Probably one question - "How much $ do I get?"Originally Posted by Huyton
Yes... They will finanlly get it
No.... They will screw this up royally
hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?
Probably one question - "How much $ do I get?"
I agree with all of this, though I'd classify myself as more 'cautiously optimistic' than 'couldn't be more excited'. I trust Tim's ambition and integrity, but it's still Rogers and Bell we're talking about.
How is that any different that the Blue Jays selling TV rights to Rogers?
The biggest difference is that the NFL is the most revenue-sharing league when it comes to TV money. And also, the NFL doesn't have any teams owned by media companies. But sure, I don't know if it matters to the other NFL owners or not.
How exactly does "saving the Argos" make sense as part of a plan to bring the NFL to Toronto?
Does somebody really think there will be two football teams here?
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
The NFL will never come here at the expense of the Toronto Argonauts. I truly believe that and having an understanding of the NFL/CFL relationship, the league will not want to have the perception that they were the reason for the demise of the CFL in this city. They will not want to be anywhere near such a claim.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
But how does bringing the NFL to Toronto not kill the Argos?
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
That is the million dollar question, one I am not really sure anyone can answer at this point. People will have opinions on both sides of the question, it certainly will spark a lot of discussion.
On a side note I always though that a way to spin it if the NFL were to come here would be to move the Argonauts up to the NFL not unlike the way the Whitecaps, Timbers and Sounders did. In the end the Argos brand would stay alive even if the viability of two pro football teams in the Toronto market was not there.
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
basically right..............it's all about advertising and TV rights . AND sharing of those TV revenues . Toronto brings zilch of TV revenues to the NFL big bots. So if the team would always be a taker / receiver of revenue $$. Why would any team want TO to join if they would never really contribute to the revenue . (our tv $$'s is zilch compared to Yankee TV $$'s. Toronto has nothing to offer the money teams in the NFl and money talks . They are not about to be in a welfare state of mind. Toronto will never have a NFL team and it stays near Buffalo but moves to a new modern stadium after 2019...IMHO.
I'd support the Bills in Buffalo but never in Toronto , wrong environment .
Last edited by jazzy; 03-26-2014 at 07:38 PM.
ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana
My thoughts exactly - you bring up the Argo name, the history etc. Double Blue, Boatmen, Pull Together etc are all excellent brands and something that some of us piss on too easily around here.
I seriously doubt the CFL would allow that to happen. Wouldn't they move quickly to protect their own brand and history?
TORONTO FC, 2017 MLS CHAMPIONS!!! (Still the greatest in league history!)
Fan bases are totally different, advertising market is totally different. There's very little crossover.
edit: though I would like to see any NFL team in Toronto called the Toronto Argo's. If not outright Argonauts. If roughly the same people own both, they couldn't make it happen?
I can actually see the Argos selling out a renovated BMO but if they can't and the NFL came to town I could easily see a return of the ransom pack MLSE employed before with TFC/Marlies tying together NFL and Argos tickets.
I really do hope the Bills stay in Buffalo though, one of the things I like about Ralph Wilson is the way he stuck it to Rogers with the one sided Bills in Toronto deal. The money bought Buffalo some time to get some stadium plans through and badly exposed Rogers as a potential owner. I'd smile if it ends up that Rogers own money and hubris save the Buffalo Bills.
Right now they are different as they aren't really operating in the same space. If the NFL moves in it's going to have every sports team in the GTA taking inventory because it will have a big impact on the market. Minimum 60k per game target attendance and that's going to hit all sorts of demographics, including those the CFL goes after.
I can't see this being a good thing for the Argos on any level.
Most of the Argos current fanbase exist on the fringes of the GTA (though moving to BMO could attract the downtown crowd again). And the companies that advertise with the CFL are targeting Western and Rural Canada, not the GTA. If the NFL moved to Toronto and took all the local football advertizing... it wouldn't really matter too much. Look at the main advertisers http://www.trojan360.com/cfl-rebuild...hip-portfolio/
(as well as the traditionals like Tim Hortons who aren't going anywhere)
The fact is the companies who would advertise with a Toronto NFL team are already paying to advertise with the NFL in Canada. It will just cost them more if they're sponsoring a team instead of a broadcast on CTV/TSN
edit: better CFL sponsors list from last season http://mediaincanada.com/2013/07/04/...ponsor-lineup/
edit 2: list of NFL on CTV sponsors from last playoffs/super bowl
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...242238691.html
Labatt Breweries of Canada returns as presenting sponsor of the SUPER BOWL on CTV, with Ford of Canada, McDonalds Restaurants of Canada, and Nissan Canada all returning as quarter sponsors.
Key advertisers for CTV's SUPER BOWL XLVIII coverage also include Bell, Bank of Montreal, Disney, H&R Block, H&M, Kia, Mazda, Petro Canada brand, SunCor, Telus, and Wonderful Pistachios,among others.
there's no crossover in advertizing at all
Last edited by Waggy; 03-26-2014 at 11:48 PM.
How would there not be Canadian TV money to be made for the NFL? At the moment, Buffalo has its TV region/market in north-western NY state... With a move to Toronto, their TV region would expand to cover basically all of Canada... It would be 'Canada's Team'. 34M people vs the approx 3-4M in buffalo's current TV market. Yes the NFL nake money on Canadian TV rights now, but they would surely increase with a team based in Canada.basically right..............it's all about advertising and TV rights . AND sharing of those TV revenues . Toronto brings zilch of TV revenues to the NFL big bots. So if the team would always be a taker / receiver of revenue $$. Why would any team want TO to join if they would never really contribute to the revenue . (our tv $$'s is zilch compared to Yankee TV $$'s. Toronto has nothing to offer the money teams in the NFl and money talks . They are not about to be in a welfare state of mind. Toronto will never have a NFL team and it stays near Buffalo but moves to a new modern stadium after 2019...IMHO.
I'd support the Bills in Buffalo but never in Toronto , wrong environment .
I think there has to be more money to be made in a TV deal with a team in the Toronto/Canada TV market then in Buffalo tv market.
Also, there is talk about LA being a better option to move the Bills to over Toronto... The threat of LA is currently being used to get new stadium deals for Oakland, San Diego, and St Louis. Until those 3 teams get a new stadium deal done, I don't see the Bills going to LA. And I don't see them having 2 LA teams + San Diego (all basically in the same TV market), so I reckon effectively that means Oakland & St Louis both need new stadium deals before Bills would move to LA. I see Oakland moving to LA personally & sharing that market with the Chargers.
London UK is earmarked for Jaguars, but I don't see that happening on a permanent basis for a while.
That leaves Bills to go to Toronto. I don't see them staying in Buffalo after 2020. The other owners won't agree to it as it's less $$ for them, a poor market there, no one to sell corporate suites to, etc.
If you are looking for one sponsor doing both I think that's pretty narrow, and it might also be forbidden under terms of contract. What I see is that McDonald's got the Superbowl while Wendy's did CFL Friday nights. Labatt sponsored the Superbowl and while Molson Canada pulled out of CFL sponsorship last year. Also, Scotiabank pulled out of the CFL last year while BMO sponsored the Superbowl. I can't see the link you've posted but I'm sure of competitors taking a stake in different advertising spaces goes on.
NFL feeds off TV revenue and a major push on Canadian television is a necessary prerequisite of any expansion here. Game day attendance is not enough.
Not good for the CFL, but it's worse for the Argos because it's smack in the middle of their market.
Last edited by ag futbol; 03-27-2014 at 12:54 AM.
Jeez, guys, I'm really not interested enough to have a dustup about this, but how on earth could a CFL team in Toronto survive with an NFL team in Toronto? There is simply no way. This cannot be a serious subject of debate.
Somebody has to come up with a real suggestion as to how the CFL survives without Toronto in it, or why that would work for Bell/TSN even if the CFL could survive (both the CFL and NFL are already valuable TV properties, so you need a case as to how the increase in NFL TV revenues would increase by some gigantic amount, and would overwhelm the inevitable decline in CFL numbers). Until then I don't see why the NFL and MLSE are worth talking about in the same conversation (and that's before dealing with the credibility of the idea that Rogers and/or Tanenbaum would do this).
The only thing that makes sense: I could maybe understand the business case that MLSE are maybe acquiring the Argo brand because an NFL team should be the Argos (ie should have the name and logo) but that would just be more fuel for the "NFL can't be seen killing the CFL" problem.
My best guess: this NFL chatter has all been posturing to get the $30M (some sort of "be glad we're not asking for $300M for an NFL stadium" move)
Last edited by ensco; 03-27-2014 at 06:24 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
How would there not be Canadian TV money to be made for the NFL? At the moment, Buffalo has its TV region/market in north-western NY state... With a move to Toronto, their TV region would expand to cover basically all of Canada... It would be 'Canada's Team'. 34M people vs the approx 3-4M in buffalo's current TV market. Yes the NFL nake money on Canadian TV rights now, but they would surely increase with a team based in Canada.
I think there has to be more money to be made in a TV deal with a team in the Toronto/Canada TV market then in Buffalo tv market.
THe US tv networks have no interest in a Canadian NFL team. It is not a comparison between the Western New York region and the Ontario region. The US networks may have regional games, but their ads are national and are based on national ratings.
Under the present system the NFL sells the Canadian broadcasting rights (estimates between 10-15 million per season) and that deal is not based on tv ratings. Of course the NFL will keep an eye on ratings so that they know what to charge the next time the broadcasting contract comes up for renewal.
You must have noticed that Canadian broadcasts of NFL games have Canadian ads inserted. Think about it. You brew Budweiser (shame on you) and you are lining up to pay the astronomical price to have your US ads shown on the US broadcast of the Super Bowl. Do you think you would ever mention that you were willing to spend more for your ad placement if you could be assured that it reaches the Flin Flon, Manitoba market? No matter what Canadian tv ratings boost a Toronto NFL team made, the NFL might care a little but the US networks would not. In 2011 the NFL signed nine year contracts with NBC, CBS and Fox where each of those networks pay more than a billion dollars per year. I have yet to look up the ABC/ESPN contract and now the Thursday night games are going to be a partnership between NFL network and CBS. As they say, do the math. Somebody giving your more than a billion bucks a year says "Roger, no Toronto until we have five teams in LA" and CTV is bouncing up and down saying "Give us our own team and we will double, heck triple our ten million a year".
This is a fun game... When Rogers bought all the NHL rights Bell upped its NFL rights. So, the question is, would TV ratings for the NFL go up in Canada if there was a team in Toronto? Would they go up enough to cover the two billion dollars it would cost to buy a team and build a stadium?
And it's not like Bell (through MLSE) can give itself a break on the TV rights because those are shared by the other NFL owners who will want full value for the contract.
So is this a deal for the gate receipts from eight home games a year?
NFL vs CFL
is Leafs vs Marlies. Marlies survive
Honestly though... the only real way the Argos survive is if the Argo are the NFL team.
Granted the Bills are in Buffalo likely for 10 years. Lets see how things play out..
of course the Argos at BMO gives them a good chance at survival.. because the only place a NFL stadium goes in Toronto is Downsview otherwise you in one of the other cities of the GTA. Which may be the saving grace for the Argos in the CFL. It is a closer ticket for the Downtown folk, so they don't have to lower themselves with travelling outside the 400 fence (401,427, QEW and DVP)
Last edited by Kaz; 03-27-2014 at 09:50 AM.
The Argos still have a hardcore fan base, 100 years of history, and the price point would be far more affordable than the NFL. The schedules are also a few months apart. Furthermore, the CFL brand of football is different. It's more of a passing game with more offense generated. It's really comparing apples and oranges.
If Toronto had a NFL team, I think the Argos could still consistently draw 20,000-25,000 in a proper venue. Most hardcore NFL fans in this city don't take the CFL seriously anyway, so I don't think a NFL team would cut into the Argos fan base.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 03-27-2014 at 12:30 PM.
CFL is doomed in toronto anyway.......no reason to stonewall NFL because of it. The city will benefit from whichever market prospers. right now CFL is not Prospering.
Just heard Bills are in Rich Stadium till 2020. Can they just break the lease and pay it out?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Precisely!
And succinctly summed up afterward.
The Argos become a loss leader for MLSE, although in a different manner than the Marlies. The Leafs principally use the Marlies like a living laboratory.
They can enjoy the nearby presence of a farm team, training under the supervision of the parent club's coaches. They also use them as a marketing tool, offering free or low-cost tickets for fans to come and experience hockey who might otherwise be unable to afford or access Leafs tickets. A lot of grass-roots marketing is done in a bid to create a new generation of hockey fans from the immigrants of cultures unfamiliar with hockey.
The Argos would merely be kept financially afloat to provide revenue for BMO Field expenses and to assuage the NFL. MLSE would never stand to make a lot of money from the Argos, nor will they lose a great deal. But the profits from a NFL franchise would more than justify the trouble and expense.
Yes, but it's a lot of money. Well, around $400 million. And the starting price for the Bills is rumoured at $800 million but that's kind of like the list price of a house expecting a bidding war in Toronto.
This is why people have estimated the cost of relocating the Bills and building them a new stadium at around $2.5 billion.
Kind of makes the $30 million that MLSE just asked three levels of government for pretty small, doesn't it?
The big worry is that the Argos fan base is an aging one. We have our university-aged kids friends pile in here and not one of them could name five Argos. They'd struggle to name five CFL franchises. But they all watched the NFL combines and can talk in deep detail about roster depth players and upcoming draft pick possibilities.
When they're not talking football, it's either soccer(big time), hockey(big time) or, less passionately, basketball. Didn't watch a second of the 100th Grey Cup on their doorstep. CFL is a non-entity for a big chunk of this city's younger sports fans.
Those younger people didn't go to the Dome to watch the Bills in enough numbers for the NFL`to be considering Toronto as a viable place for a team.
This. I don't know of a single die-hard Argos fan under the age of 40. Now, if they moved to BMO, would the downtown condo-dwelling demographic embrace them the way they did with TFC in the early years? This remains to be seen - it worked with the Alouettes. I don't know whether the Argos would have that appeal with the younger set.
Hey, when you run a third rate operation, you get third rate results. No need to re-hash this argument over-and-over but calling that stretch of games representative of the NFL's potential in Toronto is roughly equivalent to looking at TFC under Anselmi and saying "it's all downhill from here".
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