View Poll Results: If seating expansion occurs... will we get a supporter/controlled section?

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  • Yes... They will finanlly get it

    82 22.10%
  • No.... They will screw this up royally

    213 57.41%
  • hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?

    76 20.49%
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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inswingingwingman View Post
    As I taught Building and Fire Code, and was part of the enforcment process for over 10 years as an Assistant to the Fire Marshal I can clarify some things.

    1. The Fire Code is a maintenance document. For existing buildings. It provided for some retrofit of buildings in Section 9, however it has squat to do with an expansion.

    2. The building code calls bmo an open air facility, unless you start enclosing spaces. Putting on a roof would change the classification from A Division 4 to 3. A beer garden, unless it has a permanent roof, walls etc. is A Division 2 and thus the fire separation requirements and fire protection and egress becomes an issue. Also I don't remember exactly when they built the original structure but the insanity that doubled the water closet requirements for assembly occupancies (Ie the women got double the toilets in a recent building code change which has stopped lots of restaurants from updating or expanding), without giving any leeway to the building divisions.

    So an open air non combustible structure has some lenient regulations. There are still restrictions of travel distances, and the number of fixed seats before you hit an aisle. I've been retired for quite a while but I think I remember the Fire Code (included old arenas and baseball stadiums) that you could not pass more than 15 seats to get to an aisle. Then because the stairs have to handle who's coming down you need 9mm of clear stairs per person. Then when you get to grade or level space you need 6mm per person.

    The problem with adding on the top another deck that covers the lower portion of a structure gets you into an interpretation problem. If the lower deck is no longer open air you have to meet certain requirements. And that deck above needs fire protection from below.

    If there is a rose in the process, it is that the code is no longer written in stone. Due to the objective based code system now in place an engineer can make something that does not conform to the existing code, but meets the objective in a broad sense. Most of the guys I worked with and still have breakfast with once a week, 2 engineers mostly retired, and a guy with a large construcion company all agree, most don't want to put a stamp on a plan that makes them vulnerable.

    The private boxes are a sticky wicket. Now you have fire separation requirments, perhaps sprinklers, egress issues, handicapped access issues, elevators for assembly occupancies washrooms on that level...YIKES.

    Not a lot of easy solutions. I suspect you are going to see the thing infilled, meaning they will put seats in corners. I do not know how much higher you can go without making aisles wider, nor am I really an expert on how you add the washroom facilities, or even calculate that.

    The whole thing will take some fancy footwork..........

    Yikes! Good recap, I definitely wasn't going to go into that much detail at 8am this morning.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by billyfly View Post
    I just want my Coat of Arms
    Got a picture of it??

    You could always submit a picture of the coat of arms and a synopsis of your idea to BMO field management.

    Who knows maybe someone in the local historical society could back up your idea?

    I personally like it. Anything that can "brand" the stadium as unique is good in my opinion.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark in Ottawa View Post
    Got a picture of it??

    You could always submit a picture of the coat of arms and a synopsis of your idea to BMO field management.

    Who knows maybe someone in the local historical society could back up your idea?

    I personally like it. Anything that can "brand" the stadium as unique is good in my opinion.
    No. No picture. I guess I should call MLSE.

  4. #124
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    I cleaned up the off-topic part of the discussion.

    If there are any questions about why, PM me.

    Thanks.
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

  5. #125
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    we should expand and make BMO 65,000 capacity like OLD TRAFFORD!~

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsintoronto View Post
    ok so now I've never thought of it before in enough depth to comment intelligently so take these as someone who is not an expert in fire code:

    ACC has really cool fire safety systems. I've been in there when they've been testing AND the building has many many stairwells and exits and each has air handling systems to a wall of fresh air to create walls that fire cannot go through and people cannot. The air handling and water handling systems are something you can't replicate in an outdoor facility.

    but thats just a guess.
    Well that just makes sense.

    Thanks!

  7. #127
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    so the halftime CRUSH we have on the concourses is "legal"?
    hate to see a fire start right then. I'd be trampled.

  8. #128
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    Trampled? Actually research proves that 99% of the time emergencies are not an occasion for panic. In our culture we do the fire drills at school and people just act properly. That's the reason for them. I did help a PHd scientist do a study on a very large building owned by the federal gov't. They put in cameras, ran several fire alarms, then put some smoke into the place and pulled the alarm. We ran trucks from a block away, blew some sirens, and they filmed what went on. Only difference was with the false alarms people just sort of talked on the phone before the floor marshal's sent them out. On the smell of smoke they just left nice and orderly.


    As stated earlier, having an open air, no roof facility without boxes makes the structure not too expensive to build. Going higher means special ramps wider aisles, etc, all at greater cost..

    Do not think the whole thing is easy to happen, it might be a tough deal due to costs.

  9. #129
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    Oh and by the way, the scientist was a she, and french canadian and maybe the hottest Professor I ever met.

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    Wow that sounds like an interesting report...makes me want to read it, what was the proffessors name?

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inswingingwingman View Post
    Trampled? Actually research proves that 99% of the time emergencies are not an occasion for panic. .
    I've already been trampled on the concourse at BMO during halftime, No need for a study.

    I'm just trying to understand all this fire code stuff and the point of wider aisles when BMO Field is packed to the gills already, even though apparently it meets all the code.
    I mean, I try to go to the washroom at halftime. The washroom is directly across from my aisle... and I can barely get across (you gotta move north south, with the crowd, to get anywhere).
    I already find BMO scary at times for crowds.
    Last edited by rocker; 03-26-2009 at 11:12 PM.

  12. #132
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    Agreed. Paul, is there anything that can be done to fix the crowd problems? Surely you can hire somebody to at least study it.

    Enough with this depressing shit about our stadium....

    Any firm details on design stuff for the expansion?

  13. #133
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    The difference is during half time people are milling not leaving. So the 'concorse' was not designed so that everyone can get out of their seats and just stand there.

    Many assembly buildings suffer a similar fate, from Stratford's festival building to the ACC, where half time is a bit of a nightmare.

    When you think about the logistics of expansion, you can't just throw 10 rows of seats around the stadium and use existing exits, it won't work unless the original design had that fact built in.

    http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fr/frhb/index_e.html

  14. #134
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    I hate electronic ad boards, distracts from the game.

    I don't care if it's being done in many stadiums in Europe, we're much better off without it.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    I've already been trampled on the concourse at BMO during halftime, No need for a study.
    Incorrect.

    to inflict injury or destruction especially contemptuously or ruthlessly —usually used with on, over, or upon


    You've been stuck in a crowded area, maybe bumped shoulders at most. You have not been 'trampled' on the concourse. It's a fucking sporting event, the concourses get busy because people are all trying to access the same areas. The only difference is, with soccer, not many people leave the game before half time to get food/drinks like other sports so that makes it that much more crowded.

    Fire code and the OBC relate to means of egress, which is getting people OUT of the building. I guarantee the concourse would not fill up like that if the stadium was evacuated during the run of play.

  16. #136
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    Mayor Miller has publicly stated on more than one occasion that the stadium will soon expand, most likely by adding more seats above the east side. He's mentioned that the capacity would grow by at least 5,000 in this scenario. But he doesn't want to lose the skyline view from his upper deck seats either.

    What hasn't been mentioned is that there's rooom and structural support in place to add two more sections to each end of the west side's upper deck, above the existing private suites. Guessing that would add 4,000 and be the least troublesome option in the short term.

    Adding 15 rows above the current east side - with private boxes -as per the photoshopped illustration earlier in this thread, would likely require the current east side to be taken down, the perimeter brick wall to be removed and probably a complete rebuild to mirror the west side, with a lot more concrete structure needed.

    And who at MLSE would benefit from that deal? Concrete king Larry Tanenbaum.

    For those of you griping about little issues with BMO, obviously you're not old enough to recall the travesty that was CNE Stadium which once sat on the same site. Even dear old Varsity Stadium, which had great sightlines down the sides, had an awful curved end zone behind the running track and left fans seated well away from the action. This has been a wonderful set up to watch pro soccer be reborn in Toronto.

    Obviously the stadium needs to expand. If the east side was built to mirror an expanded west side and the south end double decked, you'd have a superb 30 to 35,000 seat stadium in a great location. You justify the costs by adding grass and host the bulk of our national teams' games plus schedule in more interenational friendlies, which don't necessarily have to be played against TFC. We should be part of future events like this summer's tournament involving the Milan clubs and Chelsea.

    Assume, also, that as TFC gets better as a club, we make the playoffs and advance regularly into CONCACAF Champions League play.

    Not hard to envision years where well over 30 important, big-crowd-drawing soccer games are played at BMO Field. And we'll never, ever require the services of a CFL team to help defray the costs.

    And if MLS continues to grow successfuly, Mayor Miller will not have much of a selling job to do with city council.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatwhitenorf View Post
    What hasn't been mentioned is that there's rooom and structural support in place to add two more sections to each end of the west side's upper deck, above the existing private suites. Guessing that would add 4,000 and be the least troublesome option in the short term.
    You are right about that being room for adding seats but it only adds about 1,500 (give or take) - not 4,000.

  18. #138
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    I don't see any scenario where the city antes up one penny. the most I'd expect from the city (this isn't me taking a shot...just being realistic) would be support, and even that is not a given. Civic politics is a strange beast.

  19. #139
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    Default West Side Expansion

    Quote Originally Posted by greatwhitenorf View Post

    What hasn't been mentioned is that there's rooom and structural support in place to add two more sections to each end of the west side's upper deck, above the existing private suites. Guessing that would add 4,000 and be the least troublesome option in the short term.

    I never realized, until seeing this post, and looking at some photos... that there is indeed room for quite a bit of expansion on the West Side!

    Here is the Stadium as we know it today...


    Here is what it might look like with "End caps"...



    From my calculations... I think this would add about 2500 - 3000 (affordable tickets!)

    Plus this would allow for further expansion of the supporters zone in the SW corner!

    This might in fact be the least costly addition of all. Of course there is no reason why the 8000 expansion would have to occur all at once. I think based on how fast they built this stadium... this could easily be done over the Winter.

    Thoughts on West Side Expansion?

  20. #140
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    ^ I like it looks good also on the south side that opens up the possiblitiy of the added seats connecting to the added deck on the south side.

  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlsintoronto View Post
    I don't see any scenario where the city antes up one penny. the most I'd expect from the city (this isn't me taking a shot...just being realistic) would be support, and even that is not a given. Civic politics is a strange beast.

    and next year is an election year which makes things even more unpredictable

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-town View Post



    From my calculations... I think this would add about 2500 - 3000 (affordable tickets!)

    Plus this would allow for further expansion of the supporters zone in the SW corner!

    This might in fact be the least costly addition of all. Of course there is no reason why the 8000 expansion would have to occur all at once. I think based on how fast they built this stadium... this could easily be done over the Winter.

    Thoughts on West Side Expansion?


    I love it!!!!!!
    even like that the field looks more intimate, and closed

    ( I never realised all the holes in BMO field )

    guess we gotta bring out the "WE DESERVE BETTER" sign LOL!

  23. #143
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    Does anyone have a good pic of the gap between the south end and the east stands? To me that is 100% the easiest (I'm not considering CFL field considerations) place to put seats.

  24. #144
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    The London Knights used to be the laughing stock of the OHL. They got a fancy new arena, top notch faciltiy and went from obscure to Memorial Cup champions.

    In sports some of the solutions are simple. As a firefighter I had a part time job, but unlike others doing roofing or cement work I was running an office that handled the sales analysis using software I wrote. Company started with one facility and now boasts almost 200. I left that in '96 because my doctor said just do one job and I kept the one with the pension, but I sold my wife (she still lives with me) along with my shares.

    But you need fans, marketing, and how to exceed the expectations of the people who buy your product. If you take the current income based on stadium revenues and realize you can pump that number up while keeping most of your fixed costs down, then it makes sense to expand.

    All that said, the Knights didn't have a hockey specific stadium. I've seen Broadway shows, Diana Krall, Rod Stewart, Great Big Sea and many others come to the arena/entertainment facility.

    (Ducks)

    I do think grass is a good idea for the long haul, but who knew day 1 where this might go?

    And as to road trips, a bus costs $1000 aprox per day for 50 people (maybe 58). So 20 bucks gets you a bus to Columbus, you might have to kick in a bit more for a second driver and lose a seat. Ticket to the game added in. Just sayin'.....

    I think given the sales the stadium will expand, and I think the photoshop architects are great.. Could you put me in a seat with sun, and while you're at it add a condo for me within walking distance ...LOL

  25. #145
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    Am I the only person that still has major reservations about expansion? It's the beginning of the season, we're 1-0, everyone's stoked, and so am I. BUT....
    Do we forget all the rainy weekday games with 1000 or so empty seats in them?
    Do we forget the fact that most people are bleeding money right now?
    In our excitement, do we think that success on the field is a foregone conclusion this year, and if it isn't, do we think that some fans will disappear after 3 bad years on the pitch?

    I'm not saying any of these things are a given, but I think that a bit of caution must be thrown in to this discussion during the rosiest time of the year!

  26. #146
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    grass first, then expansion

    Grass could be here sooner than we think

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    Grass first, then Roof. a Roof would make our stadium look bigger, plus would make our fans seem Sooooooooo much more louder

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneLoveOneEric View Post
    Am I the only person that still has major reservations about expansion? It's the beginning of the season, we're 1-0, everyone's stoked, and so am I. BUT....
    Do we forget all the rainy weekday games with 1000 or so empty seats in them?
    Do we forget the fact that most people are bleeding money right now?
    In our excitement, do we think that success on the field is a foregone conclusion this year, and if it isn't, do we think that some fans will disappear after 3 bad years on the pitch?

    I'm not saying any of these things are a given, but I think that a bit of caution must be thrown in to this discussion during the rosiest time of the year!
    Very good points in here.

    And I am with Gabriel, get the grass in here first (probably the less expensive of the options).
    Proud Supporter of: FC Bayern München, AIK Solna, Toronto FC, Nottingham Forest FC

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    No one is really saying "massive" expansion. C-Town added a bunch of seats but remember that MLSE said "up to 8,000 seats without a complete rebuild". This could mean in adding seats in sections in stages as the "need" dictates.


    I like the idea of more "filler" expansion. Some nice finishing touches here and there to make it look less like a tin can.

  30. #150
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    they also should build some type of wall to, the big black fence makes it even worse

 

 

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