Bmo Field Expansion

[greatwhitenorf]

First and foremost, my conclusions about the Argos begin and end with the word doomed. Why would anyone operating a stadium want to cultivate the presence of a team on life support as a tenant? Can they make rent? Right now, almost all Argos games are meaningless.

In the daily scheme of things here in Toronto, they are on a similar plateau as the Marlies, barely above the Mississauga Steelheads/St.Mike's Majors/Icedogs OHL operations. Many of us know they're there, endorse their existence, but can't be arsed to actually 'care' about them, let alone have meaningful, regular discussions about them. But let's just assume, for a moment, they aren't doomed. Something has to change to make us care about the Argos.

Being second-choice tenants hasn't worked at the dome. Rogers has decided they are more trouble than they're worth. Being second-choice tenants in a soccer stadium won't work either. It won't create a cultural foundation on which to rebuild awareness of the game and fan loyalty. To begin do that, they need to gather all elements of the Canadian football community to a focal point and constantly begin to draw people to their park who do like the Canadian game. Bring in high-profile high school games, showcase the university level, nurture what's left of their fan base. Varsity used to host the Vanier Cup and it was a wild and wonderful occasion. The Argos need to be central to re-creating that. It won't happen at a red-coloured, TFC-branded soccer stadium.

Just like TFC, the Argos have a wealthy owner who can make serious contributions toward a proper home for the Argos. Lovely man, he regularly gives away tens of millions to charitable causes. His Argos are in need of his benevolence right now. He's got the financial wherewithal, and certainly the contacts to find more, to make the sort of contribution to a stadium that MLSE are making to the expansion of BMO Field. Whether he actually cares enough is debatable. If he cared enough might he not have already acted more decisively?

The Argos can't, and shouldn't even try, to alter what BMO Field has become. But they could create a nice legacy for the Pan-Am games stadium site by smartly designing and wisely budgeting for a new, growable stadium at York U. The footprint of land is there and a well-designed facility would contain retractable seats to allow track and field events to continue. It will definitely need some creative work to gain government support, but it's not unfeasible being situated on university property and could be nicely shaped as funding to ensure the PanAm legacy delivers a usable product for years to come. A smart little 20,000-seater for regular season play and they can rent the dome for playoffs and Grey Cup.

Somewhere in all of this, the CFL itself has to become more involved. The current commissioner is Mark Cohon, son of George Cohon, a major wheel with McDonalds restaurants in Canada. There are few people better connected with the financial, political and social communities in Toronto than George Cohon. You should see him work a room at a charity event - wink here, shoulder pat there, nudge of the elbow and suggestively raised eyebrow and winning smiles through it all. At the end of the night, he's tapped his friends and associates and somewhere someone is compiling telephone number-sized donations. I find it hard to believe that if Mark Cohon wanted to pass the hat for the Argos that Daddy-O couldn't put his considerable charm behind the cause to great effect. Mark's CFL administration has had to deal with the brushfire of declining participation. To his credit, he's secured the sponsorship of Nissan to fund 21 high school football programs. An Argos stadium project needs this kind of initiative.

Somewhere, somehow and sometime very soon, the Argos have to stop being the ugly stepchild of sports in this city. Or they'll just stop being. The solution they require shouldn't be a repeat of the mistake of moving into another team's stadium. And let's be clear, the dome was always a baseball-first facility. Nor should a solution be imposed to the inconvenience and displeasure of fans of another sport.

Which brings us to your query about prime vs. secondary. When the secondary tenants needs are a long-term detriment to the primary tenant's needs, it's not a good thing. CFL football will not enhance the quality of TFC's soccer (cue crap soccer jokes). If you wonder about the importance of that, then perhaps you are a CFL fan more than a TFC fan. When one sport can bring in 30 or more events to the other's 10, it's clear what the prime product is.

It's not MLSE that need to build a new stadium, it's the Argos and the CFL. Even if MLSE chose to abandon BMO Field - office staff have admitted to me that it's been considered - where would they build it? BMO Field was built to house and showcase soccer and it's done a terrific job for what it is. It's well placed to deliver a product that is clearly a growing favorite in Toronto. The CFL fan base is not located within the heart of the 416. It is clearly coming from outlying areas, hence it makes more sense for the Argos to play in a facility closer to where that fan base is. And if they were to actually develop a new audience within Toronto proper, the new subway station at York U is there for rapid transit access.

[kodiakTFC]

First and foremost, my conclusions about the Argos begin and end with the word doomed. Why would anyone operating a stadium want to cultivate the presence of a team on life support as a tenant? Can they make rent? Right now, almost all Argos games are meaningless.

In the daily scheme of things here in Toronto, they are on a similar plateau as the Marlies, barely above the Mississauga Steelheads/St.Mike's Majors/Icedogs OHL operations. Many of us know they're there, endorse their existence, but can't be arsed to actually 'care' about them, let alone have meaningful, regular discussions about them. But let's just assume, for a moment, they aren't doomed. Something has to change to make us care about the Argos.

Being second-choice tenants hasn't worked at the dome. Rogers has decided they are more trouble than they're worth. Being second-choice tenants in a soccer stadium won't work either. It won't create a cultural foundation on which to rebuild awareness of the game and fan loyalty. To begin do that, they need to gather all elements of the Canadian football community to a focal point and constantly begin to draw people to their park who do like the Canadian game. Bring in high-profile high school games, showcase the university level, nurture what's left of their fan base. Varsity used to host the Vanier Cup and it was a wild and wonderful occasion. The Argos need to be central to re-creating that. It won't happen at a red-coloured, TFC-branded soccer stadium.

Just like TFC, the Argos have a wealthy owner who can make serious contributions toward a proper home for the Argos. Lovely man, he regularly gives away tens of millions to charitable causes. His Argos are in need of his benevolence right now. He's got the financial wherewithal, and certainly the contacts to find more, to make the sort of contribution to a stadium that MLSE are making to the expansion of BMO Field. Whether he actually cares enough is debatable. If he cared enough might he not have already acted more decisively?

The Argos can't, and shouldn't even try, to alter what BMO Field has become. But they could create a nice legacy for the Pan-Am games stadium site by smartly designing and wisely budgeting for a new, growable stadium at York U. The footprint of land is there and a well-designed facility would contain retractable seats to allow track and field events to continue. It will definitely need some creative work to gain government support, but it's not unfeasible being situated on university property and could be nicely shaped as funding to ensure the PanAm legacy delivers a usable product for years to come. A smart little 20,000-seater for regular season play and they can rent the dome for playoffs and Grey Cup.

Somewhere in all of this, the CFL itself has to become more involved. The current commissioner is Mark Cohon, son of George Cohon, a major wheel with McDonalds restaurants in Canada. There are few people better connected with the financial, political and social communities in Toronto than George Cohon. You should see him work a room at a charity event - wink here, shoulder pat there, nudge of the elbow and suggestively raised eyebrow and winning smiles through it all. At the end of the night, he's tapped his friends and associates and somewhere someone is compiling telephone number-sized donations. I find it hard to believe that if Mark Cohon wanted to pass the hat for the Argos that Daddy-O couldn't put his considerable charm behind the cause to great effect. Mark's CFL administration has had to deal with the brushfire of declining participation. To his credit, he's secured the sponsorship of Nissan to fund 21 high school football programs. An Argos stadium project needs this kind of initiative.

Somewhere, somehow and sometime very soon, the Argos have to stop being the ugly stepchild of sports in this city. Or they'll just stop being. The solution they require shouldn't be a repeat of the mistake of moving into another team's stadium. And let's be clear, the dome was always a baseball-first facility. Nor should a solution be imposed to the inconvenience and displeasure of fans of another sport.

Which brings us to your query about prime vs. secondary. When the secondary tenants needs are a long-term detriment to the primary tenant's needs, it's not a good thing. CFL football will not enhance the quality of TFC's soccer (cue crap soccer jokes). If you wonder about the importance of that, then perhaps you are a CFL fan more than a TFC fan. When one sport can bring in 30 or more events to the other's 10, it's clear what the prime product is.

It's not MLSE that need to build a new stadium, it's the Argos and the CFL. Even if MLSE chose to abandon BMO Field - office staff have admitted to me that it's been considered - where would they build it? BMO Field was built to house and showcase soccer and it's done a terrific job for what it is. It's well placed to deliver a product that is clearly a growing favorite in Toronto. The CFL fan base is not located within the heart of the 416. It is clearly coming from outlying areas, hence it makes more sense for the Argos to play in a facility closer to where that fan base is. And if they were to actually develop a new audience within Toronto proper, the new subway station at York U is there for rapid transit access.

Oh my God. This is perfect. You're a poet.

[Cashcleaner]

"Football is part of people's lives and we want to open the doors for all of society. We need the people, they spend their hearts, their emotions with us. They are the club's most important asset."

Quote taken from the above-linked BBC article about Dortmund. Quite profound.

Until MLSE are filling BMO Field's expanded capacity, their best tactic is to offer 'can't-say-no' price points. That's what got them their large fan base for Year One. Constant mis-management is now at the point of costing them that fan base. I would have dumped my season's tickets pre-Leiweke had they not rolled back prices to Day One levels. My wife wants to dump them now.

When it comes to raising ticket prices, they haven't got a leg to stand on at this point, having failed, quite miserably, to make good on promises to make the playoffs. If they've lost money on this past season, they'll just have to eat it and do a better job going forward.

As for the Argos. Have you ever heard high-school age teens discuss the CFL? We've had housefuls of them roll through in recent years, all nuts about the NFL, hockey and all kinds of soccer. Even basketball got its fair share, though the Raptors were so crap for so long. But the CFL? Never. Not once.

The team is rumoured to have sold less than 4,000 season tickets. That's the grand total, not the number of holders. They probably have a waiting list to cancel for next year. The CFL, and I say this sadly having been a staunch Argos fan growing up, is a doomed entity in Toronto.

A move to BMO would undoubtedly create a curiosity factor and there'd be an upward blip in attendance. There's nothing to suggest this brand of sport is trending upward in Southern Ontario. Soccer is quite the opposite.

So, to those doom merchants who think MLSE would think about ceasing to invest in TFC and give the Argos a preference, think again. Soccer has the potential to bring 30 or more events to BMO Field each season. the CFL can offer maybe 10 or 11 and one could hardly expect CFL ticket prices to be so high as to offset the lower game totals.

BMO Field is hardly a solution for the Argos. It's a soccer stadium and, just like at the dome, they'll be fated to being the second-string tenant. Their presence is bound there will again become an irritant for the prime tenant. In this case, the quality of the prime tenant's product will be adversely affected by a torn-up pitch.

They need to find their own home. They need a place where they can showcase the sport properly, show off many decades of history and re-tell the great stories they've had over the years. Create a home not just for the CFL, but for all levels of Canadian football, where college and high school teams can be showcased in big games. The Pan-Am games stadium site would be a good choice.

Wait a minute. Are you calling me a doom merchant, newf?

I don't think the Argos will ever be given a preference at BMO Field. I doubt many believe that to be honest. But I am concerned of a possible shift in attitude toward TFC where it will be one tenant out of many at the stadium. I don't think MLSE would ever give up on TFC, but I could see them shrugging their shoulders and cutting back support.

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that the facility itself becomes more of a focus to MLSE, simply because it has the potential to create so many more revenue streams.

[greatwhitenorf]

Wait a minute. Are you calling me a doom merchant, newf?

I don't think the Argos will ever be given a preference at BMO Field. I doubt many believe that to be honest. But I am concerned of a possible shift in attitude toward TFC where it will be one tenant out of many at the stadium. I don't think MLSE would ever give up on TFC, but I could see them shrugging their shoulders and cutting back support.

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that the facility itself becomes more of a focus to MLSE, simply because it has the potential to create so many more revenue streams.

MLSE don't need more revenue streams. They need winning teams. When that happens, that team's revenue stream will become a torrent.

Right now, they have a revenue stream in the form of TFC soccer games that is doing very nicely for them. It's fine to add a revenue stream that doesn't impair the quality of that product, or create potential scheduling headaches. Outdoor Leafs games in the dead of winter is an excellent idea. I wholeheartedly support that.

The Argos aren't a revenue stream. They haven't been a source of net income since the '70s. They are proven money losers. Adding ten Argos games that will undoubtedly cause problems with the playing surface for soccer - and create nightmares when the playoffs roll around for either club - is a bad idea.

Tim Leiweke said it would be fine to have both sports play on some kind of hybrid grass. Tim Leiweke's a walking, talking fertilizer factory.

The Argos at BMO will be terrible for soccer. If MLSE roll over and allow this, it tells me they don't give a damn about their long-suffering-yet-highly-supportive soccer fans. Things are already getting dicey when it comes to TFC. Make it worse by making bad stadium decisions and they will lose fans who will walk away for good. It happened to the Argos. It can happen to TFC.

[Mulder]

MLSE don't need more revenue streams. They need winning teams. When that happens, that team's revenue stream will become a torrent.

Right now, they have a revenue stream in the form of TFC soccer games that is doing very nicely for them. It's fine to add a revenue stream that doesn't impair the quality of that product, or create potential scheduling headaches. Outdoor Leafs games in the dead of winter is an excellent idea. I wholeheartedly support that.

The Argos aren't a revenue stream. They haven't been a source of net income since the '70s. They are proven money losers. Adding ten Argos games that will undoubtedly cause problems with the playing surface for soccer - and create nightmares when the playoffs roll around for either club - is a bad idea.

Tim Leiweke said it would be fine to have both sports play on some kind of hybrid grass. Tim Leiweke's a walking, talking fertilizer factory.

The Argos at BMO will be terrible for soccer. If MLSE roll over and allow this, it tells me they don't give a damn about their long-suffering-yet-highly-supportive soccer fans. Things are already getting dicey when it comes to TFC. Make it worse by making bad stadium decisions and they will lose fans who will walk away for good. It happened to the Argos. It can happen to TFC.

Oh Boy, Keep dreaming.

You will be one surprised person when there is an off-season announcement about the stadium.

[OgtheDim]

Oh Boy, Keep dreaming.

You will be one surprised person when there is an off-season announcement about the stadium.

Well, we've beem waiting for Braley to get up off his posterior and do something for a few years. As the ball is in his court (with the Argos losing money operationally, it certainly isn't in MLSE's interest to buy this team), the clock is ticking.

[Cashcleaner]

MLSE don't need more revenue streams. They need winning teams. When that happens, that team's revenue stream will become a torrent.

MSLE always wants more revenue streams. Every business on Earth wants that. It's Economics 101. It's why they've gotten into operations management for facilities in other cities. Heck, it's why they got into the Real Estate business.

Right now, they have a revenue stream in the form of TFC soccer games that is doing very nicely for them. It's fine to add a revenue stream that doesn't impair the quality of that product, or create potential scheduling headaches. Outdoor Leafs games in the dead of winter is an excellent idea. I wholeheartedly support that.

The Argos aren't a revenue stream. They haven't been a source of net income since the '70s. They are proven money losers. Adding ten Argos games that will undoubtedly cause problems with the playing surface for soccer - and create nightmares when the playoffs roll around for either club - is a bad idea.

MLSE won't be owning and the Argos though. Instead, they will be providing a service to them (use of the facilities and management of the grounds) and charging them accordingly. It will likely be similar to the sort of relationship a property manager or landlord has with a tenant. MLSE won't care how well the Argos do or how much money the team is generating - that's irrelevant. They'll be just interested in whether or not they're getting the rent on time.

Tim Leiweke said it would be fine to have both sports play on some kind of hybrid grass. Tim Leiweke's a walking, talking fertilizer factory.

The Argos at BMO will be terrible for soccer. If MLSE roll over and allow this, it tells me they don't give a damn about their long-suffering-yet-highly-supportive soccer fans. Things are already getting dicey when it comes to TFC. Make it worse by making bad stadium decisions and they will lose fans who will walk away for good. It happened to the Argos. It can happen to TFC.

I agree for the most part. As I've mentioned before, the proposal of Argos at BMO Field means now the fans of two clubs will have to put up with an reduced gameday experience. The hybrid turf doesn't bother me so much, but that's one compromise out of many that would have to be made on our part and I don't buy the company line that we won't notice any different at all.

[dutch]

MLSE is about money, nothing else. only reason theyre not on the TSX is greed. Argos sell tickets, jerseys and tv time on bogers (win! they dont have to pay for tv time) theyre so excited they got hardwood over this little deal that makes cordwood of dough on theyre small investment. argos sold to MLSE for a song and dance. how do you think MLSE got so big in the first place? they'll have washable lines on the field for each sport every night. its real money to MLSE. fuck TFC, theyre like 1/32 of our income stream anyways.

I live in Oshawa and the GM center (new stadium 7500 cap, oshawa generals) is run and operated by MLSE like many others, why? the city or private enterprise could have run it. MLSE is the company to bring in if you own a arena and want to maximise profits or add to your income stream. there will be argos at BMO because people buy argos tickets..it wont be called BMO then, somebody else will pay them for the rights to the name of the stadium. which house 2 teams, ie multiple streams of income. you see the pattern..

geezus murphy that was my 100th post. not bad. still wish I could find my old sign in from 2008. pisses me off

[Pookie]

Greatwhitenorf, your premise that the Argos are money losers is one thing.

But owning the Argos (or at least having a stadium to host them) gets a ticket to enter the Grey Cup sweepstakes. Something Tim L mentioned quite frequently in the desire to expand to stadium to 40,000. Grey Cup in 2012 profited $10m according to reports.

I don't think they will build the colour scheme around the Argos and market it as their place. I would expect more neutral colours going forward and priority over the pitch will shift depending on the game.

The Argos may play there rent free for all we know. And in doing so, the stadium makes its money on concessions, parking and any ticket share on what would have otherwise been an empty night.

I would end with a caution. To claim a non publicly traded firm is losing money needs to be met with a raised eyebrow. And even if it is, buying paper losses can help offset taxes so hold value in some form.

I believe that the CFL will step in and find the CFL retrofit money. The government will kick in some kind of tourism/heritage money. MLSE will then step in and buy them and they will get an attendance boost in their first couple of seasons. And for the most part, I believe both fan bases will be happy right up until a spell of bad weather doesn't allow the pitch to recover.

I say that because this franchise won't fold. The CFL won't allow it to. It has no place to play after 2017. Like TFC, it's owners are not prepared to take the risk and build their own stadium. BMO is all that is left and it has the foundation that was built to allow it to be expanded.

Can't see how that ends any differently.

[OgtheDim]

Grey Cup isn't that much money pookie. Not for MLSE.

That's a lot of ownership hassle for what...$10 million?....every 8-10 years.

They can do 1 outdoor Leaf game and make more money.

As for the claim about them losing money, Braley said so. The other CFL teams avoid that talk at all costs. Braley has been open about that sort of stuff since back in the days when he owned the Ti-Cats.


There is no reason for MLSE to buy this franchise. The operating costs are quite high compared to TFC. They would make more money renting out BMO to the Argos then with owning them. Which is more likely to happen. And, there is a strong business case to be made that the Argos would do better with a stadium somewhere else.

We'll see what happens, but there is a reason why this hasn't been done yet. I suspect MLSE is playing hardball with the CFL and Braley.

[David_Oliveira]

So had anyone been by BMO to check out the site? I wonder what kind of progress has been made now that the stadium is essentially "shutdown"for the season.

[Pookie]

Grey Cup isn't that much money pookie. Not for MLSE.

That's a lot of ownership hassle for what...$10 million?....every 8-10 years.

They can do 1 outdoor Leaf game and make more money.

As for the claim about them losing money, Braley said so. The other CFL teams avoid that talk at all costs. Braley has been open about that sort of stuff since back in the days when he owned the Ti-Cats.


There is no reason for MLSE to buy this franchise. The operating costs are quite high compared to TFC. They would make more money renting out BMO to the Argos then with owning them. Which is more likely to happen. And, there is a strong business case to be made that the Argos would do better with a stadium somewhere else.

We'll see what happens, but there is a reason why this hasn't been done yet. I suspect MLSE is playing hardball with the CFL and Braley.

And there is a reason that the contract was written the way it was.

In any event, I'm with you on the hassle front. It's a lot of money. We have all speculated as to why. Winter Classics for the Leafs 2017 100th Anniversary season aside, it's a lot of renovation to do to a building you don't own. Not many of the HGTV renovation programs show renters gutting kitchens and taking down walls. This is the one piece of the puzzle that escapes me.

[Huyton]

So had anyone been by BMO to check out the site? I wonder what kind of progress has been made now that the stadium is essentially "shutdown"for the season.

I'd like to see a "webcam" type of feed.

[Areathrasher]

So had anyone been by BMO to check out the site? I wonder what kind of progress has been made now that the stadium is essentially "shutdown"for the season.

It's basically just a giant hole behind the east stand atm. Doing excavation.

[deltox]

im not sure if anyone has asked yet...but is anyone elses seats missing in the new renderings? kinda feel like im gonna be moved next yr

[prizby]

Oh Boy, Keep dreaming.

You will be one surprised person when there is an off-season announcement about the stadium.

did someone win lotto max and donate $20M

[prizby]

Greatwhitenorf, your premise that the Argos are money losers is one thing.

But owning the Argos (or at least having a stadium to host them) gets a ticket to enter the Grey Cup sweepstakes. Something Tim L mentioned quite frequently in the desire to expand to stadium to 40,000. Grey Cup in 2012 profited $10m according to reports.

Grey Cup goes to the highest bidder who pay the CFL...does $10M profit 1 year make up for 8 years of losing money...nope

[Pookie]

Grey Cup goes to the highest bidder who pay the CFL...does $10M profit 1 year make up for 8 years of losing money...nope

Hopefully Braley or others associated with this deal will read this thread. Then they can get to work on fixing Braley's financial portfolio, changing the BMO contract, changing the financial forecasts, undo the sponsorship deals and tv contracts, etc, etc. It's a wonder it all moved ahead with all this doom and gloom on the financial front eh?

[OgtheDim]

Hopefully Braley or others associated with this deal will read this thread. Then they can get to work on fixing Braley's financial portfolio, changing the BMO contract, changing the financial forecasts, undo the sponsorship deals and tv contracts, etc, etc. It's a wonder it all moved ahead with all this doom and gloom on the financial front eh?

It hasn't moved forward on the local front. There are no deals taking BMO into account. We'll see if something happens before May but there's no indication that anything is going on.

[greatwhitenorf]

Oh Boy, Keep dreaming.

You will be one surprised person when there is an off-season announcement about the stadium.

Thank you Mulder for reading and responding. Your eternal vigilance on another sport's stadium thread is something we assume to be perpetual and omnipresent, given the parlous, insecure state of the Argos. Is this you prepping for a day when you won't have an Toronto Argos thread to read/monitor/administer?

At no point in my postings have I said the Argos aren't going to BMO. As bad an idea as it is, the broad assumption is that they are. TFC certainly don't merit an expanded capacity, so we know who it's being done for. I can be cynical about how MLSE operate, but I won't be surprised. But it's also noted that you haven't countered any other points made about the sad, withering plight of the Argos, so, given your all-knowing capacity, it must all be true.

Our condolences.

Other than some patchwork solution to hop lily pads and become another tier-two tenant in another team's stadium, what great stadium vision do you have to offer to revive the fading Argos and the precipitous decline in CFL interest amongst those 40 and younger in Toronto?

[TFC07]

Another factor to expanding BMO field to 30K-40K is to host more soccer games especially in the summertime when we got major European clubs training in North America. Also, to host international friendly games between major soccer nations (which we rarely see in Toronto).

This isn't all about TFC or Argos/CFL, money being invested from MLSE is to host other events annually as well.

[deltox]

Another factor to expanding BMO field to 30K-40K is to host more soccer games especially in the summertime when we got major European clubs training in North America. Also, to host international friendly games between major soccer nations (which we rarely see in Toronto).

This isn't all about TFC or Argos/CFL, money being invested from MLSE is to host other events annually as well.

And outdoor leaf games

[Fort York Redcoat]

Thank you Mulder for reading and responding. Your eternal vigilance on another sport's stadium thread is something we assume to be perpetual and omnipresent, given the parlous, insecure state of the Argos. Is this you prepping for a day when you won't have an Toronto Argos thread to read/monitor/administer?

At no point in my postings have I said the Argos aren't going to BMO. As bad an idea as it is, the broad assumption is that they are. TFC certainly don't merit an expanded capacity, so we know who it's being done for. I can be cynical about how MLSE operate, but I won't be surprised. But it's also noted that you haven't countered any other points made about the sad, withering plight of the Argos, so, given your all-knowing capacity, it must all be true.

Our condolences.

Other than some patchwork solution to hop lily pads and become another tier-two tenant in another team's stadium, what great stadium vision do you have to offer to revive the fading Argos and the precipitous decline in CFL interest amongst those 40 and younger in Toronto?

I'll just head this off right away. While the mysterious Mulder only lives in threads like these he does purport to follow and root for the success of our TFC. He may correct me if I'm wrong.

But as to the Argos vision they need none further than playing the cuckoo who moves into the smaller stadium that will look full and exciting for their fans that have felt the void of an atmo at home. They hope that it will capture the feel of Montreal's move to McGill and I suspect they'd be right.

[TFC07]

Anyone watching NFL game being played at Wembley Stadium in London right now? They're playing on hybrid turf (same turf we will be using when Argos move in) which looks awful. Pitch is already all teared up by players and you can clearly see it from distance.

There's your evidence MLSE to know turf isn't good enough to have two sports play on. It's either soccer or football, they both can't share same grass or hybrid turf.

[TFC07]

And outdoor leaf games

Problem with that is NHL might now allow it or have Leafs share their profit they make from outdoor games with rest of the league.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Anyone watching NFL game being played at Wembley Stadium in London right now? They're playing on hybrid turf (same turf we will be using when Argos move in) which looks awful. Pitch is already all teared up by players and you can clearly see it from distance.

There's your evidence MLSE to know turf isn't good enough to have two sports play on. It's either soccer or football, they both can't share same grass or hybrid turf.

So much for their research to assure and placate us on the shared pitch. This will become a contention for me personally. I think the 2 of us at least should start scouting for a new Argos home since no one in their organization can manage it. Pathetic.

[TFC07]

So much for their research to assure and placate us on the shared pitch. This will become a contention for me personally. I think the 2 of us at least should start scouting for a new Argos home since no one in their organization can manage it. Pathetic.

Location isn't the main problem, it's money that's issue. Are Argos worth investing for outdoor stadium that will cost over $100 million? There's a reason why no one is really showing any real interest of buying Argos.

Only way Argos get a brand new stadium is if they have another tenant (aka professional soccer team) using it. There's a reason why some of CFL owners are looking into joining NASL or form all Canadian league (if you believe rumours being reported).

[Mulder]

Thank you Mulder for reading and responding. Your eternal vigilance on another sport's stadium thread is something we assume to be perpetual and omnipresent, given the parlous, insecure state of the Argos. Is this you prepping for a day when you won't have an Toronto Argos thread to read/monitor/administer?

Really won't have to worry about that seeing as I comment on all things CFL, I also live in Ottawa now so at least I can still comment on the Redblacks. I quit my administering gig a while ago.

At no point in my postings have I said the Argos aren't going to BMO. As bad an idea as it is, the broad assumption is that they are. TFC certainly don't merit an expanded capacity, so we know who it's being done for. I can be cynical about how MLSE operate, but I won't be surprised. But it's also noted that you haven't countered any other points made about the sad, withering plight of the Argos, so, given your all-knowing capacity, it must all be true.

Other than some patchwork solution to hop lily pads and become another tier-two tenant in another team's stadium, what great stadium vision do you have to offer to revive the fading Argos and the precipitous decline in CFL interest amongst those 40 and younger in Toronto?

Because, quite frankly, nothing I say will change your attitude. You put the Argos in the same 'Interest level' as OHL hockey in the GTA and that's where you lost me. Esp when GTA ratings for Argo games are typically that of TFC's national ratings on TSN. Worry about the plight of your own club first before drawing conclusions. Argos Good on TV in the region, Bad attendance. TFC, Good attendance, bad tv viewership. Each club has it's own issues. Which is easier to fix? I'll let you answer that one.

When I started following the Argos and became a season ticket in at the time in 2007, the stadium was much fuller. Even in 2008 I sat around alot of under 40 people who were also season ticket holders. There were quite a few incidents around the stadium that caused many people to drop their seasons. One partly being a crappy team from 2008-2011 (2010 was ok) The second was the way Rogers Centre security treated many of the fans.

Can you imagine being told at a TFC game to sit down and not cheer so loudly? Well this actually happened in 2009. In many sections around the stadium.

[Mulder]

did someone win lotto max and donate $20M

Let's just say I found it quite odd how much "Toronto Argonauts" are mentioned in the construction documents. Let alone the phase.

[OgtheDim]

Let's just say I found it quite odd how much "Toronto Argonauts" are mentioned in the construction documents. Let alone the phase.

Less then they were in the documents from a year ago, actually. Which is why there was a clause change in the summer to make phase 3 not mandatory.


You did notice that, right?

That the Argos are no longer necessary for the stadium build to go ahead?