View Poll Results: If seating expansion occurs... will we get a supporter/controlled section?

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  • Yes... They will finanlly get it

    82 22.10%
  • No.... They will screw this up royally

    213 57.41%
  • hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?

    76 20.49%
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  1. #3211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    I'd like to see a dedicated stadium, not a multi-use stadium. I'd like to see MLSE build it on their own without having to ask the city, the province or any other entity for money. I'd like TFC to have one of the top 5 stadiums in MLS.
    By 2016 we will have the largest Soccer First Stadium in either Canada or the US.

    But lets think about it for a minute.


    in 2005 Average Attendance was 15,000
    in 2006 it was about 15,500.

    In 2002 Tampa and Miami folded.

    In 2005 San Jose was moved. RSL and Chivas started play....

    so in 2006 when Toronto got the Franchise there were a lot of what ifs. So MLSE rightly built the stadium as cheapily as they could.

    ACC was for a sell out franchise in loss seasons. So it is a safe build.


    Now TFC is still doing all right and so MLSE is looking to spend money on their current stadium in a good location, (there is still a what if).

    The Multiuse issue is what it is. If TFC keeps doing well to the point a 30-35,000 stadium is needed then I'm sure MLSE is willing to spend that money down the road, but at the moment they aren't prepared to build that stadium, and as such we are where we are, where they are looking to renovate and produce something I hope will look decent.


    What amazes me about TFC fans is that nothing is ever good enough. Roof gets put on.. and it's not the right roof, stadium gets expanded to be as good as possible for soccer, and makes it soccer first.. nope not good enough. 100m being spent on upgrades.. nope want a new stadium.

    Third in the East.. not good enough...

    There is this a vocal group on this board that just can't stop complaining about every single decision made.

    In 2 years we will have a stadium that is much better then anything MLSE would have build them selves in 2007, and is really no different then what we would have if it were totally their own stadium..

    CFL lines is the only point of contention for me. The plan is solid beyond that.

  2. #3212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    By 2016 we will have the largest Soccer First Stadium in either Canada or the US.

    But lets think about it for a minute.


    in 2005 Average Attendance was 15,000
    in 2006 it was about 15,500.

    In 2002 Tampa and Miami folded.

    In 2005 San Jose was moved. RSL and Chivas started play....

    so in 2006 when Toronto got the Franchise there were a lot of what ifs. So MLSE rightly built the stadium as cheapily as they could.

    ACC was for a sell out franchise in loss seasons. So it is a safe build.


    Now TFC is still doing all right and so MLSE is looking to spend money on their current stadium in a good location, (there is still a what if).

    The Multiuse issue is what it is. If TFC keeps doing well to the point a 30-35,000 stadium is needed then I'm sure MLSE is willing to spend that money down the road, but at the moment they aren't prepared to build that stadium, and as such we are where we are, where they are looking to renovate and produce something I hope will look decent.


    What amazes me about TFC fans is that nothing is ever good enough. Roof gets put on.. and it's not the right roof, stadium gets expanded to be as good as possible for soccer, and makes it soccer first.. nope not good enough. 100m being spent on upgrades.. nope want a new stadium.

    Third in the East.. not good enough...

    There is this a vocal group on this board that just can't stop complaining about every single decision made.

    In 2 years we will have a stadium that is much better then anything MLSE would have build them selves in 2007, and is really no different then what we would have if it were totally their own stadium..

    CFL lines is the only point of contention for me. The plan is solid beyond that.
    I agree with everything except the bolded part. They may reluctantly spend some money, which is what the current reno feels like. And also, of course, I have a hard time getting over how they practically ruined the franchise to begin with but there's no point in rehashing that. MLSE is what we have and likely all we'll ever have. I wish there was some competition in the sports world in Toronto but it's not going to happen so we have to be happy with what they give us, I guess.

  3. #3213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    I agree with everything except the bolded part. They may reluctantly spend some money, which is what the current reno feels like. And also, of course, I have a hard time getting over how they practically ruined the franchise to begin with but there's no point in rehashing that. MLSE is what we have and likely all we'll ever have. I wish there was some competition in the sports world in Toronto but it's not going to happen so we have to be happy with what they give us, I guess.

    Well semi-new people are in charge and they seem to be trying. Better to Reno this stadium right now, then try to find land, buy it and put a new stadium on it.

    The City wanting the Argos there is because Torontians don't take municipal elections serious enough, and councillors don't take their jobs serious enough, I don't think many of them take the time to research issues in council, particularly the ones that have been pushing for this.

    MLSE spent a fair amount on the ACC.. which to me means they are willing to spend when there is a return on the spending... and again we don't know what "new" MLSE is and isn't willing to do long term.

  4. #3214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Well semi-new people are in charge and they seem to be trying. Better to Reno this stadium right now, then try to find land, buy it and put a new stadium on it.

    The City wanting the Argos there is because Torontians don't take municipal elections serious enough, and councillors don't take their jobs serious enough, I don't think many of them take the time to research issues in council, particularly the ones that have been pushing for this.

    MLSE spent a fair amount on the ACC.. which to me means they are willing to spend when there is a return on the spending... and again we don't know what "new" MLSE is and isn't willing to do long term.
    Kaz and BR - good discussion.

    It does feel a little like dipping the toe in the water but Kaz is right in that you have to look at it as progress. TFC was a projected 14,000 fans a game mini-project for them. Peddie admitted that it was a "learn on the job" kind of portfolio for Anselmi.

    Results of that aside, the team is now at a point where growth is somewhat sustainable. There are things they killed, like grass roots support but all in all the team is progressing. Games are no longer buried on GolTV or The Score. They actually get main stream press coverage at times.

    For MLSE to commit to a fully financed super soccer stadium that is exclusive for TFC is probably not within their comfort zone. This is still a very, very young venture at this point and they don't need to make that kind of commitment at this stage of the game. Their finances, in the context of investing in MLS, are just fine without the need to take on that massive risk.

    Sure, this renovation is expensive. But when you add… again, Tim L's words and desires not mine… Grey Cups and Winter Classics to the mix, along with steady revenue from the Argos, the investment risks are mitigated.

    In some ways, people should be happy they are talking about the Argos, Grey Cups and Winter Classics as those are likely going to help get stadium improvements for the fans that go. As I said a long way back, if they are coming it's best to try to parlay that into the things you want most.

    I'd wager that a soccer only facility is less attractive to MLSE and probably wouldn't get that level of investment… or they otherwise would have already done it.

  5. #3215
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    Today's news:

    Bon Jovi part of Toronto group interested in Bills: report



    Rogers, MLSE's Tanenbaum also involved

    Rocker Jon Bon Jovi is part of a Toronto group that has retained a banking firm and submitted paperwork expressing interest in buying the Buffalo Bills, three people who have reviewed documents regarding the sale process told The Associated Press on Friday.

    Read more here: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/nf...port-1.2711427

    So this related because NFL will make a condition to make sure Argos aren't negatively affected if Toronto group ends up buying Bills and moving them to Toronto. This is why MLSE is interested in buying Argos.

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    The new Ottawa stadium looks nice. But those End zones are huge.
    I still don't see how that field will fit into BMO.

  7. #3217
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    Quote Originally Posted by glaze View Post
    The new Ottawa stadium looks nice. But those End zones are huge.
    I still don't see how that field will fit into BMO.
    The pitch end 5 yards inside each endzone.
    9-10 rows of stands roll out from permanent stands to behind the goal and cover 10-12 yards into the end zone.
    Think the south end seats, front half accordion under the top half for Argos games.
    This is the way the vancouver seats work next time you watch a whitecaps game on TSN.

  8. #3218
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Today's news:

    Bon Jovi part of Toronto group interested in Bills: report



    Rogers, MLSE's Tanenbaum also involved

    Rocker Jon Bon Jovi is part of a Toronto group that has retained a banking firm and submitted paperwork expressing interest in buying the Buffalo Bills, three people who have reviewed documents regarding the sale process told The Associated Press on Friday.

    Read more here: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/nf...port-1.2711427

    So this related because NFL will make a condition to make sure Argos aren't negatively affected if Toronto group ends up buying Bills and moving them to Toronto. This is why MLSE is interested in buying Argos.
    Now Bon a Jovi is claiming they will keep the Bills in Buffalo - probably feeling the heat from the other bidders, former Sabres owners.

    http://deadspin.com/bon-jovi-reporte...1608050668/all

  9. #3219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Now Bon a Jovi is claiming they will keep the Bills in Buffalo - probably feeling the heat from the other bidders, former Sabres owners.

    http://deadspin.com/bon-jovi-reporte...1608050668/all
    Of course Jovi (Larry T and Rogers Family for that matter) isn't going to say anything about relocating Bills especially there isn't stadium in Toronto right now to host NFL games.

  10. #3220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Now Bon a Jovi is claiming they will keep the Bills in Buffalo - probably feeling the heat from the other bidders, former Sabres owners.

    http://deadspin.com/bon-jovi-reporte...1608050668/all
    it will prob be in Niagara Falls....close to Canada , all the flash, and New York fans to still support......
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

  11. #3221
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Of course Jovi (Larry T and Rogers Family for that matter) isn't going to say anything about relocating Bills especially there isn't stadium in Toronto right now to host NFL games.
    Do you think there will be a stadium in the next 30 years?

  12. #3222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Do you think there will be a stadium in the next 30 years?
    If there's a World Cup or Summer Olympics, then yes there will be (80K seat) stadium. Also, I believe some GTA cities (like Mississauga) will build a stadium especially if Argos or some other investors (another pro soccer team or cricket) need a stadium and willing to contribute money to build a stadium.

  13. #3223
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    CFL Commisioner just mentioned on Argos v Ottawa broadcast on TSN2 that CFL/Argos still talking with MLSE about moving to BMO.

    Dom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastend View Post
    CFL Commisioner just mentioned on Argos v Ottawa broadcast on TSN2 that CFL/Argos still talking with MLSE about moving to BMO.

    Dom.
    FYI, that's a repeat telecast of last Friday night's game. I also heard Mark Cohon mentioning BMO Field. Obviously, this is not over.

  15. #3225
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    Ha, thanks again. Sorry for old news.

    Dom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastend View Post
    CFL Commisioner just mentioned on Argos v Ottawa broadcast on TSN2 that CFL/Argos still talking with MLSE about moving to BMO.

    Dom.
    That's interesting because it means CFL/Argos aren't going to pay $20 million to get Argos into BMO field if they're still talking to MLSE to get them there. Also, this means two level of government (Federal and Provincial) isn't going to give Argos/CFL money either. So talking to MLSE to get them pay to get Argos there is their only option right now. I don't see City of Toronto (owners of BMO field) spending $20 million on Argos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    That's interesting because it means CFL/Argos aren't going to pay $20 million to get Argos into BMO field if they're still talking to MLSE to get them there. Also, this means two level of government (Federal and Provincial) isn't going to give Argos/CFL money either. So talking to MLSE to get them pay to get Argos there is their only option right now. I don't see City of Toronto (owners of BMO field) spending $20 million on Argos.
    ^ keep the dream alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    ^ keep the dream alive.
    Huh? Why is CFL still talking to MLSE instead of governments and City of Toronto (owners of BMO field)? If CFL going to pay for it, then they would have done it already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Huh? Why is CFL still talking to MLSE instead of governments and City of Toronto (owners of BMO field)? If CFL going to pay for it, then they would have done it already.
    So much politics, so many deals to be made. Lots of talking still to be done. At least everyone involved have known each other for years. It's not that long ago John Tory was CFL commissioner - is he still ahead in the polls? This will all get worked out at a cottage in Muskoka....

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    Wake me up when something - ANYTHING - happens.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    So much politics, so many deals to be made. Lots of talking still to be done. At least everyone involved have known each other for years. It's not that long ago John Tory was CFL commissioner - is he still ahead in the polls? This will all get worked out at a cottage in Muskoka....
    John "who have lost every election he run in" Tory leading a poll? I thought it was Chow.

    I personally believe CFL is getting desperate here if they're still talking to MLSE about BMO field. It's pretty clear that CFL/Argos needs either put up cash or shut up if they want to move to BMO field since there's little political will to get Argos move to BMO field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    John "who have lost every election he run in" Tory leading a poll? I thought it was Chow.

    I personally believe CFL is getting desperate here if they're still talking to MLSE about BMO field. It's pretty clear that CFL/Argos needs either put up cash or shut up if they want to move to BMO field since there's little political will to get Argos move to BMO field.
    The CFL has been desperate for a hundred years, nothing new here at all. What this whole process lacks is any kind of leadership. MLSE should be way too big for this but they can't seem to give up the posibility of ten million in government money. That should be too small for them to bother with but here we are and they're still talking. There's cautious and then there's cautious....

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    Reading between the lines, MLSE doesn't mind using the CFL to get cash to put up the stands they want for the Winter Classic. But, in the end, if the CFL and the governments don't play ball, I wouldn't be surprised if MLSE just goes ahead and adds the extra seat option.

    The change in June from the CFL being necessary for the initial renovations to being possible for the 3rd stage indicates to me that MLSE is fully invested in the expansion to 30K but not in the rest of it as planned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Huh? Why is CFL still talking to MLSE instead of governments and City of Toronto (owners of BMO field)? If CFL going to pay for it, then they would have done it already.
    As BR says it comes down to politics.

    MLSE said no to buying the Argos... right now. They didn't say never. In fact, months ago they themselves said they were contemplating it. Thinking about it enough to take it to the Board. Who said... not right now.

    The fact that the two are still talking is logical.

    The government part doesn't need to happen yet. At least in the public eye. The phase 3 condition has until 2017 to be met. To put it out publicly would be counter productive when the government has said it won't fund stadiums.

    What it could do is fund events, like it did for FIFA or Grey Cups. The city could also pull an Ottawa and in exchange for a capital investment on the part of the CFL/Argos' owner or MLSE paying for it themselves, it could give the Argos free rent. Debit on one side of the ledger and a credit on the other. In the end, it's a subsidy.

    You seem to see this as a last resort. I admire your passion. It really is just part of the process. There is a timeline for negotiations and there is no impedius to commit funds at this point by any side in this deal.

    But since every side has a lot to lose... Btw did you know that 2017 will be the Leafs' 100th season? Winter Classic and events surrounding that would make a mint ..... I think you will see a resolution.

  25. #3235
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Huh? Why is CFL still talking to MLSE instead of governments and City of Toronto (owners of BMO field)? If CFL going to pay for it, then they would have done it already.

    Well lets see.

    MLSE does not own a CFL team, as such the Argo's and CFL are the best group of people to be talking to MLSE about what needs to be included in Phase 3. As doing Phase 1 and 2 without knowing and planning a head for phase 3 would be dumb and expensive, talking to them now to ensure the facilities can be altered easily and as cheaply as possible is one reason.

    The Second Reason is MLSE are the ones doing the Reno, as such they are the ones making the plans, hiring the builders, and collecting the money, as such if CFL and the Argo want in, then talking to MLSE about what that cost is going to be and where the money is going is another possible reason.

    A Third Option is that the Argo's and the CFL have gone back to MLSE about the purchase and are discussing what the number needs to be for MLSE to buy them, and if money for the BMO upgrades need to be there. (ie does the Sale number need to be closer to 2 million, and CFL/Braley need to put money in for the BMO expansion before hand.

    there are pleanty of reasons. in actual fact there are few reason I can think of why the CFL or the Argo's would be talking to the city, once the plan was approved MLSE is in control. If you want a specific tub and a wall 2 feet east in your condo while it is being built, you don't contact the holding company in Asia that approved it, you contact the company managing the construction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    As BR says it comes down to politics.

    MLSE said no to buying the Argos... right now. They didn't say never. In fact, months ago they themselves said they were contemplating it. Thinking about it enough to take it to the Board. Who said... not right now.
    According to sources, MLSE buying Argos is dead; They're no longer interested in buying Argos since they don't see any upside owning them. BTW: OP said CFL commissioner is talking to MLSE about moving to BMO field not about purchasing Argos.

    The government part doesn't need to happen yet. At least in the public eye. The phase 3 condition has until 2017 to be met. To put it out publicly would be counter productive when the government has said it won't fund stadiums.
    Federal government have been firm on this and I don't see them changing their mind. Provincial government is still a question mark where their intention is on this issue. I wouldn't be surprised if Provincial don't give $10 million in the end.

    What it could do is fund events, like it did for FIFA or Grey Cups. The city could also pull an Ottawa and in exchange for a capital investment on the part of the CFL/Argos' owner or MLSE paying for it themselves, it could give the Argos free rent. Debit on one side of the ledger and a credit on the other. In the end, it's a subsidy.
    BMO field is too small to host Grey Cup. Also given size of CFL field, how they're going to have stands in South end and add 15,000 to meet Grey Cup seating minimum? There isn't going to be enough room to host Grey Cup at BMO field.

    But since every side has a lot to lose... Btw did you know that 2017 will be the Leafs' 100th season? Winter Classic and events surrounding that would make a mint ..... I think you will see a resolution.
    Yes I know Leafs are reason why MLSE is rushing to renovate BMO field.

    Most likely thing going to happen is MLSE going to end up paying that $20 million so they can host Maple Leafs winter classic for one year while host bigger soccer games with 40K seats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Well lets see.

    MLSE does not own a CFL team, as such the Argo's and CFL are the best group of people to be talking to MLSE about what needs to be included in Phase 3. As doing Phase 1 and 2 without knowing and planning a head for phase 3 would be dumb and expensive, talking to them now to ensure the facilities can be altered easily and as cheaply as possible is one reason.
    The Second Reason is MLSE are the ones doing the Reno, as such they are the ones making the plans, hiring the builders, and collecting the money, as such if CFL and the Argo want in, then talking to MLSE about what that cost is going to be and where the money is going is another possible reason.
    These things are planned out by MLSE and approved by City of Toronto already. I think MLSE already knows what they're working with when they came up with budget to renovate BMO field. It's pretty clear what's cost going to be and where money is going.

    A Third Option is that the Argo's and the CFL have gone back to MLSE about the purchase and are discussing what the number needs to be for MLSE to buy them, and if money for the BMO upgrades need to be there. (ie does the Sale number need to be closer to 2 million, and CFL/Braley need to put money in for the BMO expansion before hand.
    Goes back to my comment that CFL is desperate here. Picture is already clear how much it's going to cost to get Argos there, so finding a cheaper option tells me money isn't there for Argos to move in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    According to sources, MLSE buying Argos is dead; They're no longer interested in buying Argos since they don't see any upside owning them. BTW: OP said CFL commissioner is talking to MLSE about moving to BMO field not about purchasing Argos.
    They said not at this time.

    Federal government have been firm on this and I don't see them changing their mind. Provincial government is still a question mark where their intention is on this issue. I wouldn't be surprised if Provincial don't give $10 million in the end.
    Again, there is creativity when it comes to not fundings stadiums but funding events. Whether the government kicks in, MLSE could waive it or the Argos/CFL could pay for it. Or the city simply gives the Argos a 30 year rent free deal like Ottawa did.

    BMO field is too small to host Grey Cup. Also given size of CFL field, how they're going to have stands in South end and add 15,000 to meet Grey Cup seating minimum? There isn't going to be enough room to host Grey Cup at BMO field.
    Tell Tim L that. He's the one talking about Grey Cups.

    Phase 3 is all about CFL renovations and getting the number to 40,000

    Yes I know Leafs are reason why MLSE is rushing to renovate BMO field.

    Most likely thing going to happen is MLSE going to end up paying that $20 million so they can host Maple Leafs winter classic for one year while host bigger soccer games with 40K seats.
    Don't forget the Grey Cups. Tim L talks about them quite openly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    They said not at this time.
    No, it's completely dead.

    Again, there is creativity when it comes to not fundings stadiums but funding events. Whether the government kicks in, MLSE could waive it or the Argos/CFL could pay for it. Or the city simply gives the Argos a 30 year rent free deal like Ottawa did.
    What events? World Cup? Government isn't going to fund BMO field unless it's going to be World Cup, but we wouldn't know that until end of this decade if Canada ends up hosting World Cup or not.

    Also, MLSE gets a say on these rental talks and Argos will have to pay union fees to City ($110,00 per game) to use BMO field. So getting rent free deal isn't going to happen.
    Tell Tim L that. He's the one talking about Grey Cups.

    Phase 3 is all about CFL renovations and getting the number to 40,000



    Don't forget the Grey Cups. Tim L talks about them quite openly.
    Tim L is blowing smoke here. We should know by now that Tim L talks a lot BS. He's just selling idea hosting big events so he can get money from government to rebuild BMO field which it didn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    No, it's completely dead.
    Well then those discussions they are having must be about how each other's golf game is coming along then…?

    What events? World Cup? Government isn't going to fund BMO field unless it's going to be World Cup, but we wouldn't know that until end of this decade if Canada ends up hosting World Cup or not.
    Feds gave Argos money for the last Grey Cup 2012, Province did too. Reports are they made a profit of $10M

    Typically, the host team generates a profit of $3 million to $4 million, as the game sells out each year. What made this year’s game different is that the Argos and the CFL received $9.5 million from the federal and provincial governments to celebrate the game. The Ministry of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages gave $5 million while Tourism Ontario spent $4.5 million.

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/2012/1...s_sources.html

    Also, MLSE gets a say on these rental talks and Argos will have to pay union fees to City ($110,00 per game) to use BMO field. So getting rent free deal isn't going to happen.
    Sure, it can never happen. I guess they could always wait for a subsidy from Tourism Ontario or the Ministry of Heritage and Official Languages

 

 

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