Originally Posted by TFC07
Because you continue to argue things based on one report from the office of one minister a minister likely not involved in the process.
You keep trying to argue something in a manner that makes no sense.
Yes... They will finanlly get it
No.... They will screw this up royally
hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?
Because you continue to argue things based on one report from the office of one minister a minister likely not involved in the process.
You keep trying to argue something in a manner that makes no sense.
Last edited by Kaz; 04-01-2014 at 06:03 PM.
In 2010 Johannesburg had 2 and Petroia had 1. That is right on par with 2 in Toronto 1 in Hamilton.
At that point, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina, Montreal, and Ottawa all have stadiums that can host. that is 10. Quebec City or Halifax make 11 and you have your bid... but it would be dependent on a NFL sized Stadium.
Now we have pages of people saying the Argos thing is about the NFL coming to Toronto. The only way a 1.2 Billion Dollar Stadium is built in Canada is A) it's in Vaughan or Markham (where in the Downtown are you going to put it) and B) if it is a Public Private Venture. As TFC07 has been spouting ad nauseam, the federal government under normal conditions will not fund a professional sports facility. However we also know there are exceptions as they put in 69 million dollars to build a new stadium for the Ti-Cats. As such one could make the argument that MLSE is going to the Heritage Minister not the Infrastructure Minister, to get a little of that Pan-Am money to help upgrade BMO to be a host venue for the Rugby 7s (which would test the grass). And then they may whisper in the CSA's ear to make a bid for the 2026 World Cup which the Federal Gov't really would have to be on board with. Part of that would be a Public/Private funding of a 75-80k seat stadium, which the Rogers Family (or who ever MLSE gets to be the front face) and MLSE will use to help bid for a 2020 NFL team. With the Feds putting in (lets take a number out of the air) 500m for that stadium.
Now you have the chain that starts with 10m from the federal gov't for this... that leads to a World Cup bid and an NFL team.
Because we already have Stadiums that can host without much issues and every city involved has a decent Airport. A World Cup bid really isn't that far fetched if there is a NFL stadium. Again I don't think an NFL stadium isn't getting built without Federal money and Federal money won't come without a World Cup.
MLSE pushes for the $10m from the feds, with a promise to me a major financial backer for a serious Canadian World Cup bid.
The economic impact would be huge in every major city. The only other countries that can put a serious bit are Australia (if the can being AFC), the US, Mexico and that might be it, as right now any African Country that could host (Nigeria, Eygpt) have some civil issues. Columbia has backed out after being awarded in the past. (Nations in Europe and Asia can't bid) and I don't see Brazil hosting that soon after this last bid.
Mexico hosted in 86 and the US in 94. Both Nations could easily host it. Canada though could come up with a decent and serious bid with the right sized stadium in Toronto, and a NASL team in Quebec or Halifax. That would take the Canadian Championship up to 6 teams. It is at 5 teams this year for the first time in a decade now which so long as Edmonton doesn't fold again will tie for the largest the Voyagers Cup has gotten, if both Edmonton and Ottawa can stay solvent and a Quebec/Halifax team is produced...that is significant growth of Soccer in Canada, FIFA could easily see that progress as a reason to award a World Cup.
I want to say before today, I thought the idea of Canada hosting as being silly.. but really the only city that might have difficulty is Regina.. but they have passion and if you can get that city excited... well Regina is kinda the Green Bay of the CFL. IF you get that city excited they will do their best and succeed. Canada really could make a serious play for a world cup.. if you have a NFL sized stadium.
I doubt you will see the Bills move before 2020, if owners want to leave them there until the 2026 Buffalo fans will be happy and either them or a new franchise starts play in a new state of the art (I figured 1.5 1.7 billion dollar stadium in 2026 dollars) will be just the ticket. With $500-700m from the Feds, $150m from the Province $30-60m from the city and $800-900m from private sources. (pulling out of the bum)
What the BMO project does is shows commitment from MLSE, to the Feds, CSA, NFL, and FIFA. The money from the Feds shows commitment to FIFA.
Maybe it is all the Conspiracy Theories out there about the NFL... but ... there is a logic to the whole process in my caffeine induced state of mind
But I see it as MLSE wants the NFL to do that you need a stadium, to get federal money you need a major event. The only major event to build a NFL stadium is the World Cup, the only way to get the World Cup is if you have stable Soccer, (Canada and the US were rejected in 86) TFC needs to thrive. The only way the NFL will come is if they aren't seen as killing the Argos. so the Argos need to thrive. Buy the Argos put them in BMO. To do that you need Turf that can handle the football game. How can you test that and get federal money and start showing investment. Get Rugby 7 in BMO. Bonus you can try to get $10 million of Federal money and talk about a World Cup Bid and the NFL.
As such Pan Am games is used to test the Grassmaster pitch. Do the ground work to let the CSA produce a strong World Cup Bid, and lay the ground work for the NFL to come to Toronto by 2025/26... you want a multifaceted conspiracy theory.. there you go
Granted I'm not really so delusional to think that is actually what is happening... I mean what company really thinks that far in advance.
Last edited by Kaz; 04-01-2014 at 06:18 PM.
It's not delusional, Kaz. It's quite a realistic scenario, one that I and others have volleyed about ever since Leiweke came on board. You can't attract an accomplished individual of his calibre without being able to offer him an adequate challenge. He's not here to maintain status quo. He's here to build a big machine.
It's interesting to see the debate on what's the acceptable number of venues for a Canadian World Cup. There have been two venues, or more, in a main city during several events. Mexico City in 1986 had Azteca, Olympic and Nezahualcoyotl stadiums in play and used the 50k ground now home to Cruz Azul as a practice facility. The French staged the '98 WC with only 10 venues total, two in Paris. The Koreans and Japanese each utilized eight venues each as they shared the 2002 WC. The upcoming Brazilian WC is looking like a bit of a joke, putting terrible strains on everyone - from the cost and effort to build several new stadiums - some totally unnecessary - to forcing fans to migrate across a huge nation after every game.
Given the controversy surrounding the selection of Russia and Qatar, the word is that FIFA is looking for somewhere safe to stage the next event. Canada has an excellent reputation within FIFA after successfully staging a number of minor World Cups - U17 and U20 events for both men and women. We have also staged excellent Olympic Games. After the Russian and Qatari (if it actually comes off) events, which will fall in time zones amenable to European viewers, this one would easily appease viewers throughout the Americas.
And don't be shocked if Qatar's WC falls apart. It would be nice to be ready as a substitute host, but I'd be betting on a European nation taking that role.
The other point about adding stadiums in Canada is that of all the stadiums being discussed, a great many also play host to CFL clubs. Where are they supposed to play when the WC is on? It might become necessary to have extra venues available in order to let a couple of games get played in CFL sites, then get out so they can get on with their league.
That would make it feasible to put money into Montreal's Saputo Stadium as a second venue there (Que. City is just two hours drive away), which would be great for Canadian soccer. I could also see the Vancouver Whitecaps being opportunists and looking to revive their stadium project if the gravy train is rolling. Again, great for the Canadian game going forward. That's the sort of thing FIFA will smile on and the Canadian government will support since soccer is looked upon as a great marketing tool for drawing desirable immigrants to Canada.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 04-01-2014 at 07:19 PM.
You can host the World Cup in early June and have it end in early July (Russia 2018 is June 8th to July 8th)
CFL dosen't start to end of June. You delay the CFL season by two weeks, push the season back one week to middle of November and Eliminate a bye week or truncate the season a little. You'd need a week to remove the grass and install the turf anyway after the games.
That is the biggest cost issues really putting in a good grass pitch at every venue.
And as you mentioned the French World Cup.. many of those stadiums were under 40,000 seats.
1994 in the US is still the most attended World Cup ever. If 2022 has to be moved at some point, a return to the US would be a top choice. Selling out NFL Stadiums brings in quite a bit of revenue.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
Oh for sure.. a Canadian bid wouldn't be a sure thing if the US or even Mexico bid... but hey it is possible and not outside the realm of possibility. I am more convinced of the visibility today then I was yesterday when I thought it was insane.
Part of the Australian bid was finding an amicable solution (which I believe they sort of did) to cutting 5 or 6 weeks into the Australian Rules Football season, which a WC Down Under would have done...if the Aussies could figure it out for their sports; surely Canada can figure it out for CFL.
Last edited by prizby; 04-01-2014 at 09:41 PM.
I am trying not to be rude, but I feel that a really interesting and important thread is being sidelined by pages of impassioned discussion about what I believe the vast majority think is an exceedingly remote scenario.
If someone is arguing that the Canadian World Cup bid is a smokescreen for getting government money, OK, but for those who'd seriously like to argue the merits of a Canadian World Cup bid, I'd really suggest a different thread.
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.
I just do not see the viability a World Cup final sized stadium in Toronto without a NFL team and that in my eyes is a long shot at best. It is a billion dollar deal that I just do not see anything individual stepping up to do anytime soon. Based on the NFL requirements of individual ownership and the primary investor having at least a 30 per cent share it would be quite costly for such a person.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
...even with Edward Rogers III and family having $7.6 Billion in wealth, and at 30% minimum they would only have to put down a minimum of about $300M. Thats only 4% of their wealth. 4%! And there's nothing saying they cant finance some of that $300M either if they really wanted to.
Even if they dropped down $1 Billion in cash, thats only 13% of heir wealth.
And buying an NFL team would have to be looked at as an investment, like buying a condo. You would expect if to appreciate in value over time, and would make money on it in whilst you own it.
NFL makes something like $10B a year in revenue (which is shared between owners), and they are aiming to increase that to $25B in the coming years. They obviously expect the value of franchises to increase also over that time.
Pit very much does, I also just believe there are markets that interest the NFL far greater.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
I don't disagree.. but.
They don't have several Billion a) in cash and b) they didn't get it by spending money if they could avoid it.
The whole reason Public or Public Private stadiums are built is because they are expensive, good (some times) for everyone, and rich people don't spend money if they can avoid it. It is part of the reason why they are rich.
So if they can work out a way to get the various levels of Government to put down 3/4 of a billion or more, and split the rest between the owners and corporate "donations", they will...
Of course MLSE may be trying to squeeze some Pan am money just to save a little money, just because they figure they can, and they may have no true interest in any of this.
I only brought up the WC because the math seemed to work, and it only works if the ability exists and techniquely it does, which surprised me greatly.
I hear you. But, to address your initial 2 concerns:
a) I believe the Rogers family could come up with ~$300M in cash if they wanted to. Also, they can take a loan/finance some of it if they want. The Washington Redskins were purchased in 1999 for $800M by Daniel Snyder using a $340M loan and assuming $155M debt on the stadium. That adds up to about 62% of an NFL team and stadium brought with loan/debt. I really dont think liquidity is an issue for this amount for Rogers family. They dont need 'several billion' in cash, just a few hundred million, which is <4% of their net worth.
b) I agree. Rogers Centre is a good example of that! $25M for a multi-use retractable stadium in the middle of downtown. its mental the deal they got and it should never of happened. But it did. I think that wont be repeated any time soon. For the NFL Stadium we need to consider it will more likely be MLSE owning and operating that, not Rogers. I really think MLSE don't expect to get $750M from the government for a stadium which can be used for a month for a world cup. It really only makes sense if there is a full time tenant afterwards, such as an NFL team. And MLSE/Rogers would have to expect to look after the majority of funding for that. I think TL has indicated that with the BMO field deal, $30M from Government, and $90M from MLSE (25% government funding). I think MLSE would want to own an NFL stadium though, not the city, so they would expect to pay more than 75% themselves IMHO. Below is an estimate I previous provided on here of how much MLSE /Rogers would actually finance for a new NFL stadium themselves (approx $375M), and how much they would want the 3 levels of Government to fund in some way ($150m, or about 15%). If the World Cup bid was successful, maybe they might get $50-100M more from the Feds if they were very lucky.
Funds Who Notes $200M NFL loan G-4 deal: $50m loan, $50m gift, $100m paid back in 15 yrs from 34% of gate receipts $75M Seat licences $3k each avg x 25k $150M Govmnt funding Ontario and Toronto Govt funding/long term land lease/tax concessions $200M Naming rights (20 yrs x $10m a year), e.g. Rogers Field, Manulife Field, TD Field, Sun Life Field $375M MLSE/Rogers $1,000M Total stadium costs
Also, I wonder where World Cup revenues go from ticket sales from the event? e.g. Would some of that go to pay for the infrastructure investment and operational expenses for hosting a world cup? or does FIFA take it all to pay their own inflated salaries? E.g. The USA 2022 Bid said they would sell almost 5M tickets. Lets assume $250 avg ticket price = $1.25 Billion in ticket sales. Does some of that get used to pay for the ~$600M they said it would cost them to host the world cup in 2022? If so, and Canada won it, the CSA and the Feds could use some of that ticket money to cover the costs they may contribute to an NFL stadium development. ??
I agree that MLSE using a World Cup 2026 bid to get Government money towards a new NFL Stadium in Toronto absolutely makes sense, but I think it would be a more reasonable amount around $150M, not in $750M range.
Like I say I pulled the numbers out of the air. Though keep in mind 1 Billion seems to be the going rate for a 65,000 seater. For 75,000 to 80,000 seats expect 1.2-1.5 or so for anything more then a bare bones
It's all hypotheticals.
BMO is the big concern. I'm worried how it is going to play out, but the next few months are going to be interesting, and the true intentions may be more visible.
A factor that no one has mentioned yet is the impact of the Canadian dollar on any of these events. Specifically, the fact that Canadian bids for these big events start out behind the race.
Revenue sharing with US owners in the NFL means about a 10% discount given current exchange. For the sake of simplicity I will ignore the practice of buying dollars.
With the Euro, it's about a 35% discount.
Canada has obviously held big events before so it's not prohibitive. That said if comparing against a US venue or international venue for the World Cup, it isn't exactly a helping point.
my only thought would be one convertible to hosting the 2028 Olympics to then become the new home of the Blue Jays...I think that'd be plausible in a no NFL scenario
http://www.rogerstv.com/page.aspx?li...ntocitycouncil
City council live stream has resumed.
Edit: Not sure when BMO will be debated. Grimes is trying to figure out an approx. time because he wants CNE staff to attend.
Last edited by Haddy; 04-02-2014 at 08:57 AM.
Judging by how slow council goes - it'll be tomorrow morning
I can't see Blue Jays playing in such a stadium. Baseball are only building old style baseball stadiums these days. I think Blue Jays will eventually do that also. Maybe not anytime soon though. Rogers Centre must be getting to a point where they would need to spend a few hundred million on some repairs and updates in the next 5-10 yrs, I read that somewhere in the past year. They might instead consider building the Jays a new proper ballpark in the 'old style' like Target Field, etc. at which stage they might consider to do a complete overhall reno of Rogers Centre and upgrade it with a nice new retractable roof, get rid of the hotel, and increase capacity to 72,000 for NFL if they had a team? Not sure if that's possible, but the location of the stadium is enviable. That could be used for WC bid.
the numbers by proportion are insignificant still at this point.
And not saying dont support their soccer programs, we just dont need to give them a stadium.
They're supposed to be Building replacements for the Stadiums in Regina and Calgary in the near future, so I'm betting that they'll be built to at least hold 40K using Temporary seating. As for Halifax, they've shown repeatedly that they don't have the stomach to build a large stadium. I'm betting any future CFL team would play out of Moncton as it can pull in a much larger footprint of maritimers, so it would be the eastern choice as a WC venue.
The Regina stadium design will be released in about 6 weeks and it's supposed to resemble this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Arena_(Leipzig)
The Regina stadium design will be released in about 6 weeks and it's supposed to resemble this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Arena_(Leipzig)
Nice stadium
Anyways this thread is huge to much to read. All I can say is BMO field has nothing to do with the NFL. If Argos move in or not, BMO field will never be built for an NFL team. If there was a NFL team to ever come to Toronto they would need to build a stadium somewhere else, somewhere with a lot of room to build a 70,000+ stadium.
As for sharing BMO with the Argos, its interesting to see what happens. If they built an awesome BMO field because of the Argos moving in I would be all for it as long as the grass isn't ruined because of Argo games, and as long as there is NEVER, EVER POINTY BALL LINES ON THE SOCCER FIELD. I would prefer a 26,000- 27,000 seat stadium as 30,000 seems a bit much for TFC games, but hey if we could get at least 25k or over a game it wouldn't be bad.
As for NHL winter games, to me it seems really stupid to build a stadium built around hosting a winter hockey game outside. By the time this is all renovated would winter classic games still be a big hit? I am starting to think NHL might ruin the whole winter outdoor games. Its big and popular now, but the more and more outdoor games they keep hosting each year the more they make this thing look so gimicky. It might stay popular in Toronto, because they could always sell out Leaf games, and playing outdoors just offers more fans in the seats, but other markets this whole gimmick outdoor game may start to fade the way the NHL runs things. But either way it seems stupid to plan renovations around a 1 off outdoor game.
I think they are talking BMO now. I ust clicked the link and I heard a councilor mention the BMO Reno.
There's no question that the novelty of playing an outdoor game in a huge stadium will wear out quickly. Look at the vacuous expanse fans had to cope with in Edmonton's Commonwealth Stadium when the Oilers hosted theirs.
If BMO Field is smartly reconfigured, I can see a smaller venue offering better sightlines being a regular hit with fans. And the Leafs have so many fans who don't get to see the team play live. It will give them a great marketing tool to introduce Canadian newcomers to the game, especially kids. They'll have the CNE grounds turned into a hockey-themed Midway with several days of events and support games involving alumni, the Marlies and even OHL clubs. They're marketing their properties and the sport, keeping many people happy.
If the time ever comes when a larger venue is built, then they have the option of staging one there - like if the Habs or Wings came in, we'd see massive demand. You could play a week of sold out games. But having the BMO option gives them something to work with that will keep supply tight, demand high.
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 04-02-2014 at 01:32 PM.
I find this interesting.
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgen...em=2014.EX39.4
Hope this gets decided soon.The Federal and Provincial governments have expressed interest in matching the City's investment in order to provide a total public sector contribution of $30 million. Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. ("MLSEL") will provide the balance ($90 million) of the total estimated $120 million funding required for the project.
As I type this they're grinding their way through various mundane motions. They're at motion MM50.14. It might take an hour or more before they get to item MM50.30, put forward by councillor Mark Grimes regarding a World Cup bid. Don't think we'll hear anyone speak on the matter, just voting.
Details are here: http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgen...m=2014.MM50.30
Last edited by greatwhitenorf; 04-02-2014 at 01:56 PM.
Ugh i keep reading about this 'Great Lakes world cup'. So clueles....
Motion just carried.
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