View Poll Results: If seating expansion occurs... will we get a supporter/controlled section?

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  • Yes... They will finanlly get it

    82 22.10%
  • No.... They will screw this up royally

    213 57.41%
  • hmmm... not sure? how much money will they make from this?

    76 20.49%
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  1. #2791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Ok to Simplify.

    as soon as the season is over this year they will start work, in early 2015 after an extended road trip (or Rogers games) will have to happen till about may at which point it should look like this.
    Or close to it (just less or more yucky)



    Then after the 2015 work will start on the Roof and some time between March and May of 2016 Bmo will look like this kinda.


    That is just the stuff from the PDF.

    The idea is to cause as little disruption.

    So the Roof people who have been yelling they want a roof should be happy now...

    I'm still unsure as to what is happening with the grass... we've heard Field Turf endzones but I can't see that... I know CFL fans (as has been stated here) don't seem to think their is a injury risk with a surface change part way into the endzone.. but I can't see that going well. Someone is going to hit a seam and break an ankle.

    They would have to be putting Grassmaster through out, leaving the seats back most of the time. a few dead patches have to be safer then a long seam.

    So this is happening...

    If this is going to go bad this may be my last season. Which is sad. I refuse to give MLSE money if this goes badly.

    If they can do a better job then they do in Seattle with the lines... it could end up being as good as Seattle. If we can get a little on field success.

    Time will tell... but

    This is happening.
    I'm gonna be honest. When I hear the word "roof", I crack a little smile. When I hear the words "hybrid turf", I think of the benefits that could possibly bring us. But when I hear the words "CFL", "Argos", and "Winter Classic", it doesn't make me happy at all.

    I think you all know me well enough to understand that I don't hate the Argos or the Leafs and don't have a problem with the premise of groundsharing in principle; but I totally agree with you here. Like myself and others have said before, TFC will go from being the primary user of the facility to just another tenant, and I expect we'll be having to make even more compromises with the newcomers in the immediate future.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 04-03-2014 at 11:50 PM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  2. #2792
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    On the plus side.. TL has said (one of the news shows had it on a clip) if the Province and the Feds (either one) say no.. then MLSE goes back to the city says here are the repairs that need to be made... $15 million please. And no big reno is done everything stays as is.
    Last edited by Kaz; 04-04-2014 at 12:01 AM.

  3. #2793
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzy View Post
    I'll take one step at a time, thanx ....I guess we could have waited forever for the perfect solution and have no soccer , sounds like the way Toronto goes about it's business always . Think TTC transit , waterfront...............Like our political process , I'm so tired of putting things off. I'll take watching our team now and in a revamped stadium with more fans soon thanx. A little entertainment , which I'll pay for, is fine by me. Tiring
    I can't find much to be impressed about with this stadium. If we are talking risk/reward this is picking up pennies in front of a steamroller. We get a minimal roof that doesn't even solve half the weather problems at the stadium, all for the mere price of maybe ruining the playing surface and holding capacity we may or may not be able to fill.

    Hey if it's going to reno, fine but at least do if for something decent. This stadium is third class before a shovel even hits the ground.

  4. #2794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    On the plus side.. TL has said (one of the news shows had it on a clip) if the Province and the Feds (either one) say no.. then MLSE goes back to the city says here are the repairs that need to be made... $15 million please. And no big reno is done everything stays as is.
    Ah a version of the "if you don't support us with hand outs, we will take our toys and leave" strategy.

    Corporations have used it by threatening to leave a state or province if they don't get what they want. Sports teams have sure used it, primarily for stadiums.

    This is a bit of a twist since MLSE can't pack up and leave.

    So riddle me this. If the City is ultimately responsible for repairs, is this new stadium ever going to need repairs too? If $15m is really what it costs them for repairs every 8 years, how are they ever going to make money on this "investment"?

    Second riddle. Wouldn't maintanence be considered part of operating expenses? If so, then MLSE and the City are jointly responsible as per the management agreement. Did TL mention that in his threat?
    Last edited by Pookie; 04-04-2014 at 06:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    What is going on at BMO is the biggest story in this town in 25 years.

    Who knows what will happen with Leiweke, Bradley, Defoe? People come and go (except Clarkson Billy - he's staying!)

    But this building, what happens now, we'll live with it for most of our lives.
    Funny sad when you think about it because one could just look at every major stadium here as the next mistake.

    Mistake by the Lake.
    Whatever Concrete Kingdom nickname we want to give the moodless Skydome.
    Next...
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

  6. #2796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    So riddle me this. If the City is ultimately responsible for repairs, is this new stadium ever going to need repairs too? If $15m is really what it costs them for repairs every 8 years, how are they ever going to make money on this "investment"?

    Second riddle. Wouldn't maintanence be considered part of operating expenses? If so, then MLSE and the City are jointly responsible as per the management agreement. Did TL mention that in his threat?
    Under the current agreement, the city is on the hook for 50% of all repairs. That's where the $15 million within two years comes from.

    However, under the new expansion agreement the city will NOT be responsible for any repairs whatsoever. The city manager confirmed as much during council yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post

    So riddle me this. If the City is ultimately responsible for repairs, is this new stadium ever going to need repairs too? If $15m is really what it costs them for repairs every 8 years, how are they ever going to make money on this "investment"?
    ..
    Lack of a roof kills crappy concrete.

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    So if that is fact true and MLSE will hand the City a bill for $7.5M (if it doesn't get a fed/provincial hand out) doesn't that raise alarms bells with anyone within council, the press or tax payers?

    Forget the expansion for a moment. Consider the original deal.

    A stadium that makes a few hundred thousand a year for the city as it tries to repay it's original investment will cost an additional (estimated mind you) $7.5M now and likely again in less than 10 years?

    Where is this mysterious profit?

  9. #2799
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    I know if bmo field is not ready to play on that tim hortons field in Hamilton is open and is a fifa soccer field.

  10. #2800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    So if that is fact true and MLSE will hand the City a bill for $7.5M (if it doesn't get a fed/provincial hand out) doesn't that raise alarms bells with anyone within council, the press or tax payers?

    Forget the expansion for a moment. Consider the original deal.

    A stadium that makes a few hundred thousand a year for the city as it tries to repay it's original investment will cost an additional (estimated mind you) $7.5M now and likely again in less than 10 years?

    Where is this mysterious profit?
    if the city give mlse 10$m mlse will give them back 15$m in 10 to 20 year but for that to work the gov has to pony up money as well or the city has to pay 30 to $40m for repairs.

  11. #2801
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    Quote Originally Posted by nascarguy View Post
    I know if bmo field is not ready to play on that tim hortons field in Hamilton is open and is a fifa soccer field.
    Timbit soccer, nice!

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    No mention of my Supporters Gate btw.

    Disappointing.

  13. #2803
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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    Lack of a roof kills crappy concrete.
    It's amazing this city changes the oil in the buses and doesn't just drive them until they seize up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nascarguy View Post
    I know if bmo field is not ready to play on that tim hortons field in Hamilton is open and is a fifa soccer field.
    No. Just NO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nascarguy View Post
    if the city give mlse 10$m mlse will give them back 15$m in 10 to 20 year but for that to work the gov has to pony up money as well or the city has to pay 30 to $40m for repairs.
    I think you are missing my point.

    Forget the proposed deal for a minute.

    The current deal was said to be good and profitable for the City. It was rumoured to make a few hundred grand for the City each year. Of course, there was the original investment the City made of $9.8M that needs to be accounted for in this profit equation.

    Now, MLSE is saying that the City… just 8 years into a 20 year deal… is on the hook for $7.5M in repairs that are supposedly necessary. (of course this bill goes away if the new deal goes through… see, taking my toys and leaving strategy).

    How then at $17.3M of City funds ($9.8M + $7.5M) is this original deal a good one for the City of Toronto and its taxpayers? Let's also assume that if the thing costs the City about $1M in repairs per year in it's current state, with 12 more years to go, how is this not a financial sinkhole?

    And the kicker? The ones that were responsible for the design and construction of it are saying that repairs are necessary because they "didn't build it well."

    F Me. Where do I get some of these hand outs?

  16. #2806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    Anyone seen this? I had no idea so much of the ACC was retractable. I have a lot more faith in the quality...
    The Pitch and Paint are now my only concerns.

    I've seen those retractable seats at a few NHL arenas, but those are significantly smaller that what will be at BMO, in both width and height/number of rows. Also the ACC seats aren't exposed to the elements every day of the year, and they don't have a few thousand people jumping on them for 2 hours every other weekend.

    There's nothing under those ACC seats. There's an entire row of concessions stands/bathrooms under BMO's south stands, those are going to have to be moved completely out from under the stands, 40ish feet south. I don't think I've seen any mention of moving this yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nascarguy View Post
    I know if bmo field is not ready to play on that tim hortons field in Hamilton is open and is a fifa soccer field.

    Where's Hamilton?


    (lol).
    Last edited by InDa_110; 04-04-2014 at 09:47 AM.

  18. #2808
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahuuu View Post
    I'm assuming the cost of my seats at the top of 110 this season, will be comparable to the price of seats at the top of 210 next season.
    How much were those this year?

  19. #2809
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    So if that is fact true and MLSE will hand the City a bill for $7.5M (if it doesn't get a fed/provincial hand out) doesn't that raise alarms bells with anyone within council, the press or tax payers?
    I should clarify my earlier explanation on the repair bill. The total cost within the next two years is estimated at $30 million, of which the city is on the hook for $15 million, not $7.5 million.

    Looking at a 15 mil immediate cost with even more repairs in the future versus a 10 mil immediate cost with no repair bill and increased annual revenue.

    Not to mention how one councillor brought up the fact that a massive investment will add a large amount of equity into a city-owned facility which in turn makes S&P and their other lenders happy. That could help down the line when they need to borrow for something like a.........downtown relief line

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahuuu View Post

    There's nothing under those ACC seats. There's an entire row of concessions stands/bathrooms under BMO's south stands, those are going to have to be moved completely out from under the stands, 40ish feet south. I don't think I've seen any mention of moving this yet.
    The concourse is going to be built all around. Access to the seats will from the concourse level. As for the washrooms and concessions, I am assuming they will trash them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Let's also assume that if the thing costs the City about $1M in repairs per year in it's current state, with 12 more years to go, how is this not a financial sinkhole?
    I believe the annual finances out of the Ex include regular maintenance costs. Despite that, they still report a profit.

    This $30 million repair job, split 15's, is apparently for the concrete blasted by less than a decade's worth of rain. I get what you're saying, that repair bill alone makes the original/current deal not so glamorous.

    But as the city manager said yesterday, the new deal takes virtually all the risk away from the city and drops it in MLSE's lap.

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    will ther be a increase in seating in the south end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie View Post
    will ther be a increase in seating in the south end?
    Unconfirmed.

    I've also been told that there has been talk of replacing the pitch-level seats and bar stools/tables with a couple rows of premium leather racing-car type seats. MLSE talked about it on some level, anyway. Although I'd imagine they'd at least provide those for the playing staff.

  24. #2814
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahuuu View Post
    I've seen those retractable seats at a few NHL arenas, but those are significantly smaller that what will be at BMO, in both width and height/number of rows. Also the ACC seats aren't exposed to the elements every day of the year, and they don't have a few thousand people jumping on them for 2 hours every other weekend.

    There's nothing under those ACC seats. There's an entire row of concessions stands/bathrooms under BMO's south stands, those are going to have to be moved completely out from under the stands, 40ish feet south. I don't think I've seen any mention of moving this yet.
    The concessions and toilets will be above the south stand seating and the seats will retract underneath it.

    Think of the west stand lower tier where you walk down to your seats from the concourse.

  25. #2815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    So if that is fact true and MLSE will hand the City a bill for $7.5M (if it doesn't get a fed/provincial hand out) doesn't that raise alarms bells with anyone within council, the press or tax payers?

    Forget the expansion for a moment. Consider the original deal.

    A stadium that makes a few hundred thousand a year for the city as it tries to repay it's original investment will cost an additional (estimated mind you) $7.5M now and likely again in less than 10 years?

    Where is this mysterious profit?
    Well first it's not $15 million it's $30 million in total repairs because it was built so cheaply.

    No one wanted to put the money up, much like Mastercard Centre. (which is the stick up that other councillors bum) and MLSE is saying let us fix this and make it right. If you don't want us to, that's fine we can leave the stadium as is and we will honour the original agreement. That the city made, the City should be happy that MLSE said they would take on 50% of the repairs. It's the Cities Stadium MLSE is just a Tenant.

    BMO is not in the same class as Rogers or ACC. BMO is Lamport Stadium, or more aptly Master Card Centre. If Master Card Centre needs repairs should MLSE (who are managing it for the city) pay for repairs? If you rent a house from someone and the roof is leaking do you pay to repair it? No the owner pays.

    BMO is a City own Stadium on City owned Land. It is managed by MLSE as part of the tenancy agreement but is in no way owned by MLSE. Part of that management agreement was that MLSE would take on 50% of Capital Maintenance for the city. Meaning MLSE would pay 50% of repairs for the city. Like that $30 million in repairs coming up, so the city wasn't on the hook for all of it. Which will save the city $15 million because MLSE will pay half.

    The stadium took so long to be built because of the Argo's fucking around that it ended up at the EX and it looks like no one bothered to take the time to make sure that was going to handle the weather. It was built on the cheap and now we are paying of that.

    MLSE when BMO was built wasn't exactly a company that spent money freely. TL is saying it was built badly. Lets fix it, this will be good for everyone long term.

    For the money MLSE is willing to spend they could almost build a new stadium. Instead they are sitting by willing to fix a poorly built stadium because old MLSE didn't want to put the money in for a team that no one knew it would work and likely due to time issues. MLSE is now saying look the deal the City made wasn't great long term and the stadium wasn't built really well and so lets fix that. Lets do the repairs that are needed on the west and east stands, Reinforce and add a level to the east, tear out the north and south put new seating there add a concourse and a roof to help protect against the elements and adjust to let the CFL be able to play there.. and make the stadium a better venue over all

    And for that MLSE will manage the stadium for 10 additional years, give the city more of the profits (all parking) pay back the money the city put in now and re do the deal so MLSE is doing all the repairs on the Cities stadium.

    Pookie I'm a little worried as you seem to complain a lot but you haven't followed this close enough to have a full set of information to make the decisions you have.

    Either trust council or do the research. (I don't recommend trusting council most of the time)

    I'm still looking into it because so little information is out there. It's a good deal. My opinion has changed a few times as I get more information. It may change again. Right now it looks like a good deal for the city.

    Think about it this way.

    You rent a store front. You run your business and you make money, you pay your rent. If you renovate the store it comes out of your pocket but you need the landlord permission. It's the landlord not the tenant responsible to do foundation repairs, roof leaks and the like. When you move in you say look I like this place I plan on being here a while and I'm doing well, I'll split repair costs with you so they can be done faster and you won't have to over see them as much. The Landlord is going to say.. sure that it a good deal.

    If you owned a building and your tenant said hey I'm doing well and I want to add a $90,000 addition at my own expense I'll extend my lease by 10 years and take over all capital repairs for you, but I need you to put in $10,000 to help repair the foundation that was going to cost you $15,000. You aren't going to say no. You certainly aren't going to say.. well if you are doing so well you have money for the rest you should put in the money for all the foundation. Your tenant would say.. you know no I'm not going to do that it's your building... forget the reno. Rob Ford is saying they should pay for all the repairs to a city building... why should the city pay for a city building. MLSE is saying we're looking to do a lot here we are asking for some help in good faith for your building.
    Last edited by Kaz; 04-04-2014 at 11:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post
    On the plus side.. TL has said (one of the news shows had it on a clip) if the Province and the Feds (either one) say no.. then MLSE goes back to the city says here are the repairs that need to be made... $15 million please. And no big reno is done everything stays as is.
    This is what I have been saying on here. It's really up to feds and provincial government that will determine if BMO field will be rebuild or not. Now we got an answer straight from horse's mouth that if they don't get $20 million from both government, then this deal is dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    So riddle me this. If the City is ultimately responsible for repairs, is this new stadium ever going to need repairs too? If $15m is really what it costs them for repairs every 8 years, how are they ever going to make money on this "investment"?
    Great point. How much is this stadium even worth (not including the cost of the land)? That number sounds extremely high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaz View Post

    BMO is not in the same class as Rogers or ACC. BMO is Lamport Stadium, or more aptly Master Card Centre.
    Exactly. This is why Ensco says this issue is so important. If this goes through and BMO gets renovated to the specs being talked about now, that will be it for outdoor stadiums in this city for a long, long time.

    And this city needs a much better outdoor stadium than a renovated BMO.

    Oh, I know, someone's going to say, "NFL." The same thing we've been saying in Toronto since the 1970s.... Take that out of the discussion and maybe there would be some pressure for MLSE to build the best stadium in MLS with an eye towards soccer being the main summer sport - which maybe it could be....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Exactly. This is why Ensco says this issue is so important. If this goes through and BMO gets renovated to the specs being talked about now, that will be it for outdoor stadiums in this city for a long, long time.

    And this city needs a much better outdoor stadium than a renovated BMO.

    Oh, I know, someone's going to say, "NFL." The same thing we've been saying in Toronto since the 1970s.... Take that out of the discussion and maybe there would be some pressure for MLSE to build the best stadium in MLS with an eye towards soccer being the main summer sport - which maybe it could be....
    This is already it for Outdoor stadiums.. short of tearing BMO down and rebuilding there is no more Stadiums until the Rogers Centre is gone.

    The City shouldn't want this deal to die... what happens when the deal with MLSE is done..

    MLSE will build a new stadium either in Downsview or else where in the GTA (or moved to another city) and BMO will be left to rot like the old Exhibition stadium. The Argo's will also need to leave because they have no place to play.

    Then the City looses the Argo's, has a useless stadium collecting dust as a 20,000 seat Lamport stadium on the lack, with bugs, and rain and winter damage, that eventually will just be torn down again.

    The other thing I'm confused about it what is with the penis envy people have about the stadium?

    I've never had an issue with it. I don't have Season Seats. I do get out when I can. (sadly it's was October 2011 the last time I was at BMO (March 2012 for CCL) MLSE hasn't deserved my money. But I've sat in many parts of the stadium been at CCL games, the MLS Cup, regular season, and all through out the year from May to November.

    With the exception of bugs in May 2009 I've never been upset, or felt slighted by the stadium.

    I love the stadium being odd. (to an extent) it gives it a old world feel, it makes it feel a little like it has more history then it does.

    The changes will make it as large or larger then half the Premier league stadiums. Most of which are much older. And have been renovated in odd ways.

    This will be the Second BMO change or significance, first major reno, and I suspect it won't be the last. If 30,000 seats are filed regularly, and 25,000 Argo seats are sold regularly, I'm willing to bet a new roof, and 10,000 more seats get added permanently 10-20 years down the line, with a new facade.

    and really that is what people are whining about now.. first there was no roof, now there is likely going to be a roof but it isn't pretty enough. in the early (ie not final) designs.

    I want a stadium with history. I think BMO will be that stadium.

    Give it time.. lets see if everything happens (province is the next hurdle) and then lets see the final design before we get too a head of our selves.
    Last edited by Kaz; 04-04-2014 at 01:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InDa_110 View Post
    How much were those this year?
    about $225, i don't remember the exact amount.

 

 

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