is already so popular -- has little room to grow as far as Canadian TV audiences are concerned. Therefore, to argue that expansion into Canada can somehow be justified because it creats a new audience is fallacious. Furthermore, the presence of an NFL team in Toronto will not endear the NFL to gridiron fans in other parts of Canada (where you rightly point out the CFL is very popular) -- quite the opposite.

I think the "Bills in Toronto" series demonstrated, among other things, that pissing-off the hard core gridiron fans in Toronto who actually pay good money and buy season tickets to that form of football -- is not a road to success. NFL boosters with all their excuses about the failure of that series sound just like Ted Rogers did, before the series started, chuckling about how he was going to be rolling in the dough. He and the boosters read the market wrong.

[Beach_Red]

^ Well, yes, that's just it. Would a Toronto Bills-Miami Dolphins game get many more TV viewers than a Buffalo Bills-Miami Dolphins game? Are there many people who are now not watching the NFL on TV who will start watching because one of the teams plays out of Toronto? Would Bell pay the NFL even more for Toronto Bills games than they pay now for the rights to the entire league?

So we're really talking about gate receipts from 8 home games.