Yes... They will finanlly get it
No.... They will screw this up royally
hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?
Yeah, I agree this whole thing is stupid, but I think MLSE desperately want to host winter classic for Leafs that they're willing to take a risk on TFC to make things happen. Also, the whole Toronto NFL thing could be another factor (Obviously MLSE wouldn't directly own the team, but they can play a role in other ways).Originally Posted by Beach_Red
I didn't say they want to host it every year. There will be a certain amount of outdoor games every year and the Leafs won't be able to host one every year.
And if they are just going to be able to switch regular home games from ACC to BMO, why hasn't Chicago, Detroit, Boston, Philly, Pittsburgh, NYR, Washington done it already?
Well those markets can't consistently support their hockey teams like Toronto. That's why those markets can't do it or have potential to do it every year like Leafs.
Agreed it makes a lot of sense. MLS worries me with who they are accepting into the ownership club, it's just as bad as the NHL.
So your saying that Chicago, who have had 200+ consecutive sellouts and 11,000 on their season ticket waitlist, couldn't sustain a game or 2 every year in Wrigley Field?
Well they're doing well because they're winning games now. If you look before they started to win, Hawks were in decline and had lost interest in their market.
Toronto Maple Leafs proven win or lose, they still get support in their market.
Well then while they are still good and in demand, why havent they done it already? I mean it's not like they have to wait for a venue , there are 3 already waiting in the city.
Why haven't they taken advantage of it? Why hasn't Boston? Why didn't Minnestoa during their 400 game sell out streak from 2002-2009?
Maybe because the NHL won't let them and it's not as simple as saying "we have a venue for outdoor game, we are going to host multiple ones a year. kthnxbye"
Just because MLSE will have access to a venue that they can host outdoor games does not equal them being able to host multiple ones every year.
That's all I'm saying. There are far more factors at work here then Tim L calling Bettman and woosh the Leafs can host as many outdoor games as they want.
And at any price........
If those teams attempted to do that every year, then your argument is valid. But however, Maple Leaf is different case because market is strong enough to do it every year if they wanted to. NHL isn't going to stop Maple Leafs and hold them back if Maple Leafs want to make it annually thing. NHL and NBC are being conservative and don't want to kill outdoor games so I can see them limited other teams to make it special event in USA, but Toronto is completely different market and don't have to care about NBC and their views.
Without getting into a nuanced "why Seattle is different" conversation .... I don't think Toronto can support 40K for TFC on a consistent basis unless MLS changes (ie improves) a lot.
The league is not close to there, for this market.
Today's discussion is blowing the doors off in terms of quality btw. Many many interesting things being said. Too many to respond to!
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Reason why NHL wouldn't stop Maple Leafs if they wanted to do winter classic game every year. There's a lot of money to make off from Leafs winter classic in Toronto.
You are making a HUGE assumption. TFC already jacked the price of North End seats by 19% over the last two years and that was prior to this year with attendance on the decline.
If TFC becomes corporately fashionable, then who do you think they are going to approach with their tickets? Corporations pay a lot more for seats than you or I… well you now as I got off that train as it didn't make economic sense.
As for the 30k number, I appreciate that you are dreamer. So, I'll let you dream.
I simply don't see it as a sustainable number. Toronto, though maybe not LA, also doesn't support "minor league" clubs. Hockey town or Leafs town is the old debate. If hockey town, the Marlies would sell out and OHL teams would do well. They don't.
MLS is viewed by many as a lower league relative to the EPL. Jermain Defoe isn't going to change that. If Toronto supported "soccer" in general, the National Team wouldn't draw 2-3x less than a friendly between United and Celtic.
Last edited by Pookie; 03-25-2014 at 01:17 PM.
I agree, 40,000 is out of the question on a regular basis. However, 30,000 is an attainable goal if this team is consistently competitive and the pricing structure throughout the stadium is reasonable. The additional upper bowl seating that is planned for BMO Field should theoretically be less expensive than most sections of the existing lower levels, so affordability and value shouldn't be a concern.
The one major nuance to that though is that many that support the Leafs through season tickets actually have purchased Personal Seat Licenses. If they fail to renew their season seats, they lose the license. These licenses aren't cheap either, 5 to 6 figures.
Folks that have season seats keep them, largely because they are "locked in." Win or lose.
The NHL is made up of 30 teams. 30 representives on the board of governers. 30 different owners. The vast majority are rich, successful and have the egos to match.
I'm highly highly skeptical that MLSE will be able to make that fly with them.
I'm not a conspiracy kind of guy like some on the boards, but this whole push for stadium expansion is for the Winter Classic.
TL gets pretty gitty when he speaks about bringing it to Toronto. He wants to make a statement with the Winter Classic in Toronto. It will change how this thing is done from here on in.
TL wants to make it a spectacle. He has the empty CNE grounds sitting there doing nothing. He wants to make a whole area a Winter classic mecca for that weekend leading up to the game with a concert, Marlie game, activities etc.
If it's successful, and he can figure out how to do one every year, he has just figured out a way to get the CNE grounds lively and useful in the dead of winter.
The Stadium expansion is icing on the cake for his TFC project and it leads right into the next phase of his job - the Leafs.
Fixing the Raptors is last on his radar
I am convinced that Leiweke's remit is to smash that arrangement to smithereens. I am convinced this is what got Burke fired, he was a complete and vociferous toady to the league hierarchy.
The days where Nashville and Columbus have the same vote as MLSE are over.
The Leafs owners just paid $7 billion for the team and the TV rights. Think about that.
The Leafs will do what they effing feel like. If the owners want a war, they can read up on what happened with the Big 5 and the Football League in England in 1991.
Last edited by ensco; 03-25-2014 at 01:23 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
You are underestimating this marketplace.
MLS is the premier football league in the USA and Canada, so it is the highest level of football available to us in terms of supporting a domestic club. Yes, there are Euro snobs that will not take MLS seriously in this city, but there are also an increasing number of hardcore football fans and casual fans that are starting to take notice of TFC as a result of the remarkable off season that has transpired. If that translates to success on the pitch moving forward, it won't be difficult to consistently attract an additional 7000-8000 fans to an improved, renovated venue that will still be considered the best deal in town.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 03-25-2014 at 01:36 PM.
I agree they jack up prices too quickly, but if the demand is there, then they will increase the prices. Since they have sold out their season tickets this season, I guess people are willing to pay those prices.
Didn't TFC get 50K people to one of their games? Toronto FC might be consider minor league, but signing players like Defoe and Caser can change that. I already see people who don't normally support TFC suddenly start following them. If you look at their TV ratings, media coverage and ticket sales this year, it's hard not to believe new DP's aren't making an impact.As for the 30k number, I appreciate that you are dreamer. So, I'll let you dream. I don't see it as a sustainable number. Toronto, though maybe not LA, also doesn't support "minor league" clubs. MLS is viewed by many as a lower league relative to the EPL. Jermain Defoe isn't going to change that.
Apples and oranges. TFC gets better TV ratings than National team now. Problem with national team is that they have been losing for too long so there's bit of apathy from soccer fans in this country (not Toronto alone). However, if you look at women's national team, they sold out quickly last time they played in Toronto while their TV ratings were decent.If Toronto supported "soccer" in general, the National Team wouldn't draw 2-3x less than a friendly between United and Celtic.
I don't 100% agree with this.
TFC is minor league in the grand world scale of things, but reality is the big boys play too far away for us to touch, so MLS is our local big boys that we support. Minor league in comparison is USL, NASL etc.
MLS also doesn't conflict with other world leagues that most people watch, so TFC fills the need when there isn't something satisfying the masses.
30k is sustainable, but unlike the Leafs - TFC needs to compete and play proper football in order for it to last. They are in a minor league so they should be winning all the time. That is how the majority of cities footy fans sees this team.
When I see TL go after Snider and Jacobs i'll fall into that thinking. Until then...
Did Vancouver not have one of the classic games at BC Place, so why not use the dome and sell 60,000 seats?
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
I doubt TL wants to copy the farce that was an indoor "outdoor heritage classic".
At least the Leafs will finally take a seat at the grown-up table with those guys...
Fair comment.
I'll wager anyone a pint on this, though. The most obvious opportunity in the MLSE empire is to make the Leafs a true super club. Burke's public fight on the cap ran totally counter to that, that's why he had to be taken out.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Why was it a farce?
Remember The Man, The Legend, The Goal 5-12-07 and All That #9 Left On The Pitch, Thanks For The Memories !!!
Because 50,000 of those seats suck.
To make this work, you need good sightlines. With proper seats, not bleachers. So that you can consistently charge $200 or more a ticket.
No existing facility in the world has that capability. You'd need to design it in.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
An indoor "outdoor heritage classic" between 2 teams that don't exist anymore.
I dont see the attendance of the Argos going up if they move to BMO field. I think the lack of offordable parking and NO subway access being why. Right now Argos fans are sparse ....a Downsview park stadium may be the only saviour to an increase sale of tickets. the city needs to do more investigation on what will actually work rather than band aids.
*added: I see attendance being worse than it is now after the novelty of a different stadium wears out.
Last edited by gate7; 03-25-2014 at 01:57 PM.
Assuming a winning team, put the Argos outside, all bundled together in a smaller space, with a roof and thus noise, and you'll see a loud raucous atmosphere that will appeal to quite a few people.
25K seems about right.
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