Yes... They will finanlly get it
No.... They will screw this up royally
hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?
They're discriminating football fans, Og. They've journeyed to see games in Detroit, Cleveland(vs Pittsburgh) and Philly. The Bills have been largely unwatchable for some years now.
It would be great if the Bills could stay in Buffalo and Toronto acquire its own franchise. The rivalry would be terrific. Whether the Bills would still get the support of as many Canadian fans as they do now might be a concern. They're not a rich team and Buffalo's economy is hardly robust.
One could chalk this up to younger people being savvy consumers who weren't going to pay ridiculous prices to watch a crappy team that wasn't necessarily theirs (yet that was being promoted as such), when they know they could go an hour down the QEW to get a much more authentic NFL experience (read: tailgating) for much cheaper. Toronto still has many roadblocks to overcome as far as obtaining a NFL franchise is concerned. Lack of fan interest isn't one of them.Originally Posted by OgtheDim
That's not how the NFL looks at things. If a city doesn't rush in and support right away, the NFL considers them fools and turns away. They have been consistant in this mindset for over 20 years.
I would be surprised if NFL watchers would have Toronto in the top 3 of probable franchise taking/getting cities (although you can find anything on the internet if you search hard enough).
You're right about the aging demographic of the Argos fan base. Moving to a proper venue and keeping the price point in check could go a long way towards addressing that problem.
It all depends on ownership - that's the most important thing to the NFL, they're a pretty exclusive club. It's not like the NFL has an expansion committee out trying to drum up franchises in cities that don't have one.
The NFL has also been a little gunshy since the failure of NFL Europe - they were supposed to roll in and have franchises all over but it didn't work. So now they have a little success in London but they're sure being cautious about it.
So, likely whichever individual steps up to be the face of the Toronto franchise will have to show how he'll have success where the Bills-in-Toronto didn't. It's possible, but there will probably be a few NFL owners who will be hard to convince.
It's going to be fun to watch. Like watching Pierre Karl Peladeau try and get the Nordiques back to Quebec City....
The fact that the Marlies are only "surviving" (barely) is confirmation to me that the Argos wouldn't, given the depth of interest on hockey here.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Why? Wembley Stadium was sold out every time in London the NFL played... The Bills should have been able to sell out the Dome if the NFL is viable. The Counter to that of course is that Canadian NFL Fans can just drive to Buffalo or Detroit, London Fans can't, and that American Football has already failed in Europe once in the last 10 years, so the NFL game at Wembley shouldn't been seen as an indication of possible NFL success in Europe.
The truth is we won't know.
and BMO for the Argo's I think has less to do with the NFL and more to do with embarrassment, what does it say about Canada's largest city if it's CFL team can't survive and is homeless.
Honestly the biggest questions is what happens to the CFL training grounds.. where do the Argo's train. They can't train at BMO. They are being kicked out of Mississauga.
The do not touch TFC's training centre.
If some how the Argo get pushed into Kia training grounds... it would be just stupidity...
Varsity though would be ideal. There is no reason that a deal can't be worked out there.
I'm ok under the right conditions with the Argos playing at BMO so long as there are never Canadian Football Lines on the Pitch for a TFC game.
But if this reno some how means a sideway deal to put them at KTG then heads need to roll at City Council and MLSE...
Last edited by Kaz; 03-27-2014 at 01:57 PM.
This is why in the long term I could see Argos moving somewhere else (outside downtown core) where they will get more support. I don't see BMO field to be their solution to their problems. CFL isn't urban enough to get support in Toronto proper. This is reason why most of their fans come outside 416 region.
However, NFL needs CFL to fight against anti-trust laws if they face in the states. This is why NFL in 90's give money to CFL to keep them at float when looked like CFL was about to fold. So whoever wants to bring NFL team to Toronto needs to make sure Argos/CFL are taken care first to protect NFL and possibly Canadian government (who fund CFL every year with Grey Cup) interest.
TL or someone close to him said Argos will be training at TFC training grounds if they end up owning Argos.
There's no interest in hockey in Toronto, just the Leafs. That's why every OHL team failed in the city. And why Hockey Canada has long been reticent to bring major hockey events here (and even now that we're getting them, they're shared)
And my point with the different advertisers is simple. Great West Breweries, Lowes etc aren't going to be trying to advertise with the NFL. The CFL is reaching the audience they want to reach. McDonalds will still be a key sponsor of any NFL in Canada, which precludes the other fast food companies. One of the big banks will be a key sponsor, which still leaves 3-4 out there. Bell is still heavily invested in the CFL (obviously). From a revenue point, there's no reason for the CFL to lose a penny. Also the Argos in BMO drawing even 13-15 000 a game is more viable than currently in Skydome. Even if they don't catch on and only keep that hardcore 15 000 ticket base, they still aren't going anywhere. It's all profit for MLSE (if they don't buy the team) since it's extra revenue on dates the stadium would be dark otherwise. And the TV and sponsorship money plus the gate (Argos don't currently get much in the way of gate or concession money) will be more than enough to keep the Argos close enough to the black (if not in it) to keep going. I, personally, would have no problem getting Argos season tickets. And as much as I love NFL football... it's a TV product. Outside of big games I'd rather be sitting at home watching Red Zone or at a bar watching 4-5 games than in a stadium for 4 hours.
Agreed. I still think it's unlikely and the ownership situation here is incredibly iffy.
But I'd stand by the fact the way the bills in toronto was handled is not representative of what the NFL is capable of here. Good market research should show that and I assume the NFL is savvy enough to make educated decisions.
So from a quick good search, ticket prices in London ranged from £35-£100. The bills in Toronto were targeting an average price of $180 per ticket. So using todays conversion rate, our average ticket price was roughly equal to their maximum. Rogers eventually back-peddled and discounted their tickets down to an average of $99 but by that time it was already too late. Word was also heavily out that the atmosphere was several levels below a typical NFL game, tailgate was crap, and for the same price you could pay for transportation and tickets to buffalo and get something authentic.
Remember pre-TFC the national team attendance was crap, Lynx attendance was crap, and attendance at friendlies were spotty. People were all over the fact that "soccer wouldn't work here". So I'd stick by the opinion artificially plunking something down and having a few games is not representative of the actual product.
Werent the argos doing try-outs or something at downsview already this year?
There was CFL combine at U of T (Varsity stadium) recently for upcoming draft.
Didn't we talk about this back in December?
CFL Training camps open in late May. I'm guessing they are looking into other options. It was Tannenbaum who suggested to a pliant media person back in December about Downsview. He seems to be the one pushing for MLSE to take over the Argos.
Jacksonville, which is having trouble with attendance, has said they will be showing RedZone on their big screens in the stadium. Whoever in this thread said that the crowd at NFL games is like the studio audience of a TV show is right, it really is a TV product. The games could be played anywhere.
This is that whole is Toronto a trend following type fan base or one that simply loves the sport in question? If a sport is perceived as minor league, they simply don't get the massive following.
I don't see Toronto as a hockey town. It's a Leafs town. Marlies and OHL are not supported.
I don't see Toronto as a soccer town either. There is a small following for TFC and an even smaller following for the National Team. Yet throw United and Celtic into the Dome (or Beckham) and it's sold out. That's why MLS will struggle here for mainstream acceptance, IMO.
If the NFL comes, that same logic will see the CFL die. They might have a small following and maybe that's good enough for rental dates in a venue that is shared but they would find themselves deep in the sports pages when seasons overlap.
I'm fairly sure my very next sentence like grouping of words was that there are counter arguments, and finished it with perhapes London is no more a indicator then the Toronto Games were...
but... I don't see an 1.2 billion 80,000 seat stadium being built. I sure as hel don't see the Federal or Provincial gov't explaining why there is a deficit that year do hundreds of million of government money going in.
Well the Marlies for the last few years have been turning around. Averaging about 6,000 this season, 6,600 last season and 5,400 the season before...
They are also the only AHL team that has a NHL team to compete against. It does highlight the issue though, and shows that it is possible.
If the Argo's play at BMO, and a NFL team is in Woodbine, or North York, or Markham. The Argo's can be positioned at Canadian Football for the several Million people that live within 10 km of easy travel. It is just a matter of marketing.
And improved Go service from Hamilton and Niagara (ie a direct trains) it could be totally viable, if they keep tickets reasonable.
I'd say Toronto is a 'sports' town and could support any major sports franchise. The problem is the MLS and CFL are not the top leagues in their sport. If we had the quality of players that MAN U/Juventus/Barca had....then i'm pretty confident we'd sell out a 50,000 seat stadium every week.
Can they release some more drawings so we can argue over something else pls!
We repeat ourselves hoarse in every other thread. What makes this one special?
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Moderator
Not to the tune of 84 pages we don't, haha.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
I guess not.
Still nowhere close to that old Dero thread though. I thought that was the death rattle of the franchise at the time.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Moderator
Yeah, I'd bet that's still the longest thread on the entire forum, despite being the same handful of arguments repeated for page after agonizing page.
That wasn't quite "hitting bottom" for the supporters yet, but it was close. I think Winter being sacked after that MLS record start, and Mariner taking over, was the bottom.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
We do deserve butter.
Yes
...bloody margarine...
...bloody cholesterol....
Bring back the all encompassing DeRo thread!
The ultimate all encompassing mega thread would involve DeRo writing invisible cheques for the transformed BMO Field designed by the misunderstood Winter and Mo's agent friend being made the sole supplier of athletes players to all teams involved. However after a week it might take a turn and focus instead on reports of NFL teams coming across the lake in boats, the continued rise of Max Urutti, the need for either Tim L or Tim B to change first names and rollerblades.
Possibly.
The thing is though, these franchises can be very good little businesses without stretching to the limits. This used to be a frustration for me with TFC ticket prices before the roll back. TFC was profitable at year 1 prices. The stadium was full. Results on the pitch aside, it was a money maker.
Then they got greedy and tried to make it into something it isn't.
I'm all for striving for better but if you are always reaching for the next level you don't always appreciate the level you are on.
Maybe MLS will always be 2nd rate but that's ok. Everyone here enjoys it regardless. It provides decent work opportunities for hundreds of players and others associated with the teams, stadiums and league. It may not ever sell out 30 or 40 or 50k. So what?
I don't see Toronto's support for top flight leagues to be an issue. I've had more fun at TFC games, Canadian National Team games, even Toronto Rock games than I have had at Leafs' games. Take the leagues for what they are.
That's probably the most concerning thing for me with this expansion stuff. Trying to convince us that TFC is bigger than it is in order to achieve a bigger stadium for uses other than TFC (Outdoor hockey and/or Grey Cups). I foresee an empty feeling stadium, financed on the backs of fans, that never quite feels like home.
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