I know the new concourse will be at the top of the south end, but has somebody said that the concession/toilets will be at the top or is this your speculation?Originally Posted by Areathrasher
Yes... They will finanlly get it
No.... They will screw this up royally
hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?
I know the new concourse will be at the top of the south end, but has somebody said that the concession/toilets will be at the top or is this your speculation?
Like most of these "sports and entertainment" companies, MLSE is mostly a real estate company. As long as they can develop condos and something else along with the stadium, it will be built where they get the greatest return. So, you're right, there's not a lot of downtown left for that kind of thing and when it comes to condo development they have more competition and can't keep it out the way they can a second NHL team and American cellphone companies.
So, I guess all we can do is hope they're right that when TFC play we would never even know the Argos share the stadium.
I am beginning to wonder when that will be. What will Rogers do when their facility becomes more hindrance then its worth? The usual idea is to build a stadium beside the old one. Not going to happen at the SkyDome.
I get the feeling they will build near the 407 in about 20 years.
The amount of money they are pouring into that concrete 80's monstrosity is going to get ridiculous in a few years.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 04-04-2014 at 01:06 PM.
They could play in Buffalo for a season and build a ballpark on the SkyDome site. Of course, it would be odd in among the condos. Could the waterfront be extended near the site of the old Maple Leafs stadium?
They could do what the Lions and Whitecaps did.
Build a Temporary stadium for a year on a site (like say Downsview) tear down Rogers (which is tricky because of the hotel with is own independently I believe) and build a new open air Ball Park (well retractable roof)
But it is 500 million to 1.5 billion to build a new park.
In Toronto a roof will be demanded... people in Toronto have no patience for weather.
Kaz
I won't quote you as yours was a long post. I declare my bias up front. The government (at any level) should not be funding sports stadiums IMO. Study after study concludes no economic benefit despite the common beliefs regarding tax revenue etc.
But set that aside, the landlord and tenant analogy is interesting. In this case the tenant was also the building designer and contractor. And now the building is supposedly poorly designed and falling apart. If this were Holmes on Homes, you think he'd recommend going back to the same contractor to rebuild it properly?
To me this discussion about public funds with a billion dollar corporation is assinine.
They enter into an agreement with a company to design and build a building.
The company does that.
The stadium starts to fall apart.
The company says yeah we thought it might. It wasn't designed for the elements.
But you designed it
Yeah
And..?
Well, it rained we weren't sure how much it would rain. In any event, you are going to have to pay $15m to fix it.
Me? Why?
Well you own it
But you designed and built it.
Yeah. Well, we don't have a warranty or anything but here's what we can do. We can build you a new one.
Why would I trust you to build me a new one?
We promise it will be better. Plus we'll do it right. But it won't be free.
How much?
Well tell you what I am going to do. I like you. For you my friend it will be 10M but you have to get your friends to put in a few million each too.
Friends? What do they get out of it?
Well every time someone goes in, they spend money right?
Yeah
So your friends get a share of that money.
But the person will spend that anyways on other things. They get it regardless.
Whatever. Look you need them to chip in or else you have to pay 15M now and geez, who knows what in 10 years? Could be huge. I wouldn't want that bill. But again, I like you. if you pay me to redo this building now that all goes away and you'll be a millionaire. You already owe me 15m, I'm only asking for 10m. You just saved $5M and didn't have to do anything. See what a great partner I am?
?
Last edited by Pookie; 04-04-2014 at 01:58 PM.
What is with this?
Hamilton, Buffalo...
Where should we move a Toronto team next?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
no one wants to go to Downsview to see anything
Well there was that time when ACDC made the Stones look like folkies......
Pookie Here is the flaw in that.
MLSE hired people to design the stadium on the Cities behalf, hired people to build the stadium on the Cities behalf, and operated as the Cities agent in the process.
So the City said here is money to build it.. and they built it with the money and time they had... U-17 World Cup was coming, TFC was coming.
To take your example
The response, is you didn't want to fund a roof and you delayed things trying to included the Argos. We did what we could with the funds and time we had.Well, it rained we weren't sure how much it would rain. In any event, you are going to have to pay $15m to fix it.
Me? Why?
Well you own it
But you designed and built it.
A process from ground breaking to completion took 13 months and for the period while design was happening for BMO the Argos refused to get involved. It was built for 60 million and you are right not enough money is was put in the first place, and it was built as well as it could at the time.
I'm mearly giving suggestions I didn't know Toronto FC existed until March of 2007. I haven't gone back to know just what happened.
The simple fact is looking at what happens now.
the City built it. The City is on the hook for 15 million, and MLSE is willing to come in and do right.
In fact they are saying we will take that money and actually give you a return on it and take over all maintenance and repairs in the future. But the board doesn't want to approve more money and based on the Strombo appearance I think the board may not be happy with the money he's spent, as they are used to high profits. The City isn't going after MLSE for the condition, or for the way it was built, this is the design that was built based on the fund that were there.
We can't cry about the past.. and there is no purpose served by punishing the future for the mistakes of the past. So why not save the city some money short term. Make the city some money long term, and let MLSE do things right... had the Argos been involved in the first place
We went from a 80 Million varsity stadium to a 69 Million Ex stadium. That is where the problems we are seeing now are coming from. MLSE at that time was not going to spend a cent they didn't have to. Today MLSE is trying to fix that.
I realize your bias, but your bias is misdirected. I'd agree with you 100% if they were going tear the stadium down totally and start from scratch. If this was a new Stadium no public money should be used and this would be a private stadium owned by MLSE. (like ACC)
but that isn't the case this is a City Stadium on City Land, approved by the city, with government funds. And was built on the cheap, to fill a need, because the Argo's wasted every ones time.
And now we have to go back fix it, and MLSE is putting up a huge portion of the money this time to do it... closer to right and let the Argo's who are now nearly homeless because they backed out last time.. to get the 25,000 seat stadium they were wanting 10 years ago.
Again we can't change mistakes from 10 years ago. All we can do if fix them as best we can. Under the current agreement it is a good deal. MLSE is doing right by this.
I understand your point, and I want to agree, but it's not good business to agree... MSLE doesn't have to do anything. They can take that money buy Land build a Soccer Specific Stadium say screw the Argos and leave BMO. If they were trying to hold the city hostage that is what they would be doing. Instead they are saying... lets fix this thing. and save the city money based on the current deal.
The bottom line is any stadium built at the ex should have been in the $125 range to begin with, and if TFC were a franchise today it would be.
Last edited by Kaz; 04-04-2014 at 03:13 PM.
MLSE doesn't have to do anything… unless it owns the Argos (per the Argos Clause). Then it has to do everything.
Since it doesn't own the Argos, it is using the Pan Am games as an artificial time clock to force a decision.
Time is short for BMO Field funds, MLSE’s Leiweke warns
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle17822147/
"...construction has to start by September or the first phase of renovations will not be ready by June 1, 2015 for the Pan American Games. This means MLSE, with the help of city officials, “has about a month to finish this all off,” including the injection of the $20-million from the province and the feds."
“If we don’t get the other funding this deal falls apart,” Leiweke said
Here's the real test and the part of your message that I quoted. What if this deal falls through? What if the Province and Feds believe that having patients waiting on beds in hallways for days is simply unacceptable and funds could be better used?
Would MLSE consider improving our collective soccer experience by building its own soccer specific stadium on new lands without government funds?
I don't think there are many that think that is even a remote possibility. (I'm going to give Beach Red credit for that thought)
MLSE doesn't have to do anything… unless it owns the Argos (per the Argos Clause). Then it has to do everything.
Since it doesn't own the Argos, it is using the Pan Am games as an artificial time clock to force a decision.
Time is short for BMO Field funds, MLSE’s Leiweke warns
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle17822147/
"...construction has to start by September or the first phase of renovations will not be ready by June 1, 2015 for the Pan American Games. This means MLSE, with the help of city officials, “has about a month to finish this all off,” including the injection of the $20-million from the province and the feds."
“If we don’t get the other funding this deal falls apart,” Leiweke said
Here's the real test and the part of your message that I quoted. What if this deal falls through? What if the Province and Feds believe that having patients waiting on beds in hallways for days is simply unacceptable and funds could be better used? Or funding for Mental Health Programs should be more of a priority than just a "Bell - Let's Talk" day?
Would MLSE consider improving our collective soccer experience by building its own soccer specific stadium on new lands without government funds?
I don't think there are many that think that is even a remote possibility. (I'm going to give Beach Red credit for that thought)
I don't know... I'd love to see government fund Mental Health programs. I have Panic disorder and all medication I've ever been given results in Serotonin Syndrome and I've come out worse off then I was before. So trust me I'd like to see more funding for a lot of things. But I don't think this is a we fund one thing or the other situation, particularly from a Federal Gov't that runs hate Ads on an hourly basis and is trying to build as much voter apathy as they can in young people.
And if the Province, Feds don't then BMO stays as it is, I'm fine with that. I like BMO I don't have the hate people have for it. It's one of the few Sporting Venues I can go to without having to worry about a Panic Attack because it is so open and fairly orderly (getting in and out can be a challenge but not much of one) The only people that loose out is the City if this doesn't happen. Right now we don't know where the money is coming from.
I suspect and would say I'm 80% certain that Federally it's coming from $500 million already ear marked for this kind of thing, so it's not taking money away from anything and I think they are lightest barrier to this. (I'm more annoyed with the 69 million for Tim Hortons Field then 10 Million for BMO) The Province I don't know what route MLSE are going, the Province is the group that is most likely to say no, or taking money from other sources. Even then I don't think it would be.
Mental Health for example is a whole other issue, is is highly underfunded, and backwards as a whole.
city signed a CONTRACT saying they'd pay for 50% of capital repairs/maintenance...it is a contract...pretty simple
Downsview . . .
We really enjoyed our invite and visit to the Kia Training Ground and Academy in Downsview last fall!
J&M
yeah but this why the city makes $5m and does not have to pay for 50% of capital repairs/maintenance anymore. and will not lose the argos.
I get all the usual 'this is why we shouldn't spend public funds' reasons. But it's going to be mighty hard to pass up that big increase in provincial and federal annual tax revenue.
On top of that, the city manager confirmed yesterday that the $20 million would be virtually cancelled out by construction taxes to the province and feds. So they'd get their investment back quickly and have a bunch of extra cash next year to spend elsewhere.
Spend money to make money.
I really can't see this being shot down.
I'm honestly surprised MLSE or a friendly councillor hasn't publicly said "You shoot this deal down....have fun finding the cash to build something else for the Argos in the next 3 years."
Maybe they're saving that one for later.
But Haddy, what EXTRA tax revenue?
Are we all getting raises and will have more disposable income the moment this deal is finalized?
Simplified, assume you make $2,000 a month and have $200 left over each month after your living expenses and savings.
Wherever you spend that $200, in almost all cases the government gets its 13%. If you buy movie tickets. Jays tickets. Argo tickets. TFC tickets. Pan Am tickets. A new shirt. Buy a pizza. A watch. A towel for the bathroom. A new golf club. A fitness membership. A beer at BMO field. A beer at Joe's. concert tickets. A hotel room. Admission to the zoo. A helicopter ride. Take a ferry to the islands. Treat yourself to a ride on the 407ETR. Whatever.
Your taxes on that $200 go to the government anyways.
Unless disposable income goes up, the net effect to the government is essentially nothing.
That is the conclusion of study after study on the impact of sports stadiums on local economies.
Last edited by Pookie; 04-04-2014 at 10:09 PM.
Well lets think about it... I'm not making a judgement just thinking where money would come from.
lets say
the Argos increase sales by 1,000 seats a game. (9 games)
TFC increase sales by 4,000 seats a game (17 games)
and you host a Winter Classic with 42,000 seats.
Let's assume average ticket price of $65. That is 77,000 more seats sold a season, 5 million in revenue or $600,000 in HST
figure an average of $30 spent at concessions $300,000 in HST
Total annual tax increase of $900,000 from HST (550,000 to Ontario 350,000 to the Feds)
A Winter Classic would be be about $500,000 in HST revenue.
That would average out to be 1 million a year in extra tax revenue over the first 5 years.
Another source of income is the construction it self as materials are taxed. If only 33% of MLSE's $90 million is materials that would be about $4 million in taxes
So in 5 years it is possible to see 9 million recouped.
If 50% of the building costs is taxable then it would be closer to $6 million
This isn't of course taking into account increased ticket prices, increased staff (which is increased disposable income and income tax), or special events that would sell more tickets (Play-offs, MLS Cup etc). I intentionally didn't include the Grey Cups as they are basically a wash as Rogers is a bigger venue so it's not a boon. I haven't included Property Tax because well a) it's to the city and b) it's a city building and I don't think there is any
This is of course highly simplified, and makes some assumptions that may be low balled. I also have no idea if full HST is spent on building supplies or if they find ways around it.
But your point Pookie is well taken, the added Fallacy that is being spouted about recouping funds. Is they assume BMO will sell out for TFC and that would generate 2-3 million in taxes a year. Add in the Winter Classic, a Friendly or two, and taxes on building supplies... and you have 20 million recouped very quickly. I think it is wishful projections. It would likely take 10-15 years depending on Ticket Prices (assuming my estimates are even close... which they might not be)
Increased taxes from more jobs at BMO and the cost from MLSE spending 90 million that has to go to people during the building process may be part of it as well. (taxes taken from that 90 million could be from $8-12 million (in theory)) It's possible the money being asked for from the government comes down to nothing more than a tax break (which is something I haven't thought of before) The Conservative Government loves giving tax breaks to big corporations and the rich... so if that is what is happening the feds might get on board.
Last edited by Kaz; 04-05-2014 at 12:44 AM.
Kaz
Your scenarios could indeed show increased revenue from BMO Field. Just by adding the Argos, the revenues are bound to go up from that team. That's why I argued that the Argos to BMO was going to happen as it makes economic sense.
What I argue against is public funds being used for the facilitation of that move. The economic justification for public funds just doesn't exist, IMO.
As I said, your scenarios will result in increased revenue coming from BMO Field. But because this revenue is going to come largely from fans that live in the GTA and who have not experienced increases in their disposable income (ie. they still only have $200 a month to spend on Entertainment) there will be no net gain.
Simply put, if you go to more Argo games or buy Winter Classic tickets or whatever else is going on at BMO, you don't buy something else. Here's a basic example.
Maybe this buzz convinces a Jays fan to go to Argo games. He has $200 and it's September. He can go to 4 games at a cost of $50 a piece for either team. He normally goes to 4 Jays games ($200) but instead chooses 2 Argo games ($100) and can then only afford 2 Jays games ($100).
BMO Field's balance sheet goes up through the increased attendance. The Jays lose $100.
Ticketmaster charges 13% HST regardless of the team he chooses to see. The government gets it's $26 regardless of whatever game he attends.
The ONLY way this results in new revenue for the Province is if it attracts people from outside of Ontario and for the Federal Government, outside of Canada. Those people would have been taxed in their home state/province/country. That might happen for a Winter Classic if fans travel from the USA or a Grey Cup with visitors from other Provinces. Might happen with the Pan Am Games too.
But here's the kicker. If those events were held in other venues, those people were coming anyways. People traveled to Rogers' Center for the Grey Cup. If the Winter Classic was held at Rogers Center, they would go there. The Pan Am games? Coming in 2015 as a function of it being here. Those people are coming regardless of whether BMO gets built and the revenue will still be there if this stadium expansion gets nixed.
Pookie
I acknowledge all of that.. like I say I wasn't making a judgement either way.
I also pointed included items not included in your model. This includes Job creation (BMO would have to employee more people) and taxes from Construction.
I have no idea how much is actually taxed but you have to hire workers, buy materials etc. If you were to assume all 90 million that MLSE puts in was taxed that is 11 million dollars just at 13 percent. But if you add in wages paid, that number could be higher. IF they use tax breaks and the like that could be lower. which is why I mention 4 to 6 million. (if you go further and assume all 120 million is taxable at an average rate of 13% (after deductions and accounting for higher tax rate employees) that is 15 million by it self going right back to the government, and the remaining 5 million could be assumed to be recouped in extra spending (over savings which is a increase in the economy, and increased jobs, making the 20 million from the Province and Feds nothing more then a tax break in the end)
There are two thoughts expressed in the early posts, that you take the recoup monies from the actual increased usage, which you rightly points out only really counts if it encourages people to spend money they wouldn't have anyway. There are other flaws in that thinking (like assuming sold out games) that I pointed out.
But you also forget that there will be construction costs that will be taxed, and new jobs created.
When you combine all the factors.. the Province will likely recoup some if not all the money it puts in.
The Feds would be taking money from a fund already ear marked for the Pan-Am games. Which if they are willing to spend 69 million to build a ti-cats stadium (under the guise of Pan-Am) , improvements to BMO could be included in that category too.
Again I don't disagree, Though some of the money will be recouped, most will not be.
When I ran numbers, I only included increased seat sales, taking into account the lost to Rogers, and the wash of the Grey Cup (of course they can't stay at Rogers so no matter where they go it's the same wash) And so in my previous post I didn't included numbers for the Grey Cup, for all the reasons you listed.
I realize you have a serious hate on for Public money, I get it I sympathize with it. The Federal Gov't has already set a side money for the Pan-Am games for these kinds of changes, and it can allow more tickets to be sold, or the experience to be better great. The same argument goes for the province who have been known to help in these types of situations and will likely recoup a portion of it in tax revenue just from construction.
At this point though, nothing anyone says is going to change you mind, and nothing you say is going to change the reality of the current situation. (As I've said in principle I don't disagree entirely) Perhaps we should move on to something more productive.
It's so interesting to see big business like Bell and Rogers, who spend so much time complaining about "over-regulation" and government interference in their other businesses, having no problem giving up all this revenue to the government in this business.
i have a feeling if investing in sports stadiums was really good business then business would complain about the government being involved in it.
What's going on in provincial government these days, I wonder if they will give their $10 million before TL deadline on time (we might have election soon). Federal government have been quiet on this project besides spokeswoman for infrastructure minister saying no. Federal government are too busy trying to balance their books before next election. So I don't see them giving money to MLSE especially since they have rejected other cities with their stadium renovation. Plus, politically giving money to MLSE might tick off rest of Canada which is the last thing Tories want since polls suggest they're behind Liberals.
I don't see how anyone can justify adding 10K seats for rugby 7 event played by teams in one of the weakest rugby region (North & South America). So this whole Pan-am game excuse isn't going to work for average joe.
If you made an argument the money is for World Cup 2026 bid, then sure I understand that because amount of tourists coming all over the world to watch world cup will make investment worth it.
If that's the case, then I hope government opens up the market and foreign companies like Verizon set up their business here. Then we'll see how quick Bell/Rogers change their tune. They shouldn't bitch about "over-regulation" since it's help them make money by making it very difficult for foreign companies to do business here.
Once again the Federal Gov't gave 69 million to Hamilton to build a stadium for Soccer (even though BMO is right in the middle of the main Pan-Am Cluster) and Ivor Wynne could have just been reno'ed for Rugby 7) MLSE has a strong case to ask for $10 million for these upgrades, for a city facility that will be taking a lot of turf damage as a result of the Rugby-7 games being played there. The Pan-Am Money would likely go to Field Maintenance and the Grass Master turf. MLSE is just putting everything together as one Package. As has been stated the current Budget has $500 million ear marked for the Pan-Am games next year.
I really think on the Province is going to be a sticker... now that the City has approved I think we will see more movement from Feds and the Province. The key to this is who is playing chicken. The Province may be waiting for the feds and the feds the province. We will see.
At this point I'm most worried about Turf and Paint. I'd like to see the design and would like to see an example of this mythical paint that can be removed from Grass.
Money for Pan-am game was asked by MLSE because they wanted to increase seating capacity. MLSE argument had nothing to do with the turf at all.
Hamilton got money back when? Blame MLSE and City for not trying to get soccer at BMO field. Don't blame government for city/MLSE mistake.
You obviously basing your argument on your own personal opinion while I have given you clear examples why Feds wouldn't give money and how they have been pretty consistent saying no to other cities in the past. Pan-am games budget is done with and I don't expect feds to pour in more money now. It's a little late for asking money for Pan-am games. It's better to focus on World Cup bid to get some funds from feds.
Provincial government is verge on calling an election if their budget isn't passed in coming weeks. So their decision might be postpone so I highly doubt they're playing games and waiting for others to make their decision. Also remember that provincial government has been under fire for giving MLSE money in the past ($500,000 to host NBA all-star game in 2016). I don't think they want to get back to this issue again.
Last edited by TFC07; 04-05-2014 at 01:32 PM.
I think as long as it's a water based paint, it will be easy to wash off
This year the is an extra $500 million in the federal budget specifically for this kind of upgrades moving forward for the Pan-Am games, BMO field is in the middle of the main Pan Am area.
We do not know what MLSE has presented to either government.
Part of MLSE's plan is to put in a new more resilient field.
The Current Stadium in Hamilton Tim Hortons Field that is being built right now is being built with 69 million federal dollars given by the current government.
It is budgeted at $145.7 million. The city is contributing $54.3 million, the province $22.3 million and federal government paying the remaining $69.1 million.
I've provided this information for you over and over.. I'm not doing it again. We will know shortly if the money is there... We don't know what the pitch from MLSE is to the Gov't, only what it is to the public, might not be the same and is likely much more stream lined.
Lets all just put the money on back burner till something concrete occurs.
Last edited by Kaz; 04-05-2014 at 02:01 PM.
Glad to see you get it TFC07. The only new revenue that could potentially come from any expansion is the rise in property taxes around the area.
As for Hamiltons stadium. It was due to undergo a $70-$100m renovation anyways. I think the north side had 5 years left after the 2012 season. It made more sense to build from scratch.
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